Dirt bike advice

[Ventureless]

I am getting ready to upgrade my son's dirt bike. I bought my Vstrom so I could ride street and do some off-roading with him. Well now I am going to buy a strictly off road bike for me as well. I am keeping my Vstrom for on road, but something made for just off road is to much fun for me not to get one and ride the earth with my 9 year old.

 

So so those who have met me know I am a big dude. 6'4" and 250 -275 pounds. So what do I need to look for? Also what is easier to work on and maintain, 2 stroke or 4? It won't be any riding to tough or fast. At least not yet! But I also want to be able to ride some wheelies and teach my son how to do it and jumps as well. Mostly trail riding though for now. I am hoping to pick up some new toys next weekend. My son will likely end up with a nice used KTM 65 already set up with some upgrades!

[uncledj]

​ I'd definitely go 4 stroke. A big feller like you should probably go with a big ol' thumper like a Honda XL or XR, a Yamaha XT or TT, maybe a Kawasaki KLR, or a Suzi DR.

My personal preference would be a Honda or a Yammy.

Depending on your budget, you should be able to get one in the $1k to $2k range. I'd go at least a 500cc. The bigger the better. IMHO

[cowpuc]

Your in my world now Venny,, you want the long version or the short version?

[Ventureless]

​ I'd definitely go 4 stroke. A big feller like you should probably go with a big ol' thumper like a Honda XL or XR, a Yamaha XT or TT, maybe a Kawasaki KLR, or a Suzi DR.

My personal preference would be a Honda or a Yammy.

Depending on your budget, you should be able to get one in the $1k to $2k range. I'd go at least a 500cc. The bigger the better. IMHO

My goal is to get both his and mine for around $3k. His will be around $1k so that leaves me with about $2k for mine. I have found plenty of 250/300 or so 2 strokers, but not many large 4 strokes.

[Ventureless]

Your in my world now Venny,, you want the long version or the short version?

The informative version:happy34:

[cowpuc]

Let me start out with, CONGRATS to both you and your son for you making the decision to get out and do something extra special with him - THAT is what I call LIVING my friend!! May your times together be extra special with the wonderful end being a life long bond between the two of you - I applaud you Venny!:clap2:

 

IMHO - THE FOLLOWING IS ALL JUST MY OPINION - FEEL FREE TO PICK IT APART AND DEBATE AWAY!!

 

Having sold many many dirt bikes over the years in my shop I assure you I have been faced with the question you are asking on many occasions. Not only did I buy/sell/repair and restore most of them, I also rode cross country single track (year round here in Michigan) and raced MX, Harescrambles - my personal favorite, Ice, Hillclimbing and pretty much tortured and destroyed dirtbikes as a sport.

Knowing what I know from personal experience, this is my advice:

Modern day 4 stroke MX bikes, YZF's - CRF's - KXF's and the like require way to much expensive maintenance for the "average" woods rider. They are SERIOUSLY competitive scoots and a BLAST to ride but can be a pain in the neck to maintain. I have been out of the dirtbike scene for a while now but can tell you, because of the high revving motors, pancake pistons, light weight valves and springs and tiny little cam chains - bikes like the original CRF450 Honda (you ever ride one - you will instantly agree with me when I say "there is magic between those bars ) had a factory rebuild schedule of every 30 or less hours of run time ..

Of course, you can always go with the much more durable full pistoned, Hyvo cam chained "thumpers" as mentioned by Unc - had em for years and they do a pretty good job but,, they do tend to be heavier and more "street" oriented than a good ol fashioned 2 stroke dirtbike.. If you do decide to go that way, here are some things that I found thru owning/riding them.

KLR - 90% street/10% woods. Tank of a bike that will wash out in the sand on you and leave you as to what just happened. Later models had a cam chain tensioner issue, fixable by an aftermarket repair part - well known issue. They are "CV" carbed like our Ventures - excellent for increased MPG - TERRIBLE for throttle response necessary to get a really good wheelie out of

 

XL Honda - 80% street, 20 woods. Good bikes! 3 phase stator for LOTS of output for LOTS of extra things (like hand warmers for winter riding). Normal carburation so wheelies are fairly easy in first couple of gears.

 

XR Honda's - 50/50 Street - woods.. Fun woods bikes easily convertible to street legal use. Very durable scoots.

 

Suzuki DRZ (both "dual sport" version and "off road version) - Pretty cool lower dollar scoots. Normally carbed so wheelies are not a problem. Never was a Suzuki man but really liked this one. Weight seemed more "liveable" than the others..

 

After years of playing with dirtbikes, riding dirtbikes, teaching my kids to ride em and doing exactly what your doing Venny, I ended up living the following:

 

Modern day 2 stroke MX bikes converted for woods usage and even "street legaled" so I could ride on the road if I needed!

I liked the big bores! KX500 named "Kadie" was my all time favorite. I liked the Kawi because it was "power valved" unlike the Honda CR500 (rode those for years too but mostly on the track). The power valve on the Kawi was built on a gear rack idea - worked great and took very little maintenance. I had a TON of miles on Kadie before I sold her after I broke my back in a car accident and had to quit riding the woods. She was an ELEVATOR when it came wheelie time - anytime/anywhere! I even rode her on the back wheel across the Mackinaw Bridge suspention spands one time.. Telling ya brother,, 85/90 MPH and all it took was a "blip",, Kadie and I LOVED wheelies.. All sounds fancy but I wanna remind you of something, wheelies (and the ability to ride em) are a woods riders best friend, front wheel in the air and you can go across any terrain! I say that as an encouragement for teaching the skill to your son and to yourself if you guys are gonna ride the woods..

Back to the bikes.. One of the things that is over looked a LOT in the industry is the idea of adding weight to the crank on a modern day 2 stroke MX bike.. Back to Kadie as an example.. By tossing 14 oz's of weight on her fly wheel I could take a scoot that would devastate most amatures in a heart beat and make it so rideable even a beginner could ride her with ease (carefully of course - just dont wick her up to hard:doh:).. Adding the weight made the KX a TORQUE MONSTER that was literally unstoppable on even the highest hills!!

I also added a lighting coil so I could put a whoopin on my buddies at night (winter night rides were our FAVORITES). A very small investment in time and cash and Kadie became street legal (one of many I did) - TALK ABOUT A FUN STREET BIKE!!

Adding "bark busters" is a MUST for woods riding as is a low decible DNR Approved spark arrestor and a SKID PLATE. Seconded ONLY by a large aftermarket fuel tank (I had a four gallon on Kadie) cause pushing aint fun.

Here is something you may find interesting.. Although I only had to rebuild Kadie 2 times during the many many hours of fun we had together - it was SIMPLE and CHEAP (well under 150 bucks) to bring her right back to brand new WOW ZZZZ WOW WOW WOW!!

 

All of that and I gotta tell you, EVERYTHING above fits the parameters of almost ALL modern day 2 stroke MX Bikes!! You would probably REALLY enjoy a Yamaha YZ250 set up like I am talking about.. I personally LOVE the way the YZ handled when set up right for the woods. On the same token though, ALL of the metric (Honda, Kawi, Suzy) are right there too..

Something that you want to consider though if your going to go shop for one.. Do a little research on top end repair costs. I know that certain years of the CR's were REALLY pricey just for a jug - they started getting close to 4 stroke top end parts pricing..

 

I havent mentioned the mighty name of KTM yet for a purpose.. Around here, KTM is like the holy grail of woods bikin - almost entering into the zone of Harley's for the street.. Me and Kadie used to love to go by em on the back wheel - I can only HOPE that my good buddy Donny reads this and takes some time to sign up and respond - he has been riding KTM for a good while now:guitarist 2:- YZMAN400 - you out there?).. Anyway,, KTM makes a number of fabulous 2 strokers. I know my buddy Donny is still riding his 300 (never did get a chance to ride that one Donny) - cool thing about his is that it came WITH ELECTRIC START!! YZman is a really good friend of mine who has covered many miles of very tight Michigan trails with me - he currently spins wrenches in a Yamaha shop out in Montana (traitor).. If he happens to see this and responds he can fill you in on some of the finer points of the KTM,, and the others as far as that goes:bighug:

 

All that said:

Venny, I dont know you personally. No idea how much experience you have "in the woods" so to speak. Please dont take offense to what I am about to say in ANY WAY my friend. Gonna talk to you like I would my best friend OK? If you are just beginning into the dirt scene with little to no experience in the woods, just looking to have some fun with playing with your son, have no idea how to "ride a wheelie" but want to learn (doing so WILL inspire confidence), want to keep everything inside the realm of a good fun learning expeirence between you and that precious son of yours? This is what I would do.

 

I would pick up a good, slightly used, TTR125 - maybe a Honda 150 or an Honda XR200.. May sound crazy but, by putting the biggest - fattest knobby on the rear, toss a little gearing at it (larger sprocket on front = geared for 40/45 top speed = easy to wheelie), set up the suspention for your weight (easy to do). The smaller four strokes make learnging to ride the back wheel easy = start out by learning to "cat walk" (feet down sliding on the grass), this will help you find and "feel" the balance point. After you can "Cat Walk" really good - doing figure eights and all that, you can begin placing your feet up on the pegs.. Then learn to control the wheelie by modulating your rear brake while holding the balance point. Then practice shifting into a higher gear as your front end starts to drop out of the balance point.. Just takes practice but the practice will be a LOT more fun on a smaller, not so spunky bike.

Again, sounds crazy but if you do this you will probably go into it thinking,, yea,, I could do that - I can always resell the TTR after a year of playing with it.. I have heard that thought many times over and truthfully gotta say.. Most of the folks who do what I am talking about end up keeping the little TTR cause,, well,, because they are SOOOO much fun and SOOOO user friendly - even for "bigger" guys like me and you.

 

Couple more suggestions regardless of what bike(s) you choose:

- Set both you and your sons bikes up for your sizes. Adjust suspention settings including aftermarket mono springs and fork springs if needed. Stand on pegs - purchase bars so they are comfortable when standing up - learn to ride on the pegs, standing up is your friend!

- Get GOOD safety equipment for both of you. All of these are just as important as the other: BOOTS, CHEST PROTECTORS, NECK BRACES, KNEE GUARDS, FULL FACE MX HELMETS, GOGGLES and GLOVES!!

- Let your son spin his own wrenches under your guidance, get him an assortment of tools of his own..

 

Ol Puc wishes both of you nothing but the best of many hours of fun together out there!!!

[Beach Bum]

Love the 2 stroke YZ250. Down here weight is bad with all the sand. Learning to wheelie in a sand pit is cool because when you eventually (and you will) end up on your ass watching the bike flying off on it's own, at least it'll land in something soft. Not as many bent bars to replace. Bark busters for sure.

[Ventureless]

Thanks Puc! I do have some off-road/woods experience, but not for the last 20 years. As a youngster, started out on a Honda 50, then to an XR100, and the last one I actually owned was an XR200. Now of course I have my Vstrom and have done some light off road with it. The Strom is like the KLR where it is more street than off road. I do a lot of standing on it whether on or off road. I like the idea of a 2 stroke just so I can get more power from something smaller and lighter.

 

There re are a lot of TTR 125s for sale around me, but it is so small for me frame wise, I am not sure I could do it.

 

I will ill post here later again this week when I pick a few out to go look at this weekend and get some opinions.

 

I would get myself a KTM if they weren't so damn expensive for one in my size. I am good with the 65 for a grand for the boy.

 

I know it will be a good time with my son. I have tried keeping up with him on my Vstrom and with the street tires I have, I can't get the traction to keep up!!!

[cowpuc]

Awesome Venny!! That being the case,, you would probably really have fun on a 250 2 stroke MX bike.. Can always toss a flywheel weight on one of those too if you wanted to - 8 oz weight on a 250 is amazing!! That would really mellow out the hit and add trail torque. Another thing that I liked doing with my MX converted to trail bikes was either finding a rear wheel off a matching "enduro" bike and swapping it or lacing up an 18 inch rim on the stock MX hub. A KDX 250 Kawi matched my KX perfectly. Most (if not all) MX bikes come with 19 inch rear wheels and run a lower profile tire.. Works good on an MX track but most woods riders (myself included) liked the 18 inch better = taller profile tires, far better selection of tires (can run cheap ones too) and you can squeeze a much wider tire under your scoot and run lower air pressures = better hook up..

 

Inside scoop,, had a fair amount of problems with the Suzuki power valves, smaller than KX500 = cranks and tranny problems as far as Kawi's go, CR's seem to be good bikes but, like Beach Bum started to mention - YZ's = YUM YUM!!

Know what cha mean on the KTM's,, pricey. They do seem to hold their value pretty good though..

 

Good luck in your search, looking forward to hearing how it all goes!! Also,, dont forget to take lots of 's,, we LOVE 's

 

[syscrusher]

Those two stroke 500s are reputed to be hard to handle, as in lot's of people scared themselves pretty bad flipping the throttle open too quick.

I've seen testimonials from seasoned motoXers who said it was just too much power to control and counter-productive in racing.

Because of that rep and their scarcity they are commanding a pretty good price too.

 

My state won't allow installing dual-sport kits to title MX bikes for street riding. It doesn't matter if the bike has been titled in another state, if the Material Statement of Origin (MSO - title prerequisite) said "For Off-Road Use Only" then there is no way to get a Nebraska title for it. The only work-around here would be models that had a MX version and a legal version that you could then do parts substitution on. If you're going to want to ride it on the street then check on that factor for your state.

 

Maybe two stroke, street legal, older KTM EXC 300? IMHO it might be difficult to get a good bike with a limit of $2000 but good luck to you.

[Ventureless]

Those two stroke 500s are reputed to be hard to handle, as in lot's of people scared themselves pretty bad flipping the throttle open too quick.

I've seen testimonials from seasoned motoXers who said it was just too much power to control and counter-productive in racing.

Because of that rep and their scarcity they are commanding a pretty good price too.

 

My state won't allow installing dual-sport kits to title MX bikes for street riding. It doesn't matter if the bike has been titled in another state, if the Material Statement of Origin (MSO - title prerequisite) said "For Off-Road Use Only" then there is no way to get a Nebraska title for it. The only work-around here would be models that had a MX version and a legal version that you could then do parts substitution on. If you're going to want to ride it on the street then check on that factor for your state.

 

Maybe two stroke, street legal, older KTM EXC 300? IMHO it might be difficult to get a good bike with a limit of $2000 but good luck to you.

 

I don't need it for street at all. I will be keeping my Vstrom to ride street with.

 

Also don't need a 2 stroke 500. I have been looking hard at 250s. I think a 2 stroke 250 would suit me just fine.

 

There is plenty around me for sale in my price range. Just not sure what to pick. I plan on looking at several this week and picking the ones I think are best. I will most likely post them and get some more opinions once I have picked a few. And I don't need new and I don't need pretty. Just big enough for me and mechanically sound!!!

[Daveand Barbie]

My 250 and 350 'Tacos get the job done better than anything I could imagine.

[cowpuc]

Those two stroke 500s are reputed to be hard to handle, as in lot's of people scared themselves pretty bad flipping the throttle open too quick.

I've seen testimonials from seasoned motoXers who said it was just too much power to control and counter-productive in racing.

Because of that rep and their scarcity they are commanding a pretty good price too.

 

My state won't allow installing dual-sport kits to title MX bikes for street riding. It doesn't matter if the bike has been titled in another state, if the Material Statement of Origin (MSO - title prerequisite) said "For Off-Road Use Only" then there is no way to get a Nebraska title for it. The only work-around here would be models that had a MX version and a legal version that you could then do parts substitution on. If you're going to want to ride it on the street then check on that factor for your state.

 

Maybe two stroke, street legal, older KTM EXC 300? IMHO it might be difficult to get a good bike with a limit of $2000 but good luck to you.

 

Thats pretty strange Sys, here in Michigan we have a BUNCH of single track dirt bike trails that are "loops" thru the National/State Land forests in both the Lower and Upper Penninsula's. We also have the Michigan Cross Country Cycle Trail - a gorgeous single track trail with 30" wide room for handlebars to pass thru (its tight but it keeps the quads out - they have their own trail system anyway:missingtooth:). For many years I belonged to the Cycle Conservation Club of Michigan and we also have Off Road Chapters consisting of groups of single track dirt bikers covering all of Michigan. I preached "street legaling" dirt bikes for many years to enable us dirt bikers for many many years. It was always fairly easy to do here, add a lighting coil, lights, a horn, a fold away mirror, some DOT Knobs, plates and insurance and you could connect all the trail loops and ride our Cross Country Trail legally! Adds a whole new deminsion to the world of MX Bikes:thumbsup:

 

I must have converted over 500 MX bikes at my shop thru the years. I also personally know LOTS of Michigan riders who have done their own too.. I always wished there would have been a way to convert Quads too, would have been a BLAST to have a street legal Banshee or Honda TRX250R with street tires on em.. The snag with doing that here in Michigan is the "straight" axle those quads had - we have a "green sheet" we have to work from that a Police Officer checks off when you have the bike inspected to obtain the street Title. Part of that includes a "differential" section for any 4 wheeled vehicle.. No differential - no street legal status.

 

Funny how the States differ. I will never forget the first time I pulled into Salina Utah when heading west. Kids riding all over town on dirtbikes and quads:think:. Got talking with a youngster about it, asked if it was legal.. He proudly acclaimed it as part of the fun of living in Utah. Then a guy pulls into the same station with a BUMPER hitch on the back of his truck pulling a camping trailer, camping trailer also had a BUMPER hitch with a boat behind it (Michigan you can do that with a 5th Wheel but NOT a bumper hitch) - when asked if that was legal he had pretty much the same response. Then I asked an MX biker if there were any trails up into the mountains from there,, he just points and says, yea,, its all trails:confused24:,, we just ride:witch_brew:.. Then I asked the same question about camping over night in a tent in there,, he laughed and said - anywhere you want to,, then he said "you folks in Michigan must really have it rough" and rode off..

[Freebird]

Mr. Puc, I see that you didn't mention the older Yamaha 500 4 strokes? If you did, I just missed it. One of my all time favorite bikes was my old Yamaha Thumper. Not even sure what year it was but I think I owned it in the early to mid 80's. This one was the street legal version but I spent many great times with it on the trails. It was a torque monster. A bit finicky to start because if you didn't have that piston in the top position, it would kick the crap out of you. It sprained my ankle more than once. I loved that bike though. At that time, I lived less than 5 miles from where I worked so also rode it to work very often.

[cowpuc]

Mr. Puc, I see that you didn't mention the older Yamaha 500 4 strokes? If you did, I just missed it. One of my all time favorite bikes was my old Yamaha Thumper. Not even sure what year it was but I think I owned it in the early to mid 80's. This one was the street legal version but I spent many great times with it on the trails. It was a torque monster. A bit finicky to start because if you didn't have that piston in the top position, it would kick the crap out of you. It sprained my ankle more than once. I loved that bike though. At that time, I lived less than 5 miles from where I worked so also rode it to work very often.

 

Ahhh yes,, shame on me Mr. Bird,, shame on me:buttkick:!! How dare I miss one of the trail icon's of yesteryear my friend:thumbsup:..

Like you mentioned, I also remember how good ol Mother Yamaha took liberity to help teach us how to start a REAL thumper by placing a small window on the rocker cover above the right end of the cam shaft. Then they put a small white line on the cam to visibly show boneheads that couldn't "feel" the cam land between the valves for easy starting - a four stroke kickstarting technique that saved many many potential broken knees and ankles (also turned a 50 kick bike into a 1 or 2 kick magic machine:big-grin-emoticon:

I actually tried to teach that easy start method to the guy that bought Olivia Don. Months later when I saw him at MD, I was surprised when he told me that the top notch mechanic who "tuned" Olivia for him told him and he didnt have to do that any longer.. I just shook my head while I sat n watched him kick that poor ol 42 over and over trying to demonstrate the prowess of that mechanics advice - I guess some of the things we learned thru the years of biking still hold true my brother:big-grin-emoticon:!!

 

Oh,, by the way,, those 500 Yams were AWESOME flat-trackers!! Talk about maniac but controllable torque to hang the back tire out there! :checkeredflag:

[Freebird]

Yea, they also offered that motor in a street bike version for a while. Never rode one though. The little sight glass worked well. The only time I had problems was when I was riding off road and had it good and hot. Then it could be temperamental to start and would sometimes kick the crap out of me even when I thought I had it lined up. Most of the time, I wouldn't even look at it because you learn where it is by feel after a while. Loved that bike though. Would actually buy another one if I came across one in good condition and reasonably priced. Another thing, am I thinking about another bike or did it use the frame for the oil reservoir?

[cowpuc]

Yea, they also offered that motor in a street bike version for a while. Never rode one though. The little sight glass worked well. The only time I had problems was when I was riding off road and had it good and hot. Then it could be temperamental to start and would sometimes kick the crap out of me even when I thought I had it lined up. Most of the time, I wouldn't even look at it because you learn where it is by feel after a while. Loved that bike though. Would actually buy another one if I came across one in good condition and reasonably priced. Another thing, am I thinking about another bike or did it use the frame for the oil reservoir?

 

Nope,, your thinking about the right bike Boss.. That is called a "dry sump" lube system = oil is pumped in and out of an external holding area, a wet sump system is where the oil pump scavenges from an internal engine oil res = like our Yamaha Ventures. Good ol Yamaha stepped up to the plate with even the early model of the 500's with that frame res, it worked great cause it allowed the oil to cool much better.. We had a LOT of problems with our early XR Honda's back in the day because they would destroy the oil so fast from heat.. Then Honda went dry sump on them in 85,, MUCH more durable!!

Same deal with the early Honda 750's Boss, up to 78 (all the SOHC's) they were all dry sump bikes - thats why they had an "oil bag".. This also made those early models VERY durable motors. Then they went to the 750 DOHC's starting in 79 and the dry sump 750 went bye bye.. I LOVED building chops using the SOHC's, they were fun to build and I always liked the look of the plumbed in oil bags..

[cowpuc]

Since you were kind enough to share a pic Don,, here are a couple pics of one of my 750 SOHC Chops.. Look carefully under the front of the seat, notice the old Amen Chrome tank? That was the oil reservoir (oil bag) on that build.. Same principle as that pretty looking 500 you posted.

 

 

[Freebird]

Those are just very cool bikes. I'm afraid my back wouldn't like them now days.

[syscrusher]

"you folks in Michigan must really have it rough" and rode off..

 

Yeah, it sucks Puc. I went around and around with the DMV here and that was what I was finally told about the MSO. I asked about a builder title and they told me I could try something like that but I would have to burn the titles of TWO street legal bikes to come out with a single street title and even then I would have to cut the neck off of one of the street legal ones and weld it onto the frame of my builder so that it would match a street legal serial number. Some question as well whether they would let me have the engine from an MX in my builder anyway so no thanx.

 

Lot's of states are way more tolerant that way than the big red 'N' but thems the rules here. In a perfect world my CR250R would be streetable but instead it don't get too much use.

 

It's hard to believe they allow a boat trailer behind a camper that's only attached to a bumper hitch. Please tell me it's at least a class 3?