Ever wonder is a 170/60 17 woudl fit on a 1 st gen?

[Great White]

I've gotten some mobility back and thought I would frig around with the bike in the garage since I can't ride it.

 

I've been toying with doing a wheel swap and putting radials on the Venture.

 

First. let me say the guy who designed the rear end of these bikes should be shot with a ball of his own poo. I've never seen a rear tire so hard to get to or so hard to change.

 

That being said, after I got the stocker out of the way I slipped in a ZX7R 17 x 5.50 rim I've got waiting for a radial tire swap on my FJ1200. It's wearing a 170 tire.

 

Let's just do some pics now:

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/FECC609B-A9F1-4A08-B067-A7F4CC0A6195_zpso3bntkkf.jpg

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/6401A1B2-F6AA-4E64-BD90-10FADD500549_zpssq64ohuv.jpg

 

Here's it rolling and showing it clears. Not by much, but it clears:

 

 

http://vid1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/E0D0C6D4-C4D4-4E49-AF07-1AFFBA48E666_zpsc19pti8b.mp4

 

 

Now obviously, that's a chain drive wheel so there's no connection with the differential. I just centered the tire in the opening. The differential is removed for these pics. If I were to use a similar wheel, it woudl have to be chucked up in one large lathe and have the LH side of the hub turned waaaay down just to fit the diff and have some kind of hub drive.

 

But there was also no way in heck that 170 would have fit in the swingarm if the diff was installed either. Just not enough clearance.

 

It's sure fn to think about it, but one heck of a lot of work. Do-able but one monster job to get it done.....

Edited October 17, 2015 by Great White

[Flyinfool]

I thought it was the drive shaft housing that was the limiting factor on tire width.

 

IIRC the drive shaft is a lot smaller dia than the tube it runs in. I wonder it there is room to scoop out a bit of the housing and weld in a patch to get some more clearance, and still maintain the structural integrity????????

[Great White]

Well, the swingarm already has a "relief" in the LH arm for tire clearance. If you get the 170 just right, it clears. But the 17" rim is dangerously close to where the necked down portion widens out.

 

There was a bang on wheel weight on the rim i was using and it was striking the arm where it widened out again.

 

If I were to try the 17 rim, I'd probably take a bit more out of the swingarm tube for a touch more clearance.

[Great White]

Well, I figured it was worth exploring a little further so I ordered another ZX wheel (with brake disc but no sprocket carrier)off eBay. The one in the pics above is earmarked for my FJ1200. 60 bucks to my door for another one, so not much to loose if it goes in the crapper.

 

I'll take my spare swingarm and clearance it a little bit more and I was planing on a brace for it anyways.

 

I'll likely turn the center cush drive out of my spare 86 rear wheel and mate it to the ZX wheel. The 86 Venture wheel is pretty much a mess anyways and I don't have the brake disc for it either. It's structurally sound, but cosmetically a corroded mess.

 

It looks like the Venture cush drive can be machined to nicely friction fit in to a hollowed out zx wheel and still leave the ZX brake disc mounts in place. It should be a simple matter for someone good with a tig to weld the two pieces when I'm done. I may even use the freeze/heat trick to lock them together and then the weld will just be backup.

 

Using the ZX disc gets me away from that 86-92 rear disc availability issue. I also use the rear brake differently than most people. A rear disc that isn't very powerful works perfectly for me. I typically just drag a rear brake to settle the chassis in corners or for low speed parking lot use against the clutch/throttle.

 

I'm thinking it should work well with the VMax final drive and the 2002 RSV transmission. The 170/70 R 17 has a higher weight rating than the original bias ply so I'm good there. The 170/70 is a little less than an inch smaller than the OEM tire so it should reduce final drive ratio. Should give it vmax like gearing in the lower gears and still have a deeper overdrive 5th than a stock 83-92 Venture.

 

And not that the Venture is a corner carving machine, but a brace on the swingarm should help stabilize things a tad better. Might be needed if I can get another 20-30HP to the rear wheel too.....

 

Edited October 18, 2015 by Great White

[Great White]

Well, in for a penny, in for a pound.

 

I found a good, straight 2004 R6 17 x 3.5 front wheel complete with rotors and bearings. 100 bucks to my door, so I'm into it all for front and rear wheels for 160 bucks. Not too bad and not too much to cry about if it all falls through the floor.

 

We'll see how it matches up with the front of the Venture.

 

I'm not really interested in a full front end swap, so it will be axle's and spacers spun up on the lathe for me. Any front end swaps are going to end up with forks that are shorter than the Venture forks and I'm going to loose enough front end height swapping to the 120/70 17 tire as it is.

 

The rotors are likely to be 320mm, haven't looked it up yet. If they are 320's, I'll just keep the 83 front forks and make adapter plates for the R6 blue spot calipers. I'd have to make plates for the 86 forks with 320mm rotors anyways. The 83 forks are in way better shape than the 86 forks (IE: rust pits, mileage, messy lowers, etc) so thy're just a better choice. 320mm rotors with monoblock calipers will stand this damned thing on it's nose!

 

 

The rim is coming with a tire on it, but it's probably ratched. They usually are. It will do for a roller so I can test it's fit in the garage.

 

Speedo drive will be another issue. Hopefully there will be enough space int he fork legs to work one in.

 

Other wise, I may look at a drive of the middle drive nut or something.

 

Man, this whole process would be so much easier if it was just a chain drive bike.......

[jfman]

conveting a chain drive wheel to hub drive will cost a pretty penny.

 

Is there another motorcycle that shares same hub splines as the 1st gen ventures?

[Great White]

conveting a chain drive wheel to hub drive will cost a pretty penny.

 

Is there another motorcycle that shares same hub splines as the 1st gen ventures?

 

Not so much. I can do most of the work myself. Machine a Venture hub down to size and hollow out the Zx rim. Basically, you do this:

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/big_crbst_32463_132142910146293_109734549053796_298713_1106811_n_zpspnullycw.jpg

 

And you end up with this:

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/_57_zpsbgzehp7i.jpg

 

In a nutshell, that's all Kosman does to make the 17" VMax rear wheels.

 

I'll just farm out the tig welding since you need to be good at that stuff.

 

There's also other ways about it. Here's a gent who did what I was originally thinking about building:

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/PIC00221Small.jpgoriginal_zpsdoj9emmn.jpg

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/PIC00223Small.jpgoriginal_zpsdmbg91jb.jpg

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/PIC00230Small.jpgoriginal_zps27bqyzhb.jpg

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/PIC00234Small.jpgoriginal_zpsvnrivxui.jpg

 

Basically, he made his own splined drive to mate to a standard style cush drive. I don't know if I can get the offset right that way though. He had the advantage of making it for a custom XS1000 so his offset could be built as he saw fit:

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/PIC00259Medium.jpgoriginal_zpszrsnwrfa.jpg

 

You can see even custom built, the offset is horrible. There's just not enough room to do it this way without accepting horrible offset to the RH side or a custom swingarm and drive shaft. IIRC, he used a double joint driveshaft in the end. Can't really remember, stopped following his build a long time ago.

 

Most of the wheel swapping info for Yamaha shafties is for the VMax. Without machining work, most seem to usually result in an offset to the right side.

 

Yammy shaft wheels that will go into the drive:

 

FJR1300 - offset is very bad, so much so that the VMax guys won't use them. need major modifications to work.

XJ900 Diversion - Not sold in NA, but reportedly slots right into a VMax rear swingarm assembly. It's also on a 4.00 width rim. Even a old CBR600F2 wears a 4.50 rim so you're limited on tire choices with the 4.00. Unknown if the offset is to the right on the Venture like a VMax wheel is on a Venture, but it's a fair be tit is offset to the right if the VMax guys are hunting them down.

BT1100 (Bulldog) - Again, not sold in NA. Apparently slots in like the Diversion wheel. Info sketchy on rim width, but I think it's wider than the Divy rim.

 

Of those three, only the FJR is sold in NA. The rest would have to be brought in from overseas. The exchange rates are horrible. BT1100 wheels are rare as hens teeth and expensive if you find one. Any one selling a Divy 900 wheel seems to know it's a swap for a VMax and wants a dear price for it. Toss shipping on top of all that and you might as well just buy a converted wheel from Kosman....

Edited October 18, 2015 by Great White

[Pegasus1300]

As an easy way to get to your rear wheel,just take the 4 screws out that hold each bag to the bike pull the light sockets out of the bottom.Then reach around both bags from the rear spread them a little lift and pull back and they will come off in one piece. There is plenty of give to do this without breaking anything and a lot quicker and easier then taking all the screws out of the cross bar.

[Great White]

As an easy way to get to your rear wheel,just take the 4 screws out that hold each bag to the bike pull the light sockets out of the bottom.Then reach around both bags from the rear spread them a little lift and pull back and they will come off in one piece. There is plenty of give to do this without breaking anything and a lot quicker and easier then taking all the screws out of the cross bar.

 

Rear chrome "bumper" has to come off and so does the reflector. Center fender also for clearance. Then at least the RH bag bracket has to come off.

 

This is if you don't have a bike lift table that is.

 

It's just a bloody nightmare overall. Very poor design.

[Pegasus1300]

I have never used a bike lift and have never taken all that stuff apart. I put a 2 x 4 under the centerstand for fender clearance and remove both bags and bumper in one piece as I described. I found this method of accessing the rear wheel when I bought a new trailer hitch for the 86 back in 1988. Markland put these instructions in with the hitch parts. Its been over 20 years so I don't have a copy of them anymore or I would post it.

 

I agree with you it is not a great design but then I don't know of any fully dressed bike that does have easy access to the rear wheel.

[Great White]

I have never used a bike lift and have never taken all that stuff apart. I put a 2 x 4 under the centerstand for fender clearance and remove both bags and bumper in one piece as I described. I found this method of accessing the rear wheel when I bought a new trailer hitch for the 86 back in 1988. Markland put these instructions in with the hitch parts. Its been over 20 years so I don't have a copy of them anymore or I would post it.

 

I agree with you it is not a great design but then I don't know of any fully dressed bike that does have easy access to the rear wheel.

 

I can't get this heavy bike on the centerstand with a 2x4 under it. I've tried. I just don't have either enough weight or leverage.

 

I suppose I could ride it up on a 2x6 and try the 2x4 under the centerstand. But then I'd be risking it falling over when I try to get my feet down....

[Flyinfool]

Or you can attack it from the other end.

I do not have a lift.

I put the bike on the center stand.

Use a ratchet strap or even my belt to lock the center stand down.

Put something heavy in the trunk to hold front wheel off ground.

Remove front wheel.

Lower forks onto a piece of wood to protect them.

Now the rear end is sticking way up in the air for easy rear wheel removal.

Reverse for assembly.

 

There was/is a write up on this sight somewhere with this method as part of servicing the drive shaft (I think).

I have used it several times now.

[Great White]

yup, I've seen that one too.

 

Still a PITA.

 

I'm looking at modifications to the bike that would make tire removal easier and while on the side stand.

 

Would like to not have to remove a muffler to do it too.

 

I have a few ideas on how to make it happen, but I need some time in the garage with it to see if it's possible.

 

Geez, who designed this thing that if you get a flat you have to take most of the bike apart to fix it....

[Pegasus1300]

I am with you, I can't lift it on the center stand with a 2 x 4 under it either.So I put it on the center stand then rock it to one side side the 2 x 4 under then rock it to the other side and kick the other end under then set it back down level and there it is.

[videoarizona]

I'm with Jeff. Took off the front wheel, let her down on the forks and there was plenty of room to get the job done. I didn't think it was hard at all.

Yea there is a lot to take apart and wouldn't want to do this on the road every month...but it is doable.

 

Edited October 21, 2015 by videoarizona
spelling - need more coffee...

[Great White]

My plan to check out for making it easier is to make the rear bar (IE: behind the tire) removable.

 

If it works, it will be remove the center chrome "bumper", remove the lower reflector, remove the center piece of the luggage braces and (hopefully) the tire should be able to come straight out the back.

 

For the axle, I'm looking at doing something with the shock linkage that would let the swingarm drop low enough to clear the muffler. It might be as simple as reversing the bolts that hold the wishbone to the swingarm, but I haven't looked that close at it yet.

 

My bike will likely have an underslung brake caliper (à la the ZX7 wheels) so that won't be a problem. With the axle out, the caliper bracket will drop out of the way.

 

Sounds like a lot of steps when you type it all out, but it's mostly all small stuff and Phillips screws.

 

It's still more than I would like, but simpler than removing all the other stuff.

 

Heck, I've even tossed around the idea of a power extending center stand with a "maintenance" setting that would stand extra tall.

 

 

I've even seen a Goldwing (youtube) where the guy leans the bike over on to the roll bars and the tire just drops right out when the axle is pulled. I could only dream of it being that easy.

 

Hmmm, come to think of it, I was thinking of making some Delrin sliders for the bars. Mostly in case of dumps or hard cornering, but maybe......

Edited October 21, 2015 by Great White

[Flyinfool]

When you lay a 1st gen down it does not stop at the bars, it will go all the way down so the corner of the plastic faring by the mirror is on the ground.

But that position would make tire removal not to bad.

You would have to break the axle nut loose then lay it on the left side.

[Great White]

When you lay a 1st gen down it does not stop at the bars, it will go all the way down so the corner of the plastic faring by the mirror is on the ground.

But that position would make tire removal not to bad.

You would have to break the axle nut loose then lay it on the left side.

 

Yeah, it' probably the horizntal cylinders and thier crash bars that make it possible on a 'wing then....

[camos]

When you lay a 1st gen down it does not stop at the bars, it will go all the way down so the corner of the plastic faring by the mirror is on the ground.

When I laid my 90 on it's side to replace the stator the front engine guard was propped up with a couple of 2X4 blocks to keep the bike approximately level with the rear guards sitting on the floor. One result of doing it this way was the fairing corner was nowhere near touching. Mind you, there still was not enough clearance to get the rear tire out of it's cocoon.

 

Wonder if laying the front end on a car tire would keep it high enough to get the wheel off. When in a shop it is probably easier to just jack up the bike as usual then put a third jack under the engine to keep it balanced when the rear wheel is removed. That's the way I usually do it.

[Great White]

When I laid my 90 on it's side to replace the stator the front engine guard was propped up with a couple of 2X4 blocks to keep the bike approximately level with the rear guards sitting on the floor. One result of doing it this way was the fairing corner was nowhere near touching. Mind you, there still was not enough clearance to get the rear tire out of it's cocoon.

 

Wonder if laying the front end on a car tire would keep it high enough to get the wheel off. When in a shop it is probably easier to just jack up the bike as usual then put a third jack under the engine to keep it balanced when the rear wheel is removed. That's the way I usually do it.

 

Problem is I don't like having to remove the rh exhaust to pull the axle either.that's an equally stupid design.

 

Maybe I'm just being too fussy, but wheels and tires should be removable without all this hassle.

 

It just seems like Yammy wasnt thinking or didn't care when they designed it.

 

You should be able to get a tire off to fix things like a flat without having to take so much of the bike apart......

[Flyinfool]

I would be curious as to how our Yamies compare to other full dress touring bikes for rear wheel removal on the road.

 

My latest trick was to use my 2 ton shop crane to just pick the whole bike up about 3 feet off the ground. Of course this only works at home.

[Great White]

I would be curious as to how our Yamies compare to other full dress touring bikes for rear wheel removal on the road.

 

My latest trick was to use my 2 ton shop crane to just pick the whole bike up about 3 feet off the ground. Of course this only works at home.

 

GL1800:

 

[video=youtube;TShysJyHb-0]

 

I think that might even be a little easier than changing a car tire. Don't even have to use a jack...

 

Looks like the GL1500 is similar to the Venture process:

 

http://www.goldwingfacts.com/1500rearwheel.htm

 

Although, it seems the GL1500 guys have figured out a "work around":

 

http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/download/file.php?id=13029&mode=view

 

http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4894

 

Remove a couple bolts and apparently the luggage can swing right up out of the way. Still have to frig with the exhaust though.

 

Couldn't find much on the Cavalcade or the Voyager but the few bits I did run across look at least as much a PITA as the Venture.

 

I tried to stay as close to the Venture's contemporaries since we're talking comparisons. Well, except for the GL1800 of course....

 

Edited October 25, 2015 by Great White

[camos]

Problem is I don't like having to remove the rh exhaust to pull the axle either.that's an equally stupid design.

 

Maybe I'm just being too fussy, but wheels and tires should be removable without all this hassle.

 

It just seems like Yammy wasnt thinking or didn't care when they designed it.

 

You should be able to get a tire off to fix things like a flat without having to take so much of the bike apart......

I'm in agreement with you about removing the rear wheel but perhaps you are being too hard on Yamaha. The single sided swingarm had been around for quite a while but in 1980 there were issues that had to be overcome before it was considered suitable for use in a large motor bike. The technology was not reliably there when the first Venture hit the road. It probably was before the 2nd gens were launched so Yammy probably did drop the ball on them. But then since they did seem to want to make the 2nd gen look like a Harley, perhaps it was ignored on purpose.

 

The rear wheel removal on the GL1800 is awesome. Props to Honda for continuing the development of their touring bikes. Of course, one will never see a Honda being played at the philharmonic so Yammy wins that one.

[Great White]

I'm in agreement with you about removing the rear wheel but perhaps you are being too hard on Yamaha. The single sided swingarm had been around for quite a while but in 1980 there were issues that had to be overcome before it was considered suitable for use in a large motor bike. The technology was not reliably there when the first Venture hit the road. It probably was before the 2nd gens were launched so Yammy probably did drop the ball on them. But then since they did seem to want to make the 2nd gen look like a Harley, perhaps it was ignored on purpose.

 

The rear wheel removal on the GL1800 is awesome. Props to Honda for continuing the development of their touring bikes. Of course, one will never see a Honda being played at the philharmonic so Yammy wins that one.

 

Nah, it could have been as simple as hiking the pipes up a tad or allowing the swingarm to drop with simply pulling the lower shock bolt at the linkage when they designed it. You would at least have been able to pull the axle without removing the exhaust pipes. That might be a fairly easy task in "non rust belt" regions, but it's a real problem if you live in, say....the Atlantic Provinces and the pipes have been on there a couple riding seasons.

 

Getting the tire out from under the bodywork is then a very viable option by removing the front tire. Or some other means of raising/lifting the rear end. For example, the whole process could be made easy peasy by making the center fender portion easily removed with a few screws and roll the tire out the back.

 

It would be remove the panel, pull the lower shock bolt, pull the axle and roll the tire out the back.

 

I honestly don't think they put any thought into that particular part of servicing the bike. It was more about making it work they way they want.

 

Engineers are notorious for that sort of thing. Building it first, worrying about how they service it later. I'm relatively sure someone once popped up a "hey, wait. How do we get the rear tire off ?" and the answer was "they can just take the bags and exhausts off".

 

Easy to say, difficult to do. Near impossible sitting on the side of the highway with a flat tire. Engineers are usually very good at building something, but when they talk to the guy who has to service their creation it becomes obvious they have neglected some key elements. Basically, that life happens and you need to be able to fix it without tearing all your hair out.

 

Anywho, if the small modifications I have in my mind work I should be able to change the rear tire like they can on the GL1800 without the "roll it over" trick:

 

http://goldwing.eurekaboy.com/cartire4.jpg

 

But I need to get out in the garage and frig around with it to know if it will work or not....

Edited October 26, 2015 by Great White