Non bike related relay question.

[camos]

I have a submersible sump pump with a float activated switch that pumps very often but not for very long. It's a fairly low capacity 120v pump that apparently is out pumping the inflow. The float switch cannot be raised any higher. Opening up the strum box holes would probably help quite a bit but I forgot to do that during the summer and now that it is the rainy season I'm not going down the manhole to do that.

 

So, my question to those relay gurus I know hang out on here:

If another higher float switch were installed, what would be needed to have the high float activate the low float but not have the low float turn off until it has finished pumping? What I'm thinking is the high float powers up a relay that powers the pump until the low float turns the system off.

 

Any ideas or where to find such a relay?

[Eck]

My 2 cents- for what it's worth..

To me, it sounds more like you are loosing the prime, and as you are loosing it, the float slides downward to where it triggers the pump to the "on mode". It then runs until it fills up enough to where the float rises and goes into the "off mode".

 

I think you have a leak more than a relay issue.

 

Adding a relay to a higher position is not the answer to the problem and I truly don't think that will do anything except make the pump stay on LONGER until the water raises the float to THAT HIGHER LEVEL, but if the leak is there (which is what I suspect), then as the water drains out (loosing your prime) the float slides back down and there you go again.. The pump runs again.

 

 

Only other thing I can think of is that maybe you have a loose / dirty connection in the electrical side of the system. Check to see if you have same voltage at pump as you do the breaker in main breaker panel..

Edited November 16, 2015 by Eck

[camos]

My 2 cents- for what it's worth..

To me, it sounds more like you are loosing the prime, and as you are loosing it, the float slides downward to where it triggers the pump to the "on mode". It then runs until it fills up enough to where the float rises and goes into the "off mode".

I can see how you might think that, and you are partially correct, but what's happening is the flow from the catchment area is too restricted so the pump gets ahead of the flow and shutting it down. I can see it happening. There is a bit of flow back when the pump shuts off but fairly marginal. The lift is about 4 feet of 1 1/2 inch pipe before the outlet drains away so not a lot of volume back flowing. As mentioned, opening up the holes into the strum box, a 45 gallon plastic drum, would help but is probably not a complete solution. The pump float level is somewhere around 12 inches which is not very much. Had a pump with about 20 inches and it did the same thing, just not quite so often. The tank is about 20x10x4 feet filled with drain rock. My relay idea would delay pump start and allow the strum box to fill a lot more before starting. This, initially, would make for far less starting and stopping and then next summer opening up the drain holes should make it work optimally.

 

Adding a relay to a higher position is not the answer to the problem and I truly don't think that will do anything except make the pump stay on LONGER until the water raises the float to THAT HIGHER LEVEL, but if the leak is there (which is what I suspect), then as the water drains out (loosing your prime) the float slides back down and there you go again.. The pump runs again.

The point of the second float and relay is to turn on the pump only after the level has risen to the higher level, thus giving a larger volume to pump each cycle. Edited November 16, 2015 by camos

[MiCarl]

The extra water depth (head) could potentially overwhelm the seals on your pump.

 

To do what you want you'd need a couple relays, a float and switch and wire it all into the pump. It'd probably be easier and cheaper to just modify the float linkage so it has longer travel.

 

If that's not an option I have another idea. A switch above the basin attached to a rod and a float that slides on the rod. Put a stop where the float pushes up on the rod (activating the switch) when the level is up and another stop at the bottom where the weight of the float pulls the rod back down. Wire your pump through that switch. Your pump will only start with both floats up and will stop when either of them drops.

[bkuhr]

to answer your question here is a circuit with just 1 relay.

 

As water fills past the lower float, the lower float switch closes, and remains closed the entire time that water raises to the upper float.

 

As the water level raises to the level that the upper float switch closes, the power is applied thru the currently closed lower float switch, and energizes both the upper float relay ad the water pump

 

Also when the upper float relay is energized, the upper relay contact closes, and will keep this circuit energized even after the water level falls below a level that the upper float switch opens.

 

After the water lowers to a level the lower float switch opens, then the upper relay circuit will be intrupted, turning off the upper relay, and its currently closed contact, and the water pump. All is reset to restart the sequence.

[camos]

The extra water depth (head) could potentially overwhelm the seals on your pump.

 

To do what you want you'd need a couple relays, a float and switch and wire it all into the pump. It'd probably be easier and cheaper to just modify the float linkage so it has longer travel.

 

If that's not an option I have another idea. A switch above the basin attached to a rod and a float that slides on the rod. Put a stop where the float pushes up on the rod (activating the switch) when the level is up and another stop at the bottom where the weight of the float pulls the rod back down. Wire your pump through that switch. Your pump will only start with both floats up and will stop when either of them drops.

The first pump I had used a float with a mercury switch on a fairly long cord. This worked somewhat better than the one I have now as far as the frequency of pumping but sometimes the float would get snagged or jammed and would not turn off or would not turn on. That did not happen too often though.

 

I think the pump that is in use now has a float on a 10" - 12" rod. I'll have to go and look at it to make sure. That might not be too difficult to modify... depending...

 

I'll have a look at it on my next day off and in the mean time will try and sort out how to apply the other options you mentioned. Extending the range of the original float might just be the simplest way to go.

 

Thanks for the input, gives me something to think about.

[Great White]

Since youre in BC (and in the island if I remember the place), I'm assuming your house is on crawlspace.

 

Is this pump in your crawlspace?

 

Does your crawlspace have a skim coat?

 

If yes, I'd just let it run. Allowing the water to reach a deeper level in a catch basin under the skim coat increases the hydrostatic pressure under it and you can end up with dampness on the concrete skim or possibly water intrusion.

 

Same goes for a basement slab.

 

The real purpose of a sump pump is to reduce that hydrostatic pressure under the foundation. Or in some cases, it deals with roof drains.

 

If any of this is true, I'd personally just live with it until next summer when you can do more about it.

 

When we were in comox, we were on crawlspace and had the dampness and leaking issue. Had a company come in and install a pump system that looked like it would suck a Destroyer dry in 10 seconds. It would come on, run for a minute or two and shut off when it was "wet season". Because the hydrostatic pressure under the skim was kept low, the dampness issue was never a problem again.

 

Slab foundation is a little different story as its not down low enough to worry about water.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2015 by Great White

[SilvrT]

Since youre in BC (and in the island if I remember the place), I'm assuming your house is on crawlspace.

 

 

So, I'm reading this thread and curiosity got the better of me on this one. Why would you make that assumption? Is it because nobody on the island has a basement (frankly, I wouldn't know that being I'm on the mainland) or is it because anywhere near the coast (such as the island) receives too much rain to have a basement (I'm sure I've been in houses with basements around here)?

[Leland]

I believe that you are correct that the pump is just out pumping the inflow. Another option is to reduce the pumps flow by throttling a valve. Since the pump is pumping less water, it will use less power. You don't state what type of 1½" pipe but I am assuming plastic (ABS or PVC). Maybe a valve like this? https://www.grainger.com/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-PVC-Ball-Valve-32H952 Just looking at the picture of the valve, I wonder if you got an 1¼" valve, if you could slip an 1½" "No Hub" coupling https://www.grainger.com/product/2ZU19?gclid=CPGVyY7LmMkCFZU1aQod5MYEBQ&cm_mmc=PPC:GOOGLEPLAA-_-Plumbing-_-Pipe%20Fittings%20and%20Couplings-_-2ZU19&AL!2966!3!50916794037!!!g!82128168357!&ef_id=VGE1bAAAAFLLT0Jf:20151117231459:s over the outside of the valve? Would make it easy to install.

[Great White]

So, I'm reading this thread and curiosity got the better of me on this one. Why would you make that assumption? Is it because nobody on the island has a basement (frankly, I wouldn't know that being I'm on the mainland) or is it because anywhere near the coast (such as the island) receives too much rain to have a basement (I'm sure I've been in houses with basements around here)?

 

Almost every house we looked at was on dirt or skim coat crawlspace when we moved out there. There were some full basements, but very very few.

 

This was in the comox/campbell river areas, Sannichton (which IIRC is down by Vic) may be different but it seemed logical to me that construction would be similar as the underlying structure is similar across the island. I had often wondered if it had anything to do with being so close to the fault line on the Juan de fuca plate (right up the straights) and possible foundation cracking in and earthquake event......

 

Hydrostatic pressure is even more a factor in a basement vice crawl space do to the depth into the ground water table.

[camos]

Yes, crawl space but no skim coat. In fact, no coat at all... just dirt.

 

Anyway, not the set up you are thinking of. House was built in 1940 with no perimeter drain. A couple years ago did a significant reno that included a perimeter drain. Unfortunately, the storm sewer was on the far side of my shop so the only routes to it were under the shop or around it. The second unfortunate thing was to get a natural fall to the drain pipe meant there would need to be be a 6 foot deep trench dug under the fence line with my neighbour. Both options were going to cost a tidy fortune so a third option was to run it into an underground rock sump tank and pump out the tank as necessary. So, that's the pump that I'm messing with.

 

Essentially, what I'm wanting to do is allow the tank to fill to at least 3 feet before the pump is triggered so it will pump less often but for longer. Already wore out one pump probably due to too many starts and stops. All the automatic submersible pumps I have found have a rather short lift to the float switch... ergo... my relay idea. Could be other possible options but when I get home from work it is dark and pissing rain and weekends lately have been non existent for me. One day soon I hope to be able to get at the pump so for the time being I thought I would try to sort out whatever solutions that might be available.

[bkuhr]

Clive,

Did you see the relay suggestion in post #5?

[camos]

So, I'm reading this thread and curiosity got the better of me on this one. Why would you make that assumption? Is it because nobody on the island has a basement (frankly, I wouldn't know that being I'm on the mainland) or is it because anywhere near the coast (such as the island) receives too much rain to have a basement (I'm sure I've been in houses with basements around here)?

Not that any of this matters:

 

GW's assumption was a broad one which is always prone to being wrong. That said, it's probably a fairly accurate assumption for the Island because most of it has little topsoil and bedrock is often 6" to 24" under the surface. There are probably quite a few areas that would be an exception although, at a guess, most of them would be ALR farmland where it is difficult to get a building permit for accommodation. My first house was in North Saanich and it had a basement but it was only half submerged. Most of the houses around there were built on a slab or had an above ground basement, essentially a two story house with the entrance leading immediately up a set of stairs. There are a few of the latter in my area and one neighbouring house is built on a slab while the one on the other side has a crawl space. One area of my property has really nice black dirt down to 6'-8' and 20' away there is brown clay 12" down.

[camos]

to answer your question here is a circuit with just 1 relay.

I did miss it, thanks for the heads up or it may have remained lost.

The circuit looks like it is exactly what I was envisioning. So, right now, I'm trying to put it into a real world context but not seeing it. For some reason I can remember exactly how the previous pump setup worked but am totally uncertain just how the current pump is configured except that it is different from the first one.

 

Rather than speculating, on Sunday I'll pull the pump and check out what there is to work with. Once that is done, perhaps it will come to me how to hook in an extra float and relay. It hasn't rained for 2 days so it might be dry enough to go down the hole and open up the strum box drain holes a bit.

 

Thanks for the circuit and the following heads up.

[camos]

I believe that you are correct that the pump is just out pumping the inflow. Another option is to reduce the pumps flow by throttling a valve. Since the pump is pumping less water, it will use less power. You don't state what type of 1½" pipe but I am assuming plastic (ABS or PVC). Maybe a valve like this? https://www.grainger.com/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-PVC-Ball-Valve-32H952 Just looking at the picture of the valve, I wonder if you got an 1¼" valve, if you could slip an 1½" "No Hub" coupling https://www.grainger.com/product/2ZU19?gclid=CPGVyY7LmMkCFZU1aQod5MYEBQ&cm_mmc=PPC:GOOGLEPLAA-_-Plumbing-_-Pipe%20Fittings%20and%20Couplings-_-2ZU19&AL!2966!3!50916794037!!!g!82128168357!&ef_id=VGE1bAAAAFLLT0Jf:20151117231459:s over the outside of the valve? Would make it easy to install.

Yes, it's PVC and might be 1 1/4" or 1 1/2". When I changed pumps I remember the discharge size had to be changed. The good thing is I did not glue the joints together so there will be no difficulty in making any alterations.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll throw that into the mix as well.

[camos]

Here is a pic of the pump:

 

 

The power connections can be seen sitting on top of the pump. The adapter at the end of the cord with the side connection is the power to the float. The pump cord plugs into the float adapter which then plugs into the power cord.

 

Haven't looked into it yet but it seems likely I could get another float switch with a similar adapter connection. Just have to sort out how to make the connections as per the relay schematic.

 

Alternatively, it may be possible to just extend the rod for the float slider which would really make it simple.