fuel pump points

[Bubber]

Well I took the pump out the bike because a week or so I was riding to work when I passed someone and the bike decided to just crap out. This is the third time this has happened and it is really starting to piss me off.

 

Here is what I found when I took everything apart.

 

1st drained gas from tank, disconnected fuel line and added hose to gas can. Result was that the fuel flowed easily in both regular and reserve positions.

2nd blew out the line to pump to verify no obstruction or crap. Result gas flowed out easily (and on me).

3rd attached hose to fuel pet cock and blew air back into tank. Result was I could hear the air escaping into the tank.

4th blew air into hose after the fuel pump which goes to the carbs. Result I could hear the air gurgling fuel in the carb.

 

Here is what confuses me.

I don't remember seeing gas in the fuel filter, blew through it and air came out but filter looked dry. Now it had been sitting a week or so but that part bothered me because I would assume that there would always be gas in the filter based on the position from the tank and carb.

 

Took the pump to the bench to look at the points and to say the least they looked crappy. One side has accumulated a large deposit/ build up so that the points may have been sitting together but I assume that the contact point was the side where the build up was.

 

So like ant good tinkerer I started to fool around with them, filed the points (not easy) took them all apart (big mistake) bent the upper spring with point so now it was crooked. So now I did the research on buying the replacement point kit because after screwing with the ones on the pump. I feel I screwed them up to much to be reliable.

So here I sit telling you my tale of whoa not so you feel sorry for me but because I still don't know the actual cause of the bike dying on the highway.

Also I will tell you as I was sitting along the highway trying to get the bike started the bike just felt like it was getting no gas at all and yes I had gas in the tank.

 

so unless I get some great feed back from this group I plan on doing the following:

ordered the replacement point

install point and blow out all lines again.

hook up pump to tank and attach a hose to the output and make sure it pumps good then hook it up properly to the carbs.

large amounts of Sea Foam in the new gas

charge the battery that I ran down.

choke that mother and fire her up.

 

If it don't do as expected I may be lost for a PLAN B.

 

This is where you all come in. HELP !!!!!!

ANY further suggestions that I may not have thought of?

 

Bubber

Edited June 28, 2015 by Bubber
spelling what else

[Condor]

 

Here's a pic of the points box with the part number on it. Do a google for the number and you should get all sorts of hits. Don't pay attention to them not being listed for a Venture. They'll fit.

[Flyinfool]

Boy that was a lot of blowing you just did..........

 

If blowing into the fuel line to the carbs causes gurgling in the carbs, you may have an issue with the floats or float valves.

 

IF the carbs are full you should not be able to blow into them, the float valve should be closed.

[Bubber]

Thanks Condor That is what I ordered.

Won't get them till 7-6-15 according to the reply/receipt.

 

Bubber

[djh3]

B plan. Mr Gasket 42 pump. Solid state.

[Bubber]

Boy that was a lot of blowing you just did..........

 

If blowing into the fuel line to the carbs causes gurgling in the carbs, you may have an issue with the floats or float valves.

 

IF the carbs are full you should not be able to blow into them, the float valve should be closed.

 

 

I did it with the compressor at little spurts so not sure what that means to the carbs operation or not.

Bubber

[MikeWa]

Best of luck to you Bubber on this endeavor. I generally like to confirm the problem before disassembling the pump. I use a couple of jumper wires and see if it will pump water etc. I would replace the points either way. It's just that I would feel better if I confirmed the issue.

 

Mike

[Raider58]

Really why waste your time with those old antiquated fuel pumps. Really, a year ago my 06 fuel pump took the old proverbial dump and I orderd the facet 40171 from aircraft spruce installed the fittings that are required and from there you never have to worry about points again, all for about $60 bucks, no brainer in my mind.works a lot better than that old piece of scrap that was on it originally. Here's the specs the Mr gasket does not have all the options that the facet does.

 

These pumps measure less than 3" in any direction and weigh only 18 oz. Fuel is supplied as soon as the ignition is turned on so the engine will start faster at colder temps. Built-in pressure relief prevents flooding and assures fast re-starts on hottest days. The all-steel plated case is water tight. Mounts with two bolts. For best results, mount the pump close to the fuel tank and below the liquid level.

 

The tank is self-priming to 12" to 36" Lift min dry. Standard 12 V models require only 1 amp at max. delivery. Many models are available, but these are the ones recommended by Rutan Aircraft Factory, Stoddard Hamilton and many other aircraft designers. All of the pumps shown feature the all nylon valve and plunger as specified by Rutan Aircraft in the Canard Pusher newsletter.

 

 

• Fuel Compatibility: All models of the Facet® CUBE® Fuel Pumps are compatible with gasoline, diesel, biodiesel, blended alcohol fuels and fuel additives.
  
• Solid State Reliability: Proven on thousands of original equipment applications. No electrical contacts. No bearings or diaphragms to wear out or fatigue. Lasts four to five times longer than many other electric fuel pumps.
  
• Easy to Install: Two-bolt installation plus the small size makes installation easy. For best results, mount the pump close to the fluid or fuel tank and below the liquid level.
  
• Eliminates Vapor Lock: When properly installed on most vehicles a constant, smooth, dependable supply of fuel under pressure is assured in the hottest weather or in high altitudes.
  

Edited June 29, 2015 by Raider58

[YamahaLarry]

Really why waste your time with those old antiquated fuel pumps. Really, a year ago my 06 fuel pump took the old proverbial dump and I orderd the facet 40171 from aircraft spruce installed the fittings that are required and from there you never have to worry about points again, all for about $60 bucks, no brainer in my mind.works a lot better than that old piece of scrap that was on it originally. Here's the specs the Mr gasket does not have all the options that the facet does.

 

 

Quick question. Do either, or both, prevent gas flow to the carbs when the switch is turned off? I am considering replacing the factory one as sort of a preventive maintenance when I have it torn down for a repaint.

[Bubber]

Well here is the thing if I protest to much about my alibi then you will continue to rag on me about not coming last weekend.

So you win.

 

See you all at The Pork in the Pines.

Where I will be present because I be one of the guys helping to pull it off.

Other than that glad you all had a great time.

Bubber

[Raider58]

Yes it has the pressure relief valve and check valve to keep it from back flowing, like I said with fittings and a little common sense engineering it works better than original and will last allot longer

[djh3]

Double check on the Facet pump. I was on another fourm and a fellow said the low pressure one we need is no longer available from aircraft spruce. I am running the Mr Gasket 42 and have not had a problem with flooding.

[Condor]

OK.... I need to know?? What's wrong with replacing the points??? Everyone seems to hell bent on replacing the complete OEM that's lasted 40,000 miles, with an aftermarket unit that has to be re-plumbed. So it'll last longer?? I thought 40,000+ was pretty good performance... The points usually run around $25 and is an easy no-brainer job. The OEM pump was used for a reason. So far I don't see any benefit to building a ?? better mouse trap. Unless you just like to tinker, and can't leave anything alone....

[Raider58]

1950's technology vs. State of the art solid state technology, just saying I'd rather go with the new.

[cowpuc]

I am going wayyyyyy out on the Murphy's law limb here and know I am setting myself up for a fuel pump failure but I gotta join Condor's point of view.. I know Tweeks original pump has just under 300k on it (thats where the Murphy's law danger comes in = thin ice for sure) and I only had to do a quick change on I-90 in the 106 degree temps on one of my other 4 1st Gens (part of the adventure:big-grin-emoticon:), all of which made it well over 200k on OEM pumps,, seems like pretty good history.. I will say this though, I do generally carry a spare used pump in my Maintenance Department though.. Not really sure how much re-plumbing I would want to do on installing a new style pump cause what if that sucker did fail for some reason and I had to replumb again on the side of the road to install my extra pump.. Something to think about..

The question I have is are the newer 2nd Gen pumps known to fail a lot sooner than the 1st Gens do? If so, would the 1st Gen pumps fit the 2nd Gen's (in case one of you rascals has a pump fail and I can rescue you with a spare 1st Gen pump)?

This is a VERY informative thread, THANKS for posting it up Bubber!!

 

Bubber, when the bike stalled on you did it act like it was running out of gas - stammer a little before it shut down, or did it just quit - like turning off a light switch? If it ran out of gas it should have got boggy and powerless gradually (at least that has been my experience in the few times Tip and I have ran out of gas on Tweeks:missingtooth:). Is there any chance you may have checked fuel levels in your carbs by draining them out and seeing how much fuel they had them? I am not exactly sure how you were able to get air into the bowls if they were full as the float needles should have kept air from passing if they were raised to shut off by fuel content.. I am also not sure how they could "gurgle" on air passing into the float chambers unless they were full cause the fuel would have been well below the entrance area into the bowls (should be anyway),,,,, hmmmmm,, thats kinda strange..

Truthfully,, if it were mine,, after I got the new pump deal figured out and had good gas flow going to the carbs I think I would turn the key on and off until the pump stops clicking (should do so gradually so you can tell that the bowls are full). Then I would drain the bowls one at a time into a see thru container so you can compare fuel contents of each carb. Also look closely at the fuel from each bowl and make sure the gas is clean = no particles or water. If all looks good, I would run it up and down street a LOT just to let it re-earn my trust as you may have something else going on beside fuel pump... Dont trust it till you can trust it,,,,,,, did I say that right?

Not to open the can of worms about Orlins MD here BUT I gotta say, I wish you could have made it down there somehow cause I would have been honored to tinker on your scoot with you - I LOVE tinkering on others machines!!! Betcha Kenny would have even let us play with his Color Tune on it - wayyyyyy cool outfit - gotta get me one them fang dangled contrapations!!

Keep us informed as you fix your scoot!! It will be interesting to find out what ya find out! Personally, I hope the new pump solves everything for you brother

[bongobobny]

There is a difference in the reliability of a 1st gen pump vs a 2nd gen one!

 

Cheaper, better??? Faster...

[Raider58]

Just another thought, would you put brand new brand pads on a rotor that has 100k on it. Something to think about when your 500 miles away from home. Here's a pic of the install, 2 fittings and attached to original lines. Pretty simple.

[Condor]

1950's technology vs. State of the art solid state technology, just saying I'd rather go with the new.

 

I may be old fashion but there's something comforting about hearing that click-click when the key is turned to start.

[cowpuc]

There is a difference in the reliability of a 1st gen pump vs a 2nd gen one!

 

Cheaper, better??? Faster...

 

Just another thought, would you put brand new brand pads on a rotor that has 100k on it. Something to think about when your 500 miles away from home. Here's a pic of the install, 2 fittings and attached to original lines. Pretty simple.

 

What the heck,, if my next bike is a 2nd gen and if all this is fact I would do the swap out before the original fails and carry the original for a spare.. Never did a swap out on a 2nd Gen but - in all honesty - the 2nd Gen looks like its a lot easier to change out than a 1st Gen is too.. Kinda fishy here,, did mother Yamaha cheapen the pumps and make em easier to swap out so they could sell a few more pumps:think:

[Raider58]

I may be old fashion but there's something comforting about hearing that click-click when the key is turned to start.

 

Oh it makes a noise just quieter.

[Condor]

What the heck,, if my next bike is a 2nd gen and if all this is fact I would do the swap out before the original fails and carry the original for a spare.. Never did a swap out on a 2nd Gen but - in all honesty - the 2nd Gen looks like its a lot easier to change out than a 1st Gen is too.. Kinda fishy here,, did mother Yamaha cheapen the pumps and make em easier to swap out so they could sell a few more pumps:think:

 

That's what I've sorta done Puc. Picked up a used one off eBay and re-pointed it... :-) I wonder if those that have replumbed keep one around just in case. Unless they think it'll never fail like the TCI, or Rectifier, or Stator, or audio system???

 

Oh it makes a noise just quieter.

 

Does it hum a tune, or at least hum in key??

[ricksbike]

I think I would find and or install a new fuel filter.

[ricksbike]

I think I would find and or install a new fuel filter.

[Kirby]

Two words, bypass pump.

[cowpuc]

Hey,, wait a second here,, wait just a bald man's last hair follicle second here:big-grin-emoticon: ,,,, doesnt the 2nd Gen carry its fuel up on its back like motorcycles of yesteryear did??

Years ago I used to use Sportster tanks on chopper builds and, depending on how much flow I needed for what ever motor I was using - at times I had to add either a high flow petcock or even an extra petcock (one on each side of the tank) to obtain the correct amount of fuel to maintain fuel needs at high r's.. Wonder if anyone has ever tried to completely :stickpoke:mother Yamaha's need to sell pumps by just using gravity feed like the good old days:backinmyday:

Of course this would mean a real step back in time and having to remember to twist those petcocks closed for storage BUT,, giving modern day bikers a chance to taste real antique motorcycling may not be all that bad...

Plus,, think of how much lighter a second gen could be by no longer needing the extra weight of a pump = one step closer to keeping up with a 1st Gen, horse power to weight ratio and all that