05 V Star 650 Custom second cylinder not getting a spark

[jjven68]

Im appealing to the wisdom of this site to find a mistery.

 

Well here goes.

I'm not getting a spark on second cylinder.

I've gone thru the diagnose on the clymer's manual and all indicates is the igniter unit.

I've changed it twice and same.

I've switched the wires from the front primary coil to the second and I get a spark. Hence it's not the coil.

A mechanic friend said it was the pickup coil. I changed it. Same symptom.

Both sparks and caps tested and good.

The only thing left is the stator, which test fine and produces spark in both coils.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

[Beau-Kat]

Sounds like you've done your homework.

 

I had a 2002 VStar650 Classic for several years. I regularly maintained it and it ran great.

Sold it a couple years ago and after about 700 miles the pickup coil went out. The new owner bought the part and I installed it. No problems for him since.

The VStar 650s had lots of problems with the pickup coils.

 

A really big problem was with the rear diff going out.

Due to insufficient factory greasing (and I think poor design), the pinion gear teeth shear off at the driveshaft coupling. Ask me how I know...

 

The VStar 1100s have a different/better lubrication means for that area.

 

Hope you find your spark issue.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Beau-Kat

[Vonwolf]

I had this problem on my Venture's number 2 cylinder everything checked out fine, but it never fired. It turned out the wires were bleeding most of the spark energy out before it could fire the fuel. I changed the wire and cap and it's firing on all 4 again you never know?

[Beau-Kat]

Im appealing to the wisdom of this site to find a mistery.

 

Well here goes.

I'm not getting a spark on second cylinder.

I've gone thru the diagnose on the clymer's manual and all indicates is the igniter unit.

I've changed it twice and same.

I've switched the wires from the front primary coil to the second and I get a spark. Hence it's not the coil.

A mechanic friend said it was the pickup coil. I changed it. Same symptom.

Both sparks and caps tested and good.

The only thing left is the stator, which test fine and produces spark in both coils.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

So did you find your problem?

Rusty

[jjven68]

So did you find your problem?

Rusty

 

Hey Beau-Kat, thanks for asking...NOPE...

 

Changed pickup coil and nothing. Same symptoms.

 

There is only one more thing I need to try.

Originally I was told it needed a new CDI box, so I went I bought one used on eBay and got the same results.

What are the odds that 2 different boxes would produced the same symptom. I even put a CDI box from an V Star 1100 to see if it would do anything and same.

So, I am gonna have to bite the bullet and install a brand new box ($275 none refundable).

Is the last thing I can think off...adter that I thing I am just going to take it to the shooting range and use it as a prop...UGH!

 

 

Thanks for asking...

 

Stay tune

[Beau-Kat]

Check out this link.

But I didn't read it all the way through.

Maybe there's something in there for ya.

http://www.starbikeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12250

[jjven68]

Check out this link.

But I didn't read it all the way through.

Maybe there's something in there for ya.

http://www.starbikeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12250

 

Thanks for the tip @Beau-Kat...

But that trend did not got anywhere...

 

I haven't been able to, But I am going to take my CDI box to a friend mechanic to see if it works.

 

Stay tune

[Beau-Kat]

Funny. Don't know why the link won't work for you.

I just clicked on that link and it worked for me.

Maybe if you cut and paste the url into your browser.

Anyway, I'll be interested in what you will end up finding out about your bike.

[Freebird]

Worked for me.

[jjven68]

Oh, no, it wasn't about the link...

I meant the content did not help since they did not achieve any solution either.

I am comtemplating the possibility of buying another 650.

Stay tune.

 

Thank you!

[jjven68]

@Beau-Kat @Freebies Ok replaced CDI and that's not it either.

One more thing is Ignition System Diode.

It must be test twice by reverting the leads.

1st test comes correct, second because the way is described is a little uncertain.

It says is supposed to show 0 or very little continuity.

I'm getting 8 Ohms. Is that little continuity?

I have tested another diode same way but is a 2001 650 and the diode part number is different. This one shows 0.1 Omhs for the second test which makes more sense when saying "little continuity".

Could this be the cause of the second/rear cylinder not getting a spark?

Edited September 6, 2015 by jjven68

[Beau-Kat]

Not sure on that one.

[jjven68]

I have order the Ignition System Diode.

Will update when installed!

[VerntureVet]

To properly test a diode you can't just use ohms.

 

http://en-us.fluke.com/training/training-library/test-tools/digital-multimeters/how-to-test-diodes-using-a-digital-multimeter.html

[yamagrl]

I know this sounds simplistic...but have you checked continuity of all the wires and connections. A broken wire will cause the same failure.

 

I wouldn't bite the bullet just yet. If you have hooked up 2 additional igniter units, then that's probly not the problem. It sounds like a bad connection.

 

It's kinda like if a running light don't work and you've changed the bulb, the switch, the socket, the fuse, the battery and it still don't work...maybe you have a broken wire...

 

You mentioned Clymer manual. Here is a link to the factory manual.

 

http://650ccnd.com/webslinger/Mods/Manuals/VSTAR_650_Service_MAN.pdf

 

It's not searchable. You have to use it manually and that's kinda cumbersome. But it's all there. Elect starts at 269, ignition circuit diagram is 274 and the main elect diagram is at 325.

 

I always print my manuals out. It's about 35-40 dollars at Office Depot. I think they can do it using the above link.

 

Heather

[jjven68]

@VerntureVet thanks for the tip.

I installed the new one today and nothing. @yamagrl Thanks for the tips and link. I have done all that but I planned to do it all over again because now that all components have been tested and proven right all is left to do is restart from zero and go over every connection and wire.

Wish me luck, this bike has become a challenge and a nightmare...(Fun though)

[yamagrl]

Got my fingers crossed for you.

[yamagrl]

Here's a good website for you. http://www.650ccnd.com/

[VerntureVet]

Get you one of these or something like it to for a visual aid.

 

Ignition Tester

 

Verify cylinder compression is within specs via your service manual.

Verify the seat for the plug is clean and free of anything that could dog out the grounding of the plug on both the plug and the head. You can tape wire around the outside of your plug socket letting an exposed piece of copper wrap around to the inside of the socket. Seat the socket onto the plug and put an ohm meter on the wire and make sure you have a good ground to the battery. Also check for -0- ohms from the plug base to someplace close to your coil.

I have in the past found that some crap on the plug seat on the head had cooked on over time and caused a bad ground.

 

Install a new plug after checking spark gap.

 

Install Ignition checker on a working plug to make sure it works and to get use to how to read it.

 

Move it to the suspect plug.

 

No Spark = change the plug wire or swap it with one you have verified works on other cylinders.

 

Check your wire routing and make sure its not getting messed with. Hard to tell with wires sometimes but if it works on another head it should be OK.

 

Still no spark after that you will need to check the coil. Now you can unplug the coil and do the checks by ohming them out. Don't just unplug the suspect coil. Unplug them all. WHY? typical multi coil ignition systems will share a common Hot fed from the fuse box and the ignition Box gives the coil its ground when it is time to fire. You don't want to be reading threw another coil. I have in the past found a good checking/new coil not fire because of ANOTHER coil that did fire but was malfunctioning was bleeding off enough power on the hot side that the misfiring coil would not fire.

 

If the coils all check out good connect them back up. Swap them around if possible and make sure the issue does not follow the coil. try more than on coil if your setup allows it swap 1 for 2 and 2 for 3 etc etc.

 

A mini clamp on current doughnut connected to the hot on the coil could tell you if the coil is even getting a pulse but those can be pricey. The trouble with coil signals is that they happen too fast for a Digital meter to read the ground pulse. (RPM / cyl. = pulses per minute). An analog meter causes its own issue because it applies a small current to check for continuity. In the Electronics world we would use an oscilloscope. I use to have a contraption a friend made back in my MOPAR days that he made with a transistor and an LED but thats not helping you.

 

If the misfire is still hanging consider this.

 

1988 Venture Royale xvz1300 has 4 coils. Three of the 4 coils get there ground directly from the Ignition box. But 1 gets it from the Ignition box and shares the same ground wire with the fuel pump control relay and the tachometer and my fuel pump relay was causing a misfire when I bought the bike.

 

 

Link me the wiring diagram to your specific bike with the exact Make/Model/Year you have and I will have a look and see if I can point you to getting this fixed.

Edited September 13, 2015 by VerntureVet

[yamagrl]

See if these will help.

 

650 ignition circuit Diagram

 

650 Wiring.pdf

 

 

650Wiring diagram

 

650 ignition circuit.pdf

[VerntureVet]

The 650 Ignition looks pretty straight forward.

 

Run do previously mentioned steps and check power to the coil.

 

if you have power disconnect the ground going from coil to the ign. unit and run a wire direct to it.

[Beau-Kat]

Found this way back in my files that I saved when I was searching for a spark issue with my former 2002 vstar 650 Classic.

Didn't know how to attach the word file. So here it is.

Might be relevant, might not.

Rusty

 

 

VSTAR 650 NO SPARK

 

 

Check the pickup coil. It determines when the 2 ignition coils should fire (1 coil per cylinder). The pickup is inside the engine. The 2 wires from the pickup coil exit your left side engine cover where the 3 white stator wires exit. The pickup coil connector is under the gas tank, near the seat. You might be able to get to the connector just by removing the 2 tank bolts and pivoting the tank up an inch or two. The connector only has 2 wires (the stator connector nearby has 3 white wires). Disconnect the pickup connector and measure the coil resistance. It should be 180-220 ohms. You measure the connector half that has the wire going back towards the seat.I bet your coil is open. Have experienced this myself. In fact, every 20k miles on this bike (have 40K now). Buy Honda .

 

 

You need to check if your coil ground is constantly switching. Try to take the connector off the coil, jump power to the hot terminal, then arc the ground terminal to ground quickly. The plug should spark. If it does suspect your crank sensor or ignition module is going bad. Make sure your voltage at the positive terminal is maintaining its 10 to 12 volts with the coil grounded. If not your power side resistance is too high causing a voltage drop.

 

 

I seriously doubt having the choke out caused it to die. Most carbs anymore have enriching circuits and at larger throttle openings don't make a bit of difference. If your bike is fuel injected, the "choke" is actually a fast idle control, nothing else.

 

You might check the pickup coil, the thing that replaced the points 30 years ago. It should be on the end of the crankshaft and will most likely be a retangular shaped thing made of plastic with a little metal tit sticking out next to the crankshaft. I expect your bike has two, one for each plug. Once you've found it, pull the spark plugs out, plug them into the plug caps, make sure the metal portion of the plug is laying on metal, turn the ignition on (not start, just ignition) and with a flat screwdriver, momentarily touch the metal tit. When you touch and remove the the screwdriver, the plug should fire. If you have two pickups, one should fire one plug and the other one the remaining plug.

 

Pickups are notorious for the insulation breaking down internally. They will work when cold, but stop when hot. Other times they die totally, but usually you'll get some missing as a warning a few days before they go. If your bike has two, I could see one failing but not both. If neither one fires a plug, you better check the wiring connections on the ignition system. If you wash your bike a lot or it sets in the rain, you could have corroded connections.

 

If everything is ok, they it could be the cdi box. They seldom fail unless you've hooked the battery up backwards or something, but I guess it's possible for one to go bad on it's own.

It's unlikely that both coils would go bad at the same time - so rule that out.

If the ignition switch went bad, all of the electrics would go out - so rule that out.

That would leave the pulse coil (on the engine), CDI, kill switch (handlebar switch), side stand switch, or wiring (broken wire or unplugged connector).

All of which will have to be tested - there's no simple answer.

I would check the side stand switch first.

Check for spark with it unplugged, then check for spark with it still unplugged and jump the 2 wires together on the wire harness side (I forget which way it works).

 

Update/question: So took the bike into the shop: stator was the problem. They tested all the fuses and connections, kickstand switch etc. Replaced the plugs and the stator assembly. Hurray - starts and runs like a new bike. Only $600 some bucks down the tubes...

 

Now for the question: Since getting the bike back, I'm having (possible) carb issues. Bike starts, runs, idles fine. However; I can't get it to go over about 65 mph. Just won't rev high enough in top gear; low end is ok, but the top end just has no power. Any ideas?

 

Obviously it could be a plugged main jet - not sure where that would have come from, but I've run two tanks of gas through it, one with sea-foam and one with some other injector cleaner, it got incrementally better, but nothing to write home about. Any chance when the replaced the tank they pinched the vacuum line? Would that cause a similar issue? Any other thoughts? I'm not a carb guru - pretty much stay out of those complicated things, and a pain in the neck to get off of the 650 to clean or tear apart. Suggestions?

 

Test the coil like this. You have a power lead and a low side looking fior a ground. figure out which is which then with key on ground the low side. every time it touches ground you should get a spark. It's that lead being grounded that collapses the field and induces the power for spark. This grounding is done through the CDI box. The Capacitor (the C in CDI) allows the field to collapse faster thereby inducing more power to the plug. If when you ground this wire it sparks i'd look in between the CDI and the coil for damaged wiring,

 

Zerozzen, The pick-up coil is not the pair of spark coils. It's more of a Hall-Effect sensor. It sits next to the crank with the stator coil. They are sold together now as one piece. But if you look at an older model you can buy the pick-up coil separately and splice it in. Most Yamaha shops will do this for you if you are so inclined.

Anyone have any experience or concerns installing an aftermarket pick up coil? I think I have isolated my no start / spark issue to a bad pick up coil. I thought I could save a few bucks with this one I found on ebay:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290680556988...84.m1438.l2649

 

This is a pick up coil only part without the connector. I will obviously have to splice into the oem wire and utilize the old connector. I'm a little concerned about any potential oil leaks. I'm assuming I'll have to fish the wiresfrom the new pick up coil through the rubber grommet/connector and make the splice outside the case. ???

I wish I could have found something like that a few years ago when I had my 650. I bought a used stator off ebay and after tearing the bike 1/2 apart and putting in the used part I was good for almost a week before THAT one failed! I ended up buying a new stator from Babbitsonline and was back in business.

 

Lots of good tech info to be had at http://www.650ccnd.com to help you out! I don't remember the specifics, but I know on some models (pre 2005?) you can buy just the pick up coil, but the later models it was part of the stator assembly.

 

At 39 bucks, it's sure worth a roll of the dice! Let us know how it turns out for you.