Advice needed. Engine intermittently stops

[Rhybsky]

Hi Everyone. I am new to the forum and need some advice. I have a 2013 Royal Star and had an issue about 2 weeks where the engine died. It was like it ran out of fuel but I had 1/4 tank left. Last week it happened again. This time it was 3/4 full. Both times it started up after choking the bike for about 10-15 min. I dropped it off at the dealer and when I told them issue they had no idea what it could be. I told them to look at the fuel pump and fuel pump points. They checked it today and said it tested fine and the points look new. I have had the carbs cleaned and synced. I have on 31000km on the bike and the dealer has performed all the services except the odd oil change. They are having the mechanic take it home for night as he lives out of town and of course the bike is running fine for them now. Any thoughts on what else it can be? Thanks in advance for the help.

[cowpuc]

Never owned a 2nd Gen but if I had that new of one and was having problems like your describing I think I would start by draining the bowls into a glass jar and looking for water, check the tank vent for blockage and making sure that my fuel lines were not being pinched somehow.. If that didnt produce, move on to double checking the shops findings with the pump and then to the pump relay..

 

This didnt begin happening after washing the bike or riding in rain did it?

[Rhybsky]

No. I haven't washed the bike lately and I haven't ridden in the rain for sometime. The dealer mentioned possibly having water in the fuel but they thought it was odd it would act up a week later and several tanks of fuel later.

[garyS-NJ]

Was it fully warm when it died (so should be no need to choke it to restart?) Or did you let it sit 15 minutes before retry in it..? Or did it just take 15 minutes of choke/no choke/choke.... to get it going again? Maybe something taking out ignition when it's warm. Bring a spare sparkplug and ride close to home and when it dies, verify you got spark.. and you could be getting and re-set ting water but it never really leaves the bowls till you drain it.

[Mike G in SC]

Still sounds like the fuel pump, but at $300 for the part, they won't do that easily. My dealer in SC has replaced 3 for me under warranty (two on RSTD one on my RSV).

Twice they did it at my request even though it did not fail for them. And each time, that was the problem.

 

The one on my RSV is failing now, I think. It is out of warranty so I ordered points, will install this week.

A friend told me yesterday he found a ebay pump for under $40 that matches the RSV pump and does not have to turn off the petcock.

 

Another problem I had on my RSTD was the ignition. It was not failing on the run but periodically when I started it.

They replaced the ignition, solved it but now needs two keys.

 

Sounds like when it fails and you try to restart, it is turning, just not firing. Right?

[Rhybsky]

It was fully warm when it died. Rode about 400km the second time it happened. The first time I was sitting waiting for a tow for 20 min then it fired up after choking it. The second time I just choked it for 15 min and it started up. I never smelled fuel like it was flooded when I had the choke on and trying to start it. Not sure if this matters but I also run 91 octane because I am not a fan of ethanol added in the fuel.

[XV1100SE]

It was fully warm when it died. Rode about 400km the second time it happened. The first time I was sitting waiting for a tow for 20 min then it fired up after choking it. The second time I just choked it for 15 min and it started up. I never smelled fuel like it was flooded when I had the choke on and trying to start it. Not sure if this matters but I also run 91 octane because I am not a fan of ethanol added in the fuel.

 

Hi Rhybsky ! I'm in Kitchener so not that far from you.

 

Clarify something for me....you say you choked the bike for 20 minutes one time and 15 minutes the next. Are you saying you had the choke out with the bike off and just let it sit that long? Normally I'll pull the choke out and press the starter until it starts then ease the choke in a bit. After a minute I'll turn the choke off and then go riding. I think having the choke out and not starting the bike doesn't accomplish anything.

 

What you describe is a problem with the fuel pump. When the bike stopped running, were you running at fairly high rpms? Bike under acceleration?

 

First time my pump acted up was we were leaving Cambridge and going from a 60kph zone to an 80kph. As I got up to 90/95kph the bike started sputtering and stopped running. Pulled to the shoulder and all it would do is turn over but not start. We had a cigarette and when we finished I tried again (without choke) and it started up immediately. We then proceeded on our ride down thru Paris and back to Kitchener without problem.

 

Second time it acted up, we were getting on the 403 in Brantford and just past the on ramp it started sputtering and died. Wouldn't start so I let it sit for 15 minutes and it started fine. Rode to Ancaster and then took highway 8 back to Kitchener.

 

I spoke to the dealer (Performance Cycle in Cambridge) and explained the symptoms and told them I thought it was the pump. They changed it under warranty.

 

Way I see it is the points on the pump get worn and/or burned. During riding the pump stops doing it's job. Under heavy acceleration or continued high rpm the carbs starve for fuel.

 

Here is a test for you....turn on the key and listen for the pump clicking. Start the bike and turn off the fuel petcock and let it run until the engine dies or starts stuttering (should be about 5 minutes). Turn the key off. Turn the petcock back on and turn the key to the start position (don't hit the starter) and listen for the clicking of the pump. Your fuel bowls should be empty so the pump will run long enough for you to hear it. If you don't hear the pump clicking then it has definitely failed. If it does click, that doesn't rule it out. You can repeat this a few times in a row but keep in mind your radiator fan will come on when the bike gets hot.

 

Second item....there is a post about bypassing the pump. Read it and have a length of fuel line with you when you ride. Next time it dies, try starting the bike and if it doesn't restart bypass the pump and see if it starts up right away. If it starts....then it's your pump.

 

Third thing...do the pump test a couple times (bike running with petcock off). First time you do it, listen for the pump clicking. Second time, before starting the bike, open the fuel cap slowly and listen for a "hissing" sound. If your vent is blocked you'll hear air entering the tank. You can do this when you fill with gas as well. Some have reported that with a blocked vent the bike would die when the tank was below 1/4 and they could hear hissing when they took the cap off because of the difference in pressure inside/outside the tank.

 

Fourth (sorry for the long post)...next time it dies, try turning the key on without starting it. If you can hear the pump clicking with the key on then your carb bowls are empty and the pump wasn't providing fuel to keep them full. If you don't hear clicking, take the left side cover off, turn the key on, and tap the fuel pump lightly with the butt end of a screw driver. If it suddenly starts clicking then your pump was "stuck". Push the starter and see if the bike runs. If tapping on the fuel pump gets it clicking again....then get the dealer to warranty the pump.

[XV1100SE]

One other comment....if you suspect water in the fuel, with a 1/2 tank of gas, put in 1/2 to a full can of Seafoam Motor Treatment. It will get rid of moisture. Seafoam is also good as a stabilizer for winter storage of the bike.

[cowpuc]

Heyyy,, wait a second here,, is your scoot still covered under warranty? If so I would handle it just like a new car,, have problems - give it to the dealer and tell em you would really like it back fixed.

If that isn't the case, continueing with this discussion,,, IMHO - even if its been a while since getting wet it is still possible to actually buy contaminated fuel.. I personally try not to buy fuel when the gas haulers are filling up the underground tanks.. All under the "theory" that them putting fuel in is stirring up trouble down below..

Might not be a bad idea to check things out like mentioned above, if all checks out - ride it till what you are describing happens again.. When it does, if the Gen 2's have a fuel petcock,, turn OFF the fuel as soon as the symptons appear. Now open the drains and see how much fuel is in them. If they are low level or empty you know you are on the right track with it being fuel flow..

Then close the drains, turn the key on and off to run the pump - listen carefully to the pump - it should eventually stop clicking as the bowls fill (you should actually hear it slow down till it stops completely). Now with NO choke - hit the starter and she should restart just fine. Keep in mind thru all of this that a bad fuel pump doesnt just mean the points are bad - there is more to the pump than just points..

[XV1100SE]

... I dropped it off at the dealer and when I told them issue they had no idea what it could be.

 

 

Like Cowpuc mentioned, let the dealer fix the bike under warranty but it is still a good idea to tell them what the problem is or at the very least what you've tried to trouble shoot it. Intermittent issues can be difficult to fix.

 

1) what dealer are you taking the bike to?

2) is it a Canadian bike or U.S. ? U.S. warranty work has to be done in the States. Canadian warranty is only for bikes originally sold in Canada. Easy way to tell is to look at the speedometer - if it shows both mph and kph then it is a U.S. bike. If it just shows kph then it is a Canadian bike and is covered under the Canadian warranty.

[Rhybsky]

Thanks for all the info. So to answer some questions. Yes the bike is under warranty. I bought the bike in Canada at Inglis Cycle in London and have taken it there for all service. When issued happened I was at the side of the road and really couldn't hear any clicking. I was trying to start it with the choke on and hitting the start button. The reason is, is because I thought there was no fuel left in the bowls. Inglis did a fuel flush, carb clean and checked all the hoses. Everything is fine as there was no dirt or water to be found. They looked at the fuel pumpand the points looked like they were new so that is why they think it is not the fuel pump. They also checked the wiring to the pump. I am on my way to get it and to tell them I want the pump replaced. Thanks again for all the info.

[cowpuc]

Your more than welcome Rhy, best wishes in getting your scoot up to snuff..

[Rhybsky]

So here is an update. I just picked the bike and talked to the dealer about replacing the fuel pump. They won't replace it unless it fails because they don't want to be stuck with the bill if Yamaha tests it and it comes back ok. When I got it home I ran it with the petcock off and the engine stop. I turned the petcock back on and then I heard the fuel pump working just fine. I will do this a couple of more times. I may also call Performance Cycle to see if they will cover it as they have seen this issue before. I am planning on doing a week long trip and don't want to be stuck at the side of the road.

[Flyinfool]

What you are describing can also be a plugged vent, as you use gas you are building a vacuum in the tank until the pump can no longer overcome that vacuum, at which time the bike acts like it is running out of gas, cuz it is. After sitting for 15-20 minutes the pressure will equalize and the bike will start and run fine again. To test for this, when the bike quits on you, open the gas tank and listen for a hiss of air. the bike will also start and run just fine immediately after opening the gas cap. If opening the gas cap solves the problem it is not a bad pump but a plugged vent. Insects have been known to crawl up into the vent.

[dave_wells]

So here is an update. I just picked the bike and talked to the dealer about replacing the fuel pump. They won't replace it unless it fails because they don't want to be stuck with the bill if Yamaha tests it and it comes back ok. When I got it home I ran it with the petcock off and the engine stop. I turned the petcock back on and then I heard the fuel pump working just fine. I will do this a couple of more times. I may also call Performance Cycle to see if they will cover it as they have seen this issue before. I am planning on doing a week long trip and don't want to be stuck at the side of the road.

 

I had the same issue.

The pump would not die it died twice on the road

Most of the time it would be a pain to it going after it sat for a few days

Shop told me the same thing after it was picked up at my home and taken to the shop . Yes it started and gave them no trouble.

I told the shop to keep the bike it is under warranty and need to be resolved I don't want it back until it is fixed

Then asked for the phone number to the person they spoke to at Yamaha

 

So... It took some talking to . After doing a few of the suggestions people have posted

 

 

You need to call Yamaha and explain the problem. Be nice to them

Tell them everything you did that leads you to believe it is the fuel pump

 

 

You purchased this bike as a touring bike .

You would like it fixed while it is here in the garage Not while out on a tour a few hundred miles from home

Yamaha has a good and a solid motor and a good reputation and you understand that an intermittent problem is hard to to fix

How ever I have a problem with the engine just cutting out as if it ran out of fuel,

I need this resolved before I am stranded on the side of the road and not in a very good mood

Due to the bike towed a shop and myself in a hotel waiting for a part to resolve an issue that could be resolved over the phone with Yamaha in this very moment.

 

It worked for me ..

[Rhybsky]

Thanks Dave for the advice of calling Yamaha. I called them and I was on the phone for 20 min. I explained everything that I have done to test it. I explained everything that the dealer has performed and they still won't replace the fuel pump. The Yamaha rep was telling me that it is a relay but then when I explained it couldn't be then he agreed, but still said that it is not the pump. I am going to see if the vent is clear this afternoon and if does happen again I will see how much fuel drains out with the petcock off. I will say that there is a ton of info on this site and you all have been very helpful!!

[Mike G in SC]

As noted, you may want to read up on how to GRAVITY FEED (bypass the pump) if you are out on the road. I have posted this a couple of times. I will see if I can do a search and post the link.

 

Found it, or one of them. Here is cut/paste:

 

My 2010 post on Gravity Feed:

 

Mine died last year, under warranty. Shop replaced it. (it's a few hundred if your pocket)

But it died 100% when it died. When you turned the key,,, no clicks.

 

I did do the gravity feed,,,, to prove to me & the shop it was the pump. But also to ride it for a week.

 

The gravity feed will make it run just fine,, except maybe the bottom of the tank or MAJOR throttling.

 

To do gravity feed,,, let me remember,,,,

undo the tank bolt under the seat. Lift the tank up a couple of inches (don't need to undo the front, it will pivot.) use a needle nose to pull the gas line that runs from the tank off the fuel filter. Then pull the hose off the carburetor feed line and put the line from the tank to that feed. Now you are running straight from pitcock to the carb. I suggest you also open up the left side panel and disconnect the fuel pump electrical connection so it won't puke out remaining gas. If you think you want to run this a while (more than emergency) you could also include a $3 inline filter from Wal-mart just below the tank. Buy a few inches of fuel line to run between the pitcock and the filter, rather than cut your good line.

 

I ran it this way a few hundred miles till I got a new pump. But, in your case, this may prove if it is the pump or something else. Stick close to home till you know.

 

Mike G.

[Rhybsky]

Thanks Mike. After a lengthy conversation with the dealer yesterday they are replacing it on Monday. The beauty of the Venture is there is not much to them so he said that is really the only thing it can be. I will look into doing the gravity feed just in case. Thanks for all the help guys.

 

Rob

[XV1100SE]

... Gravity Feed:

 

...To do gravity feed,,, let me remember,,,,

1) Turn off the petcock

undo the tank bolt under the seat. Lift the tank up a couple of inches (don't need to undo the front, it will pivot.) use a needle nose to pull the gas line that runs from the tank off the fuel filter. Then pull the hose off the carburetor feed line and put the line from the tank to that feed. Now you are running straight from pitcock to the carb. I suggest you also open up the left side panel and disconnect the fuel pump electrical connection so it won't puke out remaining gas. If you think you want to run this a while (more than emergency) you could also include a $3 inline filter from Wal-mart just below the tank. Buy a few inches of fuel line to run between the pitcock and the filter, rather than cut your good line.....

 

See red text.

[Mike G in SC]

See red text.

 

And then,,,,,,, Turn on Petcock! LOL, thanks Mike G

[XV1100SE]

True... gas on to start the bike. :-)