Trying to get home from glacier national park with shifting issues.

[Cowboy]

Need some thoughts and possible solutions for a problem shifting in two third gear. On the way up to Glacier National Park from The Grand Tetons and the bike is having problems shifting into third gear. If I keep the bike in a slightly higher rev range it seems to shift fine. Down shifting is also not a problem. It is when you do not have rev'd or should I say torqued that it will not shift into third, or forth, or fifth.

Possible problems I have no Idea.

Need help. Will be trying to get it back to Ellijay, Ga. as soon as I get over the Road to the Sun.

Turned 112,500 miles this afternoon.

 

Help in ideas.

Do you think it will leave me stranded?

 

Thanks

Brian Shoemaker

[Beach Bum]

Sounds like your clutch springs are worn out. Typically when you shift from 1st to 2nd you already have enough RPM to "power shift" through but in the higher gears you don't. Try shifting without the clutch at all at higher RPMs and see if it's the same. You can replace the clutch springs and pressure plate without any special tools, just need a cover gasket (oil won't drain on the side stand). Shouldn't take more than an hour.

[sldunker]

How old is the brake fluid in the clutch master cylinder? Is it dark in colour? Old wore out fluid will cause shifting problems.

[Cowboy]

1. New Barrett Clutch Kit with All new Fiber Disc & Steel Plates put in before we left home.

2. New Clutch Fluid before we left, so the fluid is not that bad, I make it a regular habit to change.

 

Wondering about the Syncronizer and how it works, not much on transmission knowledge. Just hope I do not get stuck and have to haul the bike home.

 

Thanks

[Rick Haywood]

Sounds like your clutch springs are worn out. Typically when you shift from 1st to 2nd you already have enough RPM to "power shift" through but in the higher gears you don't. Try shifting without the clutch at all at higher RPMs and see if it's the same. You can replace the clutch springs and pressure plate without any special tools, just need a cover gasket (oil won't drain on the side stand). Shouldn't take more than an hour.

 

Never heard of this. On the 2nd gen Ventures when the clutch spring gets weak it just slips when accelerating. Never heard anyone having a problem shifting.

[Great White]

1. New Barrett Clutch Kit with All new Fiber Disc & Steel Plates put in before we left home.

2. New Clutch Fluid before we left, so the fluid is not that bad, I make it a regular habit to change.

 

Wondering about the Syncronizer and how it works, not much on transmission knowledge. Just hope I do not get stuck and have to haul the bike home.

 

Thanks

 

Like a manual trans in a car, there's actually very little in a bike transmission:

 

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTYwWDEyODA=/z/5OQAAOSwpdpVYJS2/$_57.JPG

 

That's the 2002 I just purchased.

 

Top is the middle gear and transmission gears, middle is all transmission gears and the bottom is the shift sector. Little one at the bottom is not a player. Shift forks and shafts are around the perimeter.

 

Typically, your symptoms are a result of the pins falling out of the sector, but your bike should have the new model sector (like pic above) which eliminates this problem. Could be bent pins, but that would be a one in a million shot (I would think) with the newer design.

 

After that, you're kind of down to a bent/worn shift forks or a dog engagement problem. The newer transmissions are supposed to eliminate these issues also.

 

Either way, I don't think you're going to get away without at least pulling the clutch cover off. There is the possibility that your clutch springs have either "relaxed" or the bolts have come a little loose from the miles (happens as parts wear to each other and/or go through a couple heat cycles). You could also give the interior shift linkages a look over. They're just stamped sheet metal parts and have been known to bend and cause shifting issues. If you just had the cover off, you probably know the linkage I'm talking about.

 

Lastly, Make sure your shift lever is low enough that the rotation of your ankle is sufficient to engage the gears effectively when shifting up. You'd be surprised how many guys have told me about their bikes missing up shifts and when I look at their bike the shifter is waaay to high, causing them to have to over rotate their foot and resulting in weak shifter movement. I personally like to have my shift lever pretty low so that my ankle still has lots of rotation left after the up shift is done. It allows me to do a very positive up shift if I run it right up against the shift drum and still have some force left in my ankle/foot. Comes from road racing I guess: missed shift usually means loosing a positions. Doesn't sound like your issue, but it's quick and easy to check, especially if you're in the middle of a trip...

 

Good luck and safe travels.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2015 by Great White
getting old, can't spell anymore!

[V7Goose]

Most likely cause is that your clutch fluid simply needs to be bled. You are going up in altitude and any small air bubbles left in the system will be expanding and making full disengagement of the clutch more difficult. With those miles, it is also possible you have some badly worn linkages or bushings that have introduced slop in the shift linkage that is causing some binding and preventing clean quick shifts.

 

If there is nothing else wrong with your transmission or shifting forks, the normal shift operation is extremely easy to test without even touching the clutch. Ride normally, and just before you are ready to upshift, pre-load the shifter with your foot using moderate pressure, then roll off the throttle at a normal rate to shift. As soon as the RPMs drop to the correct speed to sync with the next higher gear, the transmission will instantly fall into that gear without you having to do anything else or apply additional pressure to the shifter. Without experience with the technique, it works best on a level road with moderate speeds so that the bike maintains a steady speed during the process and the "sync window" for the engine RPM is a little longer. That is why I said to roll off the throttle at a normal rate, not just snap it shut. As soon as you feel the shift, be ready to start rolling the throttle back on to maintain speed or accelerate.

 

If this works, then your only problem is the clutch fluid or the master/slave cylinders not functioning properly. On the other hand, if the upshift is not perfectly quick and smooth as I have described, then your problem is either with the linkage or internal to the transmission.

 

If you want to swing south through New Mexico before heading back east on your way home, I'd be happy to look at it for you.

Goose

[utadventure]

If you roll through Salt Lake City on your way to NM, we can do a quick clutch fluid bleed to help keep you moving. I'm not much help on the tranny but Goose knows these bike.

 

Dave

[Cowboy]

Most likely cause is that your clutch fluid simply needs to be bled. You are going up in altitude and any small air bubbles left in the system will be expanding and making full disengagement of the clutch more difficult. With those miles, it is also possible you have some badly worn linkages or bushings that have introduced slop in the shift linkage that is causing some binding and preventing clean quick shifts.

 

If there is nothing else wrong with your transmission or shifting forks, the normal shift operation is extremely easy to test without even touching the clutch. Ride normally, and just before you are ready to upshift, pre-load the shifter with your foot using moderate pressure, then roll off the throttle at a normal rate to shift. As soon as the RPMs drop to the correct speed to sync with the next higher gear, the transmission will instantly fall into that gear without you having to do anything else or apply additional pressure to the shifter. Without experience with the technique, it works best on a level road with moderate speeds so that the bike maintains a steady speed during the process and the "sync window" for the engine RPM is a little longer. That is why I said to roll off the throttle at a normal rate, not just snap it shut. As soon as you feel the shift, be ready to start rolling the throttle back on to maintain speed or accelerate.

 

If this works, then your only problem is the clutch fluid or the master/slave cylinders not functioning properly. On the other hand, if the upshift is not perfectly quick and smooth as I have described, then your problem is either with the linkage or internal to the transmission.

 

If you want to swing south through New Mexico before heading back east on your way home, I'd be happy to look at it for you.

Goose

I think this might be the area I tackle first. I can pick-up a tube for bleeding before I go any further, Mainly concerned that I would not be hurting the bike to continue to ride. Shifted smooth all day today, However I never tried to shift without the bike being in the proper torque or RPM range as you mentioned.

Linkage does have wear issues and the way the linkage is attached with the ball joints being attached with a rivnut type bolt wear and eventually breaking I would guess.

As soon as I make it home I will order a new linkage.

Thanks for the offer to help fix and great information as always. Would like to swing back down but between this heat wave and needing to get back to the house, I had better try and ease back to Georgia.

 

Thanks again

Brian Shoemaker

[Eck]

You can shift the bike upward without using the clutch at all. When you are ready to shift to a higher gear (as in normal shifting), just let off the throttle a little bit and at same time pull up on shifter. It will / should slide right into gear easily. I used to shift like this 70% of the time when I was riding my RSV. You can feel it sliding into gear as you pull up on the shifter. It is a timing / feel thing if that makes sense. After a few times shifting like this you will get the hang of it easily. It will not hurt the trans or the clutch provided you don't "force" the shifter upward. You lightly pull up on the shifter as you let off the throttle and you will see how easily it shifts. You can also down shift this way, but since your said you can down shift using the clutch then I would.

I do this same shifting on my wing without using the clutch. It works on most any vehicle really.

[V7Goose]

I think this might be the area I tackle first. I can pick-up a tube for bleeding before I go any further, Mainly concerned that I would not be hurting the bike to continue to ride. Shifted smooth all day today, However I never tried to shift without the bike being in the proper torque or RPM range as you mentioned.

Linkage does have wear issues and the way the linkage is attached with the ball joints being attached with a rivnut type bolt wear and eventually breaking I would guess.

As soon as I make it home I will order a new linkage.

Thanks for the offer to help fix and great information as always. Would like to swing back down but between this heat wave and needing to get back to the house, I had better try and ease back to Georgia.

 

Thanks again

Brian Shoemaker

As long as you do not have any grinding or other strange noises coming from the transmission, you have absolutely no risk to continue riding the bike. Provided, of course, that you do not try to force a shift with lots of excess pressure on the shifter, which COULD bend a shift fork that might not already be damaged.

 

Shifting without touching the clutch like I described will damage nothing at all. In fact, since the clutch plates stay fully engaged, they will NEVER wear out when using that technique. Downshifts are also easily done without the clutch, but take more experience and practice. The trick for a downshift is to preload the shifter the same way, but then suddenly snap the throttle OPEN to increase the engine speed, and as soon as the transmission gears unload during the change from slowing down to acceleration, the sift will happen instantaneously, just like an upshift. With just a small amount of practice, you never have to touch the clutch at all except for starting from a dead stop.

 

One other thing to look at while on the road is slop in the shift lever itself - the hole in the lever on these bikes quickly wears out of round, which will also cause misalignment and additional wear on the rest of the linkage. If you have that problem, you can help it some by picking up a large washer at the hardware store and placing it under the shifter retaining bolt so that it presses directly on the shift lever, reducing its ability to wobble on the worn shaft. You might even need to put on TWO washers, one on either side of the shifter so that it is sandwiched between two flat surfaces. You will have to grease it up good so that it can still move with the pressure from the bolt/washer on the side of the shifter, but it will help a lot if your main issue is binding in the shift linkage. Do also try to adjust some of the slop out of the rest of the linkage - everything will help.

Goose

[yamagrl]

You'll probably make it home just fine.

Last year, as many folks here are aware, I pulled the engine out of Big Red and repaired the 2nd gear issue of the early 1st gen Mk 1"

 

Since I really didn't know "Jack" about this stuff it took me about 3 months. Whenever I do something like this I have to do extensive research. And then I typically have to do it 4 or 5 times. I take it apart, put it together. Then I take it apart and put it back to together again and again and again until I can do it in the dark and behind my back. However, most things on the bike I still can't talk intelligently about because I just don't know and I have to ask/post. And if I have anything wrong, then please, somebody offer the correct information.

 

Granted, Big Red is an '84, but there is, for this purpose, no significant difference in the 1st and 2nd gens transmissions. Gear ratios differ and the shift shaft has some differing part numbers, but I suspect that is due to the Cruiser style position for the shifter.

 

I'm in agreement with Eck and V7goose about shifting with no clutch.

 

This transmission is fully syncromesh and when functioning properly you can, without using the clutch, up-shift through all gears and down-shift through all gears, including neutral. Downshifting requires a bit of finessing the engine speed. Using the clutch during shifting is recommended and can make shifting smoother. The only thing the clutch is absolutely necessary for is to put the transmission in gear while standing still.

 

First off, make sure the shifter linkage is working correctly.

But I don't see the linkage causing the problem that you describe. The shift shaft only has to rotate about 15 degrees in order to shift from 2nd-3rd-4th and to 5th. The shift shaft extends through the engine and connects the shifter linkage to the shift sector and goes though the engine case at 2 points, one on each side of the engine case. I don't see this as wobbling and oil still remain in the crankcase. Considering that the shifter, shift shaft and shift sector movement is the same through all up-shifts from 2nd -5th, it seems like the dilemma would be present in all up-shifts and maybe downshifts as well. .

 

If the problem persists after you fix any issues with the linkage and you can rule out the linkage as the culprit then...

 

I suspect it may be internal and below I'll show you where and why.

 

First take a look at the pictures at the bottom. I purposely inserted them full size so that you don't have to enlarge them each time you need to reference them.

 

The 3rd gear dogs are tapered in order to draw the gears together. If they do not engage fully the transmission would kind of hiccup as the dogs skip. The taper on the dogs is engineered to provide a VERY positive engagement of the dogs into the slots. This is why it goes in 3rd better when torquing the engine. The torque is drawing the gears together. This taper is quite visible in the picture with the red arrows. This I think is the logical explanation.

 

First let's understand how 3rd gear works...

 

• 3rd/2nd gear pinion is rotationally fixed to the main shaft and always spins with the main shaft (input). It also slides back and forth for other engagements.
  
• 3rd gear (driven) spins freely but is laterally fixed in place on the drive axle (middle gear shaft or output)
  
• 4th gear (driven) is rotationally fixed to the drive axle(middle gear shaft or output) and slides back and forth for engaging 3rd or 1st
  

​

 

• When up-shifting the shifter rotates the shift shaft, turning the drum and the 3# shift fork tab which rides in that squiggly groove causes the #3 shift fork to move the 4th gear (driven) to the left and engages the 3rd gear dogs into the slots in the side of 3rd gear (driven). This marries 3rd gear (driven) to 4th and turns the main axle (output shaft).
  
• Viola! you are in 3rd gear!
  

 

..now, what I think is happening... the shift drum may be binding or otherwise having trouble rotating through the 3rd gear up-shift range in the groove...

 

The #3 shift fork tab is probably worn on the right side which is the thrust side of the tab while up-shifting to 3rd gear. And the squiggly groove in the shift drum is probably worn on the right side (thrust) as well. This would likely cause rough rotation of the drum at that location, resulting in insufficient lateral movement of the fork.

 

This might limit how far 4th gear (driven) is pushed to the left making it difficult to engage the dogs in to 3rd gear.

 

You can see that 4th gear (driven) does a lot of stuff. It engages 1st gear, it engages 3rd gear, it contains the groove for #3 shift fork tines and of course it is half of 4th gear.

 

The reason I think the tab is worn on the right side is because you did not mention any problem down-shifting from 3rd and no problem going into 1st. The left side of the tab and groove has the thrust while engaging 1st and disengaging 3rd. The #3 fork is likely bent from the stress as well.

 

Do you have any problem coming out of first at all? Maybe a bit stiff? How does 4th and 5th function?

If you are running a low viscosity oil such as a synthetic, you might try 20-50. In single sump engines the oil lubes the transmission and clutch and since neither are ultra-close tolerance. The heavier dino oil will probably afford a bit of buffer to the drum and forks and maybe smooth out the shifting a little. Most transmission issues are not related to the actual gears, but to the engagement of those gears. All the other stuff in there.

 

 

I'm not on the site all the time and I may not be on much this week. PM or call if you need an answer and don't hear back. My contact info is on my profile.

 

Good luck.

 

 

[Cowboy]

Looks like things are fixed after I Bleed the clutch last night. Did not see air bubbles but it is hard to see.

I drove over the Road to the Son today and over to Many Glaciers then back to West Glacier without the trailer and all the luggage.

The bike shifted in any gear with any RPM's , should make it home with no more issues.

 

Thanks to all for the input!

Eck I have always shifted the bike as you mentioned or at least 65% of the time.

 

Thanks again

[cowpuc]

Hey Cowboy, just pulled in ourselves here and noticed your post.. OUTSTANDING that you got er up and going again!! Lots and lots of great advice in this thread and, even though its irrelevant now that you are back at it, would still like to add that I too have ran into "tight" shifting issues (even though I am also one that does not use his clutch a lot). I found thru the years of riding hot climates (especially desert regions where the tarmac can actually melt your tenner shoes) that loss of oil viscosity can also cause similar issues, as can "boiling" brake fluids associated with the clutch (HAD to ride many miles out there with no clutch due to this).. 15/40 Rotella and the like can almost turn to water in some of that type of heat. A good 20/50 will usually bring back some smoothness on those gear racks and, I have even added Lucas Oil Treatment (couple ounces) at times to assist... Thought might add my 2 pennies in case someone else may forget to move to heavier oil in the heat..

Glad you back in business Cowboy - WOULD LOVE TO BUMP INTO YOU FOLKS AGAIN ON THE TRAIL!!

Ride safe my friend!

Puc

[RedRider]

What a great example of knowledge transfer among the members. Great guidance by Eck and Goose. And a fantastic write up by Yamagrl. Very clear and important pictures from Great White.

 

It's Sunday and I try not to learn anything. But I did.

 

Glad it worked out Cowboy. Have a safe ride home.

 

RR

[videoarizona]

I learned to! Went off and tried shifting without clutch on 1st Gen. Worked like a charm!