Guy intentially wrecks couple on bike

[cowpuc]

Suffice to say the guy in the cage is a nut case. If you saw the news report cowpuc posted earlier, toward the end they discuss prior incidents with this guy. My big fear riding is the knowledge there are nuts like him out there on the road. Whatever he gets out of this is not enough IMO.

 

Back in '78 I took a month off my welding job at Unit 3 for the Boilermakers, hopped on my then brand new 78 HD Lowrider (MY GOSH I LOVED THAT OL SHOVEL!!) and headed for California.. Outside of Ventura I was zipping along on a 4 laner, feet propped up on forward bars, leaned back on my tent/bag going no handed (had tooth pics shoved into the throttle to lock it down).. A "CHIPS" officer came cruising up beside me a couple lanes away - riding a Kawasaki ,, I reached behind my head, grabbed my camera and snapped a pic (still got it somewhere)...

WOW ZZZZZZ WOW WOW WOW, thought I had just become public enemy number 1

CHIPS pulled me over,, ask me WHAT THE HECK DID I THINK I WAS DOING?? I was VERY apologetic for taking his pic (thought that was it).. He reamed me up one side and down the other for going no handed,, both hands on the bars at ALL TIMES when your in Cali he screams.. His non-debatable platform consisted of a threat that had hardly ever really concerned me,, that being the "fact" (his words) that there are people out on those highways that HUNT motorcyclist, "that will purposely go out of their way to run you over" he says.. As he began to clearly see I was listening to his every word he calmed down and told me of several instances that he knew of where "criminals who were clearly not fit for society who had actually purposely killed motorcyclist, I have personally put away a number of them"..

I guess this "Crum" is one that he missed

[StarFan]

Puc my man !

 

You are and always will be a rascal

Guess that´s why we love you so much

 

Be safe my friend, Jonas

[BigLenny]

Statisitics consistently show over 70% of motorcycle accidents are rider error. This is a very clear visual of what happens when a rider makes an error and allows himself to become impatient and puts himself in a situation where something bad could happen. He made another error to break the law and pass tow cars ON A DOUBLE YELLOW line and guess what? Something bad happened. By allowing himself to break one of the cardinal rules of riding a motorcycle, which is to excersize patience at all times, he made a mental error which put him in a situation where he would cross paths with a man who probably doesn't like motorcycles and surely doesn't like people breaking the law and passing him on a double yellow. That man then more than likely broke the law by assaulting the rider and his innocent passenger. This could've all been avoided if the rider would've followed one of the critical rules of riding a motorcycle: Patience Patience Patience.

[mirider]

Don't think anyone is arguing that both the cyclist and cager weren't at fault.....the question is which is the greater offense and whose action created the event. The cyclist crossed the double yellow but nothing would have happened had he not passed a psycho. According to the poll, 100% of Venture Rider members believe the cager committed a crime.

[Sailor]

When you say 70% of motorcycle accidents are rider error where did you get that statistic? The only definitive report on motorcycle accidents I know of is the Hurt Report which shows 70% of accidents involving motorcycles are caused by car drivers. It also shows that the majority of police reports are written up wrong and blame the biker instead of the cager who is actually at fault.

In my humble opinion it does not matter what the motorcyclist was doing that guy had no right to try to kill them. What if the situation were the same and the cager pulled a gun and shot at the bikers? He just might do that next time.

[cowpuc]

When you say 70% of motorcycle accidents are rider error where did you get that statistic? The only definitive report on motorcycle accidents I know of is the Hurt Report which shows 70% of accidents involving motorcycles are caused by car drivers. It also shows that the majority of police reports are written up wrong and blame the biker instead of the cager who is actually at fault.

In my humble opinion it does not matter what the motorcyclist was doing that guy had no right to try to kill them. What if the situation were the same and the cager pulled a gun and shot at the bikers? He just might do that next time.

 

Shooot Sailor, even I know the answer to that one, then it would be all the gun's fault

[BigLenny]

When you say 70% of motorcycle accidents are rider error where did you get that statistic? The only definitive report on motorcycle accidents I know of is the Hurt Report which shows 70% of accidents involving motorcycles are caused by car drivers. It also shows that the majority of police reports are written up wrong and blame the biker instead of the cager who is actually at fault.

In my humble opinion it does not matter what the motorcyclist was doing that guy had no right to try to kill them. What if the situation were the same and the cager pulled a gun and shot at the bikers? He just might do that next time.

 

Sailor,

 

I probably shouldn't have used the word "consistantly". The statistic i gave was from an article I read a few years ago in Rider Magazine. The article was about an extensive study that had been done on motorcycle accidents. The study had not just looked at police reports, but had actually looked at the circumstances leading up to the accident, and what the motorcyclist was doing and what situation he had put himself in before the accident. How many were avoidable if the rider were to have been practicing the correct motorcycle riding protocol. The study showed that over 70% were rider error and were avoidable due to the rider either purposefully or absent mindedly putting himself in harms way based on proper motorcycle riding protocol. One of the examples I remember was a biker that was killed on the interstate because a tractor trailer driver changed lanes over on him and ran him off the road. This accident of course went down as caused by another vehicle. So it would technically be in the 70% you talked about in the hurt report. However, the study of the accident showed that the biker had allowed himself to get caught up in the flow of traffic and wound up riding beside the big truck too long and the big truck driver basically forgot he was there when he changed lanes because he was in his blind spot. Thus creating a rider error of breaking a key safe motorcycle riding protocol of never allowing yourself to ride for an extended period of time beside a semi truck. Absolutely there are a large number of motorcycle accidents that are caused by cars that were the cars drivers fault, but the study showed that a very large part of them were completely avoidable by proper riding technique. I'm not going to say "we have all done it", but I am going to say I have certainly done it. I have let my mind slip and then realize I'm riding in a pack of cars too tight, or I'm spending too much time in someones blind spot, or I didn't put myself in the correct lane while going through an intersection, etc.

 

Now, as far as the accident we've all been cussing and discussing; I absolutely believe the old man driver of the car is criminal and wrong (I voted criminal on the pole) and should be prosecuted. Heck, stick bamboo shafts up his toenails and burn him at the stake for all I care. He needs to go to jail, and never be allowed to drive again. And, his insurance better be paying for the accident. Buuuuuuttttt.........I stand by my statement that if the idiot on the bike would've been riding by true motorcycling protocol and staying patient waiting on a "LEGAL" passing zone, instead of breaking the law and putting his and his precious cargo's lives at stake, the whole event would've been avoided. And I'm not going to even start explaining another rider error he made by getting on the bike with illegal license.

 

This accident will be recorded as "caused by a car", thus it will fit beautifully into the Hurt Report of 70%, but the fact is, it was avoidable and rider error. The passenger of the bike should sue the knucklehead rider for being negligent and putting her in that situation.

[StarFan]

Sailor,

Now, as far as the accident we've all been cussing and discussing; I absolutely believe the old man driver of the car is criminal and wrong (I voted criminal on the pole)

 

Where the heck is that pole ??? I would like to vote.

[Goose68]

I guess I don't see it any different than when I am running down the freeway at 80 and pass a guy going 70 (legal speed limit). If the guy tried to run me off the rode when I passed him do I have it coming because I was speeding. I don't think so.

[BigLenny]

I guess I don't see it any different than when I am running down the freeway at 80 and pass a guy going 70 (legal speed limit). If the guy tried to run me off the rode when I passed him do I have it coming because I was speeding. I don't think so.

 

Absolutely the guy would be wrong to try to run you off the road! And the guy that ran him off the road is wrong and should go to jail for a very long time. And, running down the freeway at 80 is certainly different than breaking the law and crossing a double yellow line and speeding to pass two cars illegally, while not even having a legal license to be on the road. The guy shouldn't have even been there at that moment in time to begin with.

[cowpuc]

Where the heck is that pole ??? I would like to vote.

 

Zippy ya Hippy..

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?111396-Biker-hit

[cowpuc]

Absolutely the guy would be wrong to try to run you off the road! And the guy that ran him off the road is wrong and should go to jail for a very long time. And, running down the freeway at 80 is certainly different than breaking the law and crossing a double yellow line and speeding to pass two cars illegally, while not even having a legal license to be on the road. The guy shouldn't have even been there at that moment in time to begin with.

 

Thats the point I am still over Lenny,, I just can not see it.. I dont care if the guy had no insurance, no plates, no helmet, crossed 20 yellow lines, and was riding backwards on an R1 going 150 miles an hour with his girlfriend sitting on the front fender.. All of those are traffic violations which I simply have a hard time seeing the same as someone who attempts to take someone elses life..

Thats why I mentioned earlier that if the guy on the bike had abducted (had the girl on the scoot against her own will) the girl then yea,, he and the guy that tried to kill em (if its proven in court he did - we do still have "innocent till proven guilty" I hope) would be on equal footing from my perspective..

I DO respect your thoughts here though Lenny (and everyone elses too) and truthfully NO hard feeling on my part cause we dont agree.. I just cant see the "apples for apples"..

[StarFan]

Thats the point I am still over Lenny,, I just can not see it.. I dont care if the guy had no insurance, no plates, no helmet, crossed 20 yellow lines, and was riding backwards on an R1 going 150 miles an hour with his girlfriend sitting on the front fender.. All of those are traffic violations which I simply have a hard time seeing the same as someone who attempts to take someone elses life..

Thats why I mentioned earlier that if the guy on the bike had abducted (had the girl on the scoot against her own will) the girl then yea,, he and the guy that tried to kill em (if its proven in court he did - we do still have "innocent till proven guilty" I hope) would be on equal footing from my perspective..

I DO respect your thoughts here though Lenny (and everyone elses too) and truthfully NO hard feeling on my part cause we dont agree.. I just cant see the "apples for apples"..

 

Absolutely AGREE with you PUC !

Now here is a make believe scenario:

Last night me and Greta were riding our Red Baron down town in Reykjavik Iceland. I needed to park the bike and found an empty spot with a parking meter. Dang,,,We did not have any coins with us so we decided just to take the chance and ignore the meter - face the fine if we would get one. Then suddenly a car pulls up and out comes this furious guy and says:

How dare you not pay the parking meter !!!!!!!

He pulled out a gun and shot me in the chest. Greta was able to seek cover and avoided the bullets flying all around her. Now I just came from surgery and the doctor said that I was lucky not getting killed but I would make a full recovery even though it would take some time.

 

How could I be so stupid not to have foreseen that by skipping paying the parking meter I would most likely put myself and my precious wife Greta in the situation of someone trying to kill us since I broke the parking meter law !!!!

 

SO,,,Is the bottom line never ever to ride a bicycle, motorcycle, car or any other vehicle if you are not absolutely sure that you will follow all and any rule and law in the book and if you don´t then you will risk somebody trying to kill you any time you brake simple traffic laws.

NO,,I DON´T THINK SO ! If this was true I might as well wrap myself in cotton and crawl down in a hole.

 

Just my 10 cents worth and I sincerely do not expect any of you to agree with me. Please feel free to disagree Just my personal opinion !

 

Be safe all of you and play it the way you feel most safe and comfortable with !

[cowpuc]

I stand by my statement that if the idiot on the bike would've been riding by true motorcycling protocol and staying patient waiting on a "LEGAL" passing zone, instead of breaking the law and putting his and his precious cargo's lives at stake, the whole event would've been avoided. And , I'm not going to even start explaining another rider error he made by getting on the bike with illegal license.

 

This accident will be recorded as "caused by a car", thus it will fit beautifully into the Hurt Report of 70%, but the fact is, it was avoidable and rider error. The passenger of the bike should sue the knucklehead rider for being negligent and putting her in that situation.

 

Or,, would it have just have happened somewhere down the road,, perhaps to you or I just out for an afternoon ride and ending up in the wrong place at the wrong time, a place we should not have been.. Take a look at what the circumstances surrounding Crum's "Terrorist Threat" guilty verdict in the past was founded on.. A lot is brought up in this article that may or may not shed some light on Crum's actions..

 

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/10/20/man-says-i-dont-care-driver-chased-him-with-a-shotgun-in-07/

 

And then there is this article:

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/10/20/driver-arrested-for-granbury-motorcycle-crash/

 

Where this was found:

 

Deputies booked Crum into the Hood County Jail just after midnight on Tuesday, saying that he was uncooperative then and remained so later on Tuesday. His bond was set at $75,000 for each charge.

Before being arrested, Crum explained that the swerving was his reaction to a spider bite. However, he was captured on video saying “I don’t care” about the motorcycle crash and the two victims. “On that particular road,” Crum said, “I’ve seen them do wheelies at 60 mph, and I thought he was one of them. I didn’t know there was a passenger.”

 

In Crum's mind,,, it seems that this whole incident would have been explainable and justified if this double line passer on a scoot would have been one of the other bikers who he had seen doing a wheelie at 60 mph?

 

 

 

[cowpuc]

Absolutely AGREE with you PUC !

Now here is a make believe scenario:

Last night me and Greta were riding our Red Baron down town in Reykjavik Iceland. I needed to park the bike and found an empty spot with a parking meter. Dang,,,We did not have any coins with us so we decided just to take the chance and ignore the meter - face the fine if we would get one. Then suddenly a car pulls up and out comes this furious guy and says:

How dare you not pay the parking meter !!!!!!!

He pulled out a gun and shot me in the chest. Greta was able to seek cover and avoided the bullets flying all around her. Now I just came from surgery and the doctor said that I was lucky not getting killed but I would make a full recovery even though it would take some time.

 

How could I be so stupid not to have foreseen that by skipping paying the parking meter I would most likely put myself and my precious wife Greta in the situation of someone trying to kill us since I broke the parking meter law !!!!

 

SO,,,Is the bottom line never ever to ride a bicycle, motorcycle, car or any other vehicle if you are not absolutely sure that you will follow all and any rule and law in the book and if you don´t then you will risk somebody trying to kill you any time you brake simple traffic laws.

NO,,I DON´T THINK SO ! If this was true I might as well wrap myself in cotton and crawl down in a hole.

 

Just my 10 cents worth and I sincerely do not expect any of you to agree with me. Please feel free to disagree Just my personal opinion !

 

Be safe all of you and play it the way you feel most safe and comfortable with !

 

Count me as one to agree with you Starfan.

 

Now let me add just a little insight into how strange/different I would respond if I witnessed something like you just described Jonas.. If I came upon you and Gretta (or anyone for that matter) facing a person shooting at, or even pointing a gun at you for an unpaid meter charge, he would be hit by an 800 pound Jacketed Hollowpoint Howitzer round named Tweeks and it WOULD BE INTENTIONAL.. In other words,, I think there actually is a time and place where turning a vehicle into a weapon is both honorable and justifiable..

On the same token though,, if you were getting written up at that same meter by some honey on cushman scooter (Meter Maid?) because you broke that traffic law I would probably and then :rotfl:cause ya got by a lady on a scooter...

 

It's what I been trying to say,, I am having a hard time seeing the "apples for apples" - one I see NO humor in, the other is full of endless :stickpoke::crackup:

Edited October 22, 2015 by cowpuc

[BigLenny]

Thats the point I am still over Lenny,, I just can not see it.. I dont care if the guy had no insurance, no plates, no helmet, crossed 20 yellow lines, and was riding backwards on an R1 going 150 miles an hour with his girlfriend sitting on the front fender.. All of those are traffic violations which I simply have a hard time seeing the same as someone who attempts to take someone elses life..

Thats why I mentioned earlier that if the guy on the bike had abducted (had the girl on the scoot against her own will) the girl then yea,, he and the guy that tried to kill em (if its proven in court he did - we do still have "innocent till proven guilty" I hope) would be on equal footing from my perspective..

I DO respect your thoughts here though Lenny (and everyone elses too) and truthfully NO hard feeling on my part cause we dont agree.. I just cant see the "apples for apples"..

 

NO NO NO, Puc!! You know I highly respect you and I would never allow myself to ever have hard feelings toward ya. This is just a conversation here.

 

So, let me say this; THIS GUY IS A SCUMBAG!!! He is as wrong as a 3 dollar bill, and he needs to go under the jail for life! I AM IN NO WAY WANTING TO IMPLY THAT THESE ARE APPLES TO APPLES OFFENSES!!! They are not! I'm only saying that the illegal biker guy, if he would've exercised patience and not decided to break the law and just stayed put until he could've passed in a legal manner, there could've been, not definitely for sure, but there could've been a different outcome here. The old hot headed jerk clearly stated he was upset about him passing on a double yellow. If he was passing him on a dotted line, maybe the Scumbag wouldn't have reacted like he did. Who freakin knows?

 

Lemme ask this hypothetical question; If the biker was illegally passing, and when he got to the old man, and lets say the man wasn't a hothead but he didn't even know he was coming and turned left into a driveway and plastered the biker, what would we all be saying? We would be saying the biker put himself in harms way by passing on a double yellow line. We would be saying he should've never been trying to pass on a double yellow line and putting himself and his passenger at that moment in time. LOL.

[cowpuc]

NO NO NO, Puc!! You know I highly respect you and I would never allow myself to ever have hard feelings toward ya. This is just a conversation here. ROCK N ROLL BROTHER!!!

 

So, let me say this; THIS GUY IS A SCUMBAG!!! He is as wrong as a 3 dollar bill, and he needs to go under the jail for life! I AM IN NO WAY WANTING TO IMPLY THAT THESE ARE APPLES TO APPLES OFFENSES!!! They are not! I'm only saying that the illegal biker guy, if he would've exercised patience and not decided to break the law and just stayed put until he could've passed in a legal manner, there could've been, not definitely for sure, but there could've been a different outcome here. The old hot headed jerk clearly stated he was upset about him passing on a double yellow. If he was passing him on a dotted line, maybe the Scumbag wouldn't have reacted like he did. Who freakin knows? I have hard time following that way of thinking,, probably a flaw in my character from going over backwards on a scoot to much:big-grin-emoticon:.. I always believed that the ONLY thing that I can control are my own actions, reactions and responses and, in the end, those are the things that I AM TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR, same goes for you.. If the things I do or dont do can in fact be the justifiable cause for someone who is unstable to, in a moment of rage, pull out a gun and shoot me or purposely run over me with a car then I too should probably be looking for some cotton just like Starfan:thumbsup:..

 

Lemme ask this hypothetical question; If the biker was illegally passing, and when he got to the old man, and lets say the man wasn't a hothead but he didn't even know he was coming and turned left into a driveway and plastered the biker, what would we all be saying? We would be saying the biker put himself in harms way by passing on a double yellow line. We would be saying he should've never been trying to pass on a double yellow line and putting himself and his passenger at that moment in time. LOL.

 

I would be saying something along the line of,, Prayers Up for all the folks involved in that horrible traffic accident and if it were put to a poll like this thread was I would have voted "Accident" instead of "Crime"... Probably still be involved in a pretty interesting debate here though:big-grin-emoticon:

[StarFan]

NO NO NO, Puc!! You know I highly respect you and I would never allow myself to ever have hard feelings toward ya. This is just a conversation here.

 

So, let me say this; THIS GUY IS A SCUMBAG!!! He is as wrong as a 3 dollar bill, and he needs to go under the jail for life! I AM IN NO WAY WANTING TO IMPLY THAT THESE ARE APPLES TO APPLES OFFENSES!!! They are not! I'm only saying that the illegal biker guy, if he would've exercised patience and not decided to break the law and just stayed put until he could've passed in a legal manner, there could've been, not definitely for sure, but there could've been a different outcome here. The old hot headed jerk clearly stated he was upset about him passing on a double yellow. If he was passing him on a dotted line, maybe the Scumbag wouldn't have reacted like he did. Who freakin knows?

 

Lemme ask this hypothetical question; If the biker was illegally passing, and when he got to the old man, and lets say the man wasn't a hothead but he didn't even know he was coming and turned left into a driveway and plastered the biker, what would we all be saying? We would be saying the biker put himself in harms way by passing on a double yellow line. We would be saying he should've never been trying to pass on a double yellow line and putting himself and his passenger at that moment in time. LOL.

 

Well Lenny. Not speaking for Puc but for myself.

There was no driveway - period ! Hypothetically if there was then the biker would in my eyes have him self to blame - But again-there was no driveway. It is what it was !

In life we all make all kind of decisions that can make us harm and I am for sure one of those people who generally do not believe in people being mean or bad. And believe me - My American freinds sometime shake their heads over this wreckless Icelandic Eskimo !

Now here is a story:

I was driving in West southern Ny state on my way to Big Toms house. We had been in contact and I told him that I would be at his house in about 2 and half hours. So everything was cool. Then I stopped in a small town called Jesper Ny at a small shack/gas station to have a Coke and to stretch a little. Out comes a guy with a Pizza box, stops by my bike and starts talking to me. Found out that i was from Iceland and was impressed to say the least. Ended by offering me to follow him home and share a pizza with him and his wife. I told him I kind of had a tight schedule and a friend of mine was waiting for me so I would take a rain check if that was O.K. with him. He said suer. If you ever go through this town then just stop by - I live in the blue house right above the*****store. He went to his car after saying goodbye and then I thought to myself: WHY THE HECK NOT! So I walked up to his car and asked if the the offer was still valid then I would love to share a pizza with him and his wife. Short story goes that I did and I spent two hours chatting with him and his lovely wife, had a tour in his garage where he had a newly restored Ford T model as well as an awesome old Harley.

Finally when arriving at Toms place, Tom was waiting in his driveway with his arms crossed not looking very HAPPY ! As sson as I dismounted the bike he said: Don´t tell me - you met somebody and made some new friends right ? Well, I told him the whole story and he got pretty mad at me. Not for showing up late but for being wreckless and taking chances with people I knew nothing about. He told Craig (Cecdoo) the story and both of them agreed that one of these days I would dissapear and most likely be found decades later, chained naked to a wall in a basement in some no name town.

The moral of the story is that we all make choices that are not always the most logical choices and can surely put ourselves in danger but I would like to look at that as in extreme circumstances. But should we expect a bad situation in every move and decision we make ? Heck - first time I came to USA to meet up with the Venturerider group I stayed at Toms house without ever meeting the guy. Turned out to be a pretty nice guy after all - actually one of my best friends from the minute I met him. I will never ever even think about going through life by looking over my shoulder and carefully calculating every step I make. I will though not intentionally put myself in danger unless it is unavoidable but we gotta go through life without constant fear of something going wrong. If not then my advice is to stay away from motorcycles at all times.

Well, English is not my native language and I have a lttle trouble putting my thoughts in words but I hope you guys get my drift.

I would at least never expect someone to try to kill me if I was braking a simple traffic law.

But maybe I am just naive.

Anyway. Whenever I am passing by that little town of Jasper I always stop by and check on my buddy with the Harley and the old T-Ford. Unfortunately he has been at work so far but met his wife who has told me that he was devastated not being home. But if I ever dissapeer then look for me in a small town called Jasper (now that is a JOKE O.K. - sometimes my sarcastic Icelandic humour is misunderstood by my great American friends )

You all be safe now.

 

Friendly regards, Jonas

[tufftom4]

Ok why are we arguing about this what the biker did was a ticket offense and that does not give anyone the right to try to kill them PERIOD....

[Sailor]

Biglenny....the report you read sounds similar to the Hurt Report. Dr. Hurt got the co-operation of the local police department to have a police scanner in his office. As a result he was able to get to an accident site at the same time as, or even before, the police. In an example a car turned left and hit a motorcycle. The motorcyclist was injured and removed from the scene. The police interviewed the car driver who stated the motorcyclist came out of nowhere, must have been speeding. This was not borne out by the fact there were no skid marks and the damage to the car was not nearly enough to substantiate the claim the biker was speeding. The police wrote up the report as motorcyclist at fault due to speeding. He found that 70% of the time the car driver was at fault according to the evidence at the scene. The police reports, however, showed the motorcyclist at fault as they did not investigate and just took the word of the car driver. I try never to put myself in a dangerous situation but I was stuck behind an old goat in a pickup who was doing 30 kph in an 80 kph zone for 20 k. There was a double yellow line the whole way. I was well back in the long line of traffic or I would have passed him regardless of the line. There are a few places where it would have been safe and some cars did manage to get by.

[BigLenny]

Okayyyyyyyy. I see whats going on here. You guys are yanking my chain just to get a rise outta me. I can see it now. Y'all are all sending PM's between each other saying "hey, lets all disagree with BigLenny, the ol country boy from way down south, and see how much we can get his rebel dander stirred up". Well, I'm here to tell ya that it ain't gonna happen! I love you guys too much. LOL.

[Sailor]

This one can go on forever. My last word on the subject is....Yes the biker should not have passed but that does not give the car driver the right to try to kill him. The car driver should be fined and banned from ever driving again, a little jail time as well would not hurt.

[BigLenny]

This one can go on forever. My last word on the subject is....Yes the biker should not have passed but that does not give the car driver the right to try to kill him. The car driver should be fined and banned from ever driving again, a little jail time as well would not hurt.

 

Yes. And the biker should get ticketed and never ride a passenger again.

[cowpuc]

Okayyyyyyyy. I see whats going on here. You guys are yanking my chain just to get a rise outta me. I can see it now. Y'all are all sending PM's between each other saying "hey, lets all disagree with BigLenny, the ol country boy from way down south, and see how much we can get his rebel dander stirred up". Well, I'm here to tell ya that it ain't gonna happen! I love you guys too much. LOL.

 

Naw,, we may be a bunch of lop eared varmints but one thing we dont do is pick on one another. Well,, maybe once in great great great while but only out of love

We love you too Lenny!!

[Great White]

Before I make my statement, let me say I do think the guy driving should be charged with assault, and even assault with a deadly weapon.

 

That being said, the event brings up many other points.

 

The guys state of mind. I fully believe he had intent to knock the bike over or at least scare the bejesus out of them, that seems fairly obvious. But that's very different than the intent to kill. That knocking the bike over could lead to death or that scaring them could have lead to an accident is a possible outcome of that act, but it's the guys intent that matters when we are saying "he tried to kill them". As it's near impossible to say the guys intent, so we don't know if he tried to "kill them" or tried to "hurt them" or tried to "scare them". Big difference there.

 

I may punch a guy and he may die from some unforeseen issue he may have. It is a possible outcome and I could/would be charged with at least assault and probably manslaughter. But my intent was not to kill him. My intent was to hurt him. That's why it would be manslaughter and not murder. No premeditation or intent to kill, even though someone died. If I punch a guy and he doesn't die, it's assault. The intent is the difference and is a very important point in charge and sentencing. That all sounds very "lawyerish", but it's the way it works.

 

Another issue that has bugged me for a long time is the term "cagers". It's a term that is used to dehumanize and make it alright to "hate" anyone in a car when we're on a bike. It's derogatory and it has a negative connotation no matter how someone tries to explain it. Why is it we call ourselves "motorcyclists" but they are not "motorists"? I truly think that's a label we should drop as motorcyclists. It isolates us and makes it easier for "motorists" to say things like "there goes another donor cycle" and separate themselves from us. Motorcyclists should be working as a group to close the gap between bikes and cars, not widen it. We use the same roads, why are we trying to divide ourselves from the very people we want to be more aware of us?

 

People care more about other people they identify with, and care less about those they do not.

 

People think "cager" is "just a word I use" and doesn't really mean anything, but words have power. Hate, love, rage all words that have power. They are not words that should be thrown around casually. Same as words like cager, which is not much removed from things like "the hun" or "Kraut" that was used to dehumanize Germans in WWII, which made it easier for soldiers to kill them. Or the word "nigger" and slavery. "Japs" and WWII. "Jews" in Nazi Germany. Words used to separate one group of humans from another to make it easier to think one is better than the other or one has less worth than the other. Keep in mind I'm drawing the parallel to the words, not equating motorists to Nazi's or other groups.

 

On any given day we can ourselves be "cagers", so why do we apply that derogatory term to anyone not on a bike that day? I've just never understood it and again, truly think motorcyclists should drop it from our language.

 

The Crum guy's comments about 60 MPH wheelies also illustrates a sub-sect of our motorcyclist group that gives us all a bad name just like bike gangs do: "The squid" or "stunter" or any other word you want to apply to people generally being reckless on public streets. While I in no way excuse or condone Crum's actions, I understand the frustration behind them.

 

I can't stand them either. Youtube is full of theses a-holes on public streets and they think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. What they are is just plain dangerous and are going to eventually get the general public all riled up just like straight pipes did/do.

 

If you get enough people riled up, they'll do something about it. They'll start passing laws, or making it more difficult to get a license, or insurance companies will start jacking rates through the roof on all bikes and riders on general perception, call for police to be cracking down on all bikers for every little thing and other stuff like that.

 

Unfortunately, there's not a lot the average guy can do about them becasue they just aren't going to listen. I've tried. We all know the type: the guy with the scraped and smashed up superbike with the footmarks on the tank and the metal scrape bar behind the tail light. I also enjoy a little thrill as the front tire grazes the ground on hard acceleration, but catwalking down main street or draggin yourself down the road behind your bike is just flat out dangerous. Hell, doing it anywhere on a public street is dangerous. There's places for this: empty parking lots, race tracks or any locally organized event. Or, take it to the dirt and do it on a dirt bike in a feild, sand pit or even a track. Again, unfortunately, in the "YouTube" culture that's not enough. You've got to be breaking laws, flipping the bird and just being a general @ss to be cool.

 

Anyways, just some points I wanted to get off my chest. Not so much about what happened on that stretch of road, but what could be called pet peeves it brings to mind I guess. Perhaps a bit of a soapbox "points for discussion" but not meant to be insulting, inflammatory or derogatory to anyone and/or their opinions.

 

Maybe "deep thoughts" with GW (if anyone gets the SNL reference)....

 

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I'll stop commenting in these threads. Pretty much said all I have to say and honestly, the topic is getting kind of tiresome.

 

I will, however, say kudos to everyone who has been able to discuss such a potentially charged subject with a mature attitude. Most boards it's only a matter of time before someone feels the need to unzip and measure or go on the personal attack, but that generally doesn't happen on this board and it a very refreshing atmosphere to find online. Well worth the 12 bucks.

 

Edited October 24, 2015 by Great White
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