Cleaning and Bleeding Brakes

[camos]

A little while ago I experienced a low MPG rate and it was suggested to me that my brakes might be dragging. So, today I cleaned the pistons and then bled the brakes. While doing this job I recalled that some, if not many guys on here have had difficulty in accomplishing this simple task. Since it should take only five or ten minutes per bleeder, it has always baffled me how bleeding the brakes on these bikes can be so difficult. Anyway, for what it is worth, I took some pix of how I go about doing it. No Speed Bleeders or Vac Pumps required.

 

Here are the tools required:

DOT 3 or 4 brake fluid

A waste container - I use a tequila bottle but there may be better choices available.

Funnel that fits into rear MC opening.

Toweling to protect against drippage.

Bungee to secure waste container when bleeding the valve at the steering head.

Needle nose pliers - to clamp hose when removing.

Phillips screwdriver - to remove the top cover and the right MC reservoir lid.

14 mm wrench or socket - to remove rear reservoir filler cap.

8 mm wrench - to loosen bleed valve.

24 - 36 inches 3/16 ID plastic hose - thick wall fits over the bleeder tightly while thin wall fits but is too easy to pull off. The thin wall hose that comes with a battery acid pack will work OK but is only 20 inches so it is perhaps a bit more difficult to support the waste container at the correct height. My hose is 25 inches so it is also necessary to use a brick to lift the waste container.

 

There is only one thing that makes this method work so well and that is the hose must go up from the bleed valve before looping down into the container. This creates a fluid lock head which prevents air from getting back into the bleed valve as the brake is pumped. For this head lock to be effective the hose must not leak at the valve and the head must be long enough so when the brake is released and fluid is drawn back into the system no air can reach the valve. With a few quick pumps to begin the head will fill up and waste fluid will begin to make its way into the container. If the hose end in the container is below the fluid level there will also be a fluid lock that prevents the fluid in the hose from draining and allowing air back into the hose. This part, however, is not very important as it is the fluid head up from the valve that must not be broken.

 

Now all that is required is to pump the brake to force out old fluid and with it any trapped air. Be sure the reservoir is never depleted enough to let air in at the MC. There is no need to tighten the bleeder valve between pumps because no air can get to the valve. Since the system is not under pressure there will be no air locks that can keep air in the system and the air will flow easily into the container along with the waste fluid. Once all air is removed from the system, close the bleed valve and using needle nose pliers clamp the hose near the valve and remove the hose.

 

 

 

Finally got around to properly addressing the cleaning part of this thread.

 

Initially my method for cleaning the pistons involved constraining three pistons and pushing the one free piston most of the way out using the brake lever/pedal then polishing it with a Scotch green scrubby and then pushing the piston back in. This kinda worked but did not allow cleaning around the seals so really, it was only half clean. I was a bit apprehensive of popping the piston all the way out because I didn't know what would happen or whether there were any parts that would fly off to hide somewhere in my shop. Turned out that there was absolutely nothing to worry about on that point.

 

The tools used:

 

 

Made two clamps a while ago to hold down two pistons on one side.

Old toothbrush with head re-positioned for cleaning the piston hole.

Used 2 - 2" C-clamps in total.

 

 

My little old Craftsman compressor

 

For the first of 3 calipers I removed the left front caliper from the bike and put a can under the hose end to catch the drips.

 

After removing the caliper I used one of the clamps I had built to hold the two pistons on one side and a small C-clamp to hold one of the pistons on the other side. That left one piston free to be blown out using a small compressor stuffed into the brake line port. This worked well enough even though several of the pistons were quite stuck and required 170 lbs pressure to get them out and my compressor only had 175 lbs available.

 

 

This is a pic of the caliper with one piston removed, not showing the C-clamp.

 

 

This is a close-up pic of the piston showing it half cleaned. The external part of all the pistons were really cruddy looking but cleaned up nicely.

 

It took about 2 1/2 hours to clean the caliper pistons and reassemble them. Brake Clean and the bent toothbrush was used to clean around the o-rings. There was quite a bit of crud in the cracks on either side of the o-rings.

 

The hardest part was reinserting the pistons because with the clearance being so tight the piston had to be almost perfectly square to the bore or it would jam. It helps to lubricate the bores and pistons with brake fluid when reassembling.

 

Once put back together and mounted on the bike it took 13 minutes to bleed the caliper.

 

The rear caliper was next and the whole job took a little longer because of the difficulty of getting at it behind the saddlebag. It was necessary to remove the hold down bolts so the saddlebag could be moved a little to allow room to get a ratchet onto the caliper bolts. Otherwise, the procedure was the same as for doing the front caliper. I didn't actually time how long it took to bleed the rear caliper but it was about the same as the front one.

Edited January 16, 2018 by camos
Updating with more info.

[Ethier3]

Thanks for all the good posts on brake bleeding that I found on this Venture Rider forum.

This is my first post and I’m not sure if this thread is the best one for what I want to bring up. But it’s about Brake Bleeding, so I’m throwing it here.

Many have reported having no problem or, oppositely, lots of problems bleeding the Royal Star brakes. I have an explanation to this unpredictable behavior and suggestions to avoid it.

I personally had a hard time bleeding the rear brake of my Yamaha Royal Star Tour Deluxe (RSTD 2005) home-made 2 Front-Wheels trike. My trike uses the original motorcycle parts for the rear brake, except for the rear disc being of a different diameter, which makes no difference for bleeding compared to regular RSTDs or Ventures of the same generation.

I modeled the original rear master-cylinder on a CAD system to get a clearer picture:

 

 

Figure A shows a ‘perspective’ cutaway view of this rear master-cylinder (excluding the piston) so you may recognise it better.

Figure B shows the same cutaway view enlarged to better see the inside. The right is towards the motorcycle front. And the inside piston is still not being shown for clarity.

Figure C shows further enlarged and in Magenta-Pink, the maximum volume pushed by a full piston stroke.

 

In normal usage, brake oil comes down the black-elbowed tube on top. When the rear pedal pushes towards the rear or the left, it is this maximum Magenta-Pink volume that will go towards the rear or the left, to the rear caliper.

The problem that I found out is that there is a fitting (green on the left of Figure B), that only has a small axial hole. So if you dismantled the master-cylinder or removed this fitting for any reason, there will be an air pocket (Orange-Brown color) trapped in the master-cylinder.

This air pocket is small (0,5cc), but this maximum volume of oil pushed also is small (1,7cc), because of the small 1/2 inch diameter MC piston. This air pocket is thus about 1/3 of this maximum oil volume pushed. So this tiny air pocket is in fact ‘huge’. So when pushing on the rear pedal, you will compress this air pocket, and you will definitely feel a rear-pedal sponginess.

What may account for the apparent unpredictable behavior of brakes being easy or hard to bleed, might simply be that some may have or may not have dismantled the master-cylinder fully. So they may or may not have left this air pocket in the brake system. Also, some mechanics simply are careful with such issues and know the trick of leaning the master-cylinder while bleeding (explained below). I was surprised that my mountain bicycle mechanic knew that trick.

Once the air pocket problem is known, many solutions exist:

 

• When manufactured, the Yamaha people might have used a powerful vacuum source to extract from the rear caliper, as much air as possible while ‘pulling’ the oil from the rear master cylinder reservoir to this rear caliper. But not everyone has such a powerful vacuum source and a Mityvac hand pump may not be able to extract enough air. Mine could not do the job.
  
• Also, you can simply unscrew the green fitting (on the left of Figure B) to let some air out while pumping the rear pedal, as in a ‘normal’ bleeding procedure. This may still leave a little air (0,06cc) 3% of max volume pushed (The top of the Orange-Brown color air pocket).
  
• Or better as I did: Dismount the master-cylinder to have the left (or rear) end up, while you push the piston to push the trapped air up and out along the brake line. Obviously, you must then continue bleeding your rear caliper to get this air out.
  
• Sometimes, peculiar ideas can bring up unexpected solutions, so I will add that if you don’t want to dismount your rear MC, you could also hang your motorcycle by the rear in order to get the rear master-cylinder straight-up. If you ever try this, make sure you do it safely.
  

Once this air pocket was eliminated: Tadam! It was a pure beauty to feel the rear pedal becoming hard again as originally.

I have not dismantled my handlebar front master cylinders, so I don’t know if a similar entrapped air problem could also happen. One sure thing, the handlebar MCs are easy to dismount from the handlebar, in order to turn around in any direction, and bleed the front brake and clutch systems.

Please note that Reverse-Brake-Bleeding or Speed-Bleeders can be helpful, but you can understand that they would have not helped me with the problem described above.

Also please note that in order to make my trike, I used the following parts of my Yamaha Royal Star Tour Deluxe (RSTD 2005): The original rear brake system Pedal-MC-Caliper, except for the rear brake disc. The engine. The handlebar with clutch and front brake master cylinders. The electric wiring with front and rear flashers. The rear suspension shock. The saddlebags.

So all the remaining parts are still nearly new at 3159 km (1963 miles) and are available as a whole: Chassis, front fork, axle, wheel, tire, brake discs, calipers and front headlight. Rear suspension, axle, wheel, tire, brake disc. RSTD gas tank and fairings. They are available as a whole for whatever fair price you may offer.

 

Pierre Ethier Eng., Quebec City, Quebec

Edited May 8, 2016 by Ethier3
The picture did not appear.

[Freebird]

Very good post. Excellent information and pictures. Thanks so much.

[camos]

@Ethier3

 

Great pix that really help to clarify a possible area of difficulty.

 

I wonder if the zero pressure method I used here to bleed the brakes might be beneficial in reducing the formation of the air pocket you have displayed. What I'm thinking is when using a rapid plunging motion to flush oil through it might get up into the cavity you have defined and force some of the air out towards the caliper. With zero pressure there is nothing preventing the air from moving along with the oil.

 

The method many seem to use is to pump up pressure before opening the bleeder. Any air in the cavity would be compressed and pretty much prevented from making its way to the exit hose until pressure is relieved. Unfortunately, when pressure is relieved, the bleeder is immediately closed to prevent air from being drawn back in on the return stroke. Kind of like a self-defeating Catch 22.

 

Of course, the other possibility is that there was no air trapped in the master cylinder on the 3 bikes I have successfully used my bleeding method.

[Ethier3]

Hello!

Reality always has the last word over theory. So if you’ve observed that the air was bled by this Zero Pressure Method, then the theory must be corrected or, at least, more thought has to be put into the way the observations are made and the way the theory is applied.

Now if the master cylinder piston pushes really fast on the oil, does it have a chance to carry along the air with it and thus bleed the brake?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looking at Figure D above, the piston at black line (1) may go as fast as it wants to position (2), but there is no way the air in (3) will be carried along, or pulled along by friction, towards the calipers to be bled.

 

This said, you could have a bump along the brake line such as on Figure E below:

 

If oil is pushed in this brake line by the piston from the right towards the left, along the red arrow against an air pocket, there will be some surface tension at point (4), at the oil-air intersection. Since brake tube diameters are small (about 1/16 inch – 1,6 mm), the viscous oil will not be able to go under the air along the tube. This surface tension will make the oil act itself as a piston pushing the air towards the left. So no air pocket will be left in the tube, when you pump the rear brake pedal. It’s easier to imagine grease being pushed from the right along the red arrow, it becomes obvious that this viscous grease will push all the air out towards the left.

Now could the oil in Figure D act as grease and push all the air (3) out, I doubt it although a little bit of oil could stick on the inner walls due to viscosity and replace a little bit of the air pocket. My experience with my 3-Wheeler rear brake is that it did not remove the air, even though I really tried hard pressing a lot of times on the rear brake pedal. And it’s when I unscrewed the green fitting that I was able to bleed this air out and get a beautiful hard pedal as I had originally.

 

This also said, it’s obvious that if you have a ‘powerful’ vacuum source, you both remove the air and replace it with oil: The atmospheric air pressure acts on the oil top surface in the master-cylinder reservoir, and pushes oil inside the system to fill this vacuum. If your vacuum source generates an ‘Interstellar Vacuum’ (as between Eart and Mars), no doubt the air pocket (3) will be reduced to nearly nothing, and be replaced by the oil ‘sucked’ from the master-cylinder reservoir. So then pumping the brake pedal will help, but it may not even be needed. My Mityvac could not create such a vacuum.

Pierre Ethier

[bongobobny]

RE: Figure E. And THAT, sir, is EXACTLY why Yamaha put the bleeder on the line going from the rear to the front at the steering neck on the MK2...

[Yammer Dan]

NOt a problem at all til you have that one.......

[Ethier3]

Hello!

Reality still always has the last word over theory. I don't know how this "line going from the rear to the front at the steering neck on the MK2" is installed and why the top bleeder is needed. Could it be that (a) the rear MC has to 'feed' two calipers - the rear one and one of the front ones - which would be at the limit of its 'one stroke volume' capacity, (b) or there's a fitting joining two steel tubes somewhere along the line, with consequent small air pocket similar to (3) in Figure D above, © or the tube line diameter changes along the line not due to steel tube changes, but due to an inserted fitting, which does not permit surface tension to act as a piston as shown at (4) of Figure E above, (d) the line going from the rear to the front goes higher than the rear master-cyclinder reservoir, which impairs MC refilling by the reservoir when releasing the rear brake pedal, (e) or as they say, all of the preceding answers intermixed to some degree?

One sure thing, my trike has a 3 inch high loop such as Figure E above, going from the rear MC to the rear caliper, and I was able to get a solid pedal feel, which means all the air was kicked out. Also, I had first installed a 'T' with a line going from the rear to part of the front, but I was never able to get a solid rear brake pedal feel. The 1/2 inch diameter MC piston was never able to feed enough oil volume per one full stroke, for my rear and front caliper pistons.

Pierre Ethier near Quebec City, QC

Edited May 16, 2016 by Ethier3

[camos]

I'm not sure what your theory is but the reality is that there is friction at the boundary layer between two fluids. As brake fluid flows past the air pocket the air will be pulled into the flow. This is known as the venturi effect. Under pressure the air will become denser and therefore be more difficult to be drawn into the flow. Under zero pressure more air will be pulled with the flow. As the volume of air at the restriction is reduced cavitation will be created which will fracture the adhesion of the air in the pocket which will result in more air being captured by the flow. These conditions will lead to virtually all the air being expunged from the line.

 

That is the reality that needs to be applied to your theory.

[camos]

I don't know how this "line going from the rear to the front at the steering neck on the MK2" is installed and why the top bleeder is needed.

The top bleeder is necessary to allow a larger volume of air to be removed from that point. Without removing enough air to reduce the size of the air pocket, an air-lock situation is created that will effectively prevent the small volume of oil flow and the low friction coefficient to overcome the force of gravity to draw enough volume of air out of the bleeder at the caliper.

 

A vacuum pump will allow more flow at a greater rate that will effectively capture more air and allow the system to be cleared of trapped air. Without the bleeder at the head bearing it had proven to be very difficult to remove a large air pocket trapped at that point. By adding the top bleeder Yamaha provided a simple solution to reduce the amount of air potentially trapped at the high point and therefore make bleeding easy enough so that a vacuum pump was no longer needed to clear the system of trapped air.

[Old Man Zzzz]

Ok, so some of this makes sense, but is confusing as well, I have an 83 VR, and just did a Rear MC rebuild, I now have some brake, (soft), but not satisfied.

I just looked for a bleeder valve in the steering head area and didn't see one. But I did notice that the front left caliper shares a hose with the front left fork, is that to be included in the bleed process? Should I use that one vs the caliper, as it sits more vertical? I have a vacuum bleeder, first time using it, and went thru a whole can of brake fluid.

Still going to have to scrub my garage floor ....

[camos]

The left front caliper is part of the combined system with the rear brake. The procedure is to first bleed the rear caliper and then do the left front caliper. Both are fed from the MC at the foot pedal.

 

MkI's from 83 to 85 do not have the bleeder valve at the head, just the MkII's have it. I have never had to deal with that situation but would think that a steady flow provided by pumping the brake pedal should be able to carry any air from the head area down to the front caliper. Starting with a really full MC there should be enough fluid to flush the brake line. The problem with air collecting in the head area is that when pumping stops any air that has not been flushed will begin to rise back toward the head. Stopping the pumping to refill the MC should be done as quickly as possible or have someone refill it so pumping does not have to be suspended. As long as the vent hose has a fluid lock there is no chance for air to be drawn in through the bleeder.

 

I have never had the need to use a vacuum pump so I can't give any advice on using one. These are very small systems so pumping fluid through them probably happens quite quickly so it might be very easy to empty the MC and draw air in resulting in the need to to start over again.

[Old Man Zzzz]

Clive, thanks, pretty much did all what you suggested, kept the reservoir full during the process, so will go at it again this morning. Got another bottle of dot3.

The part I was talking about on the front left side is I believe the anti dive unit, its bleeder sets higher then the caliper, and appears to draw off the front caliper for fluid, so will try bleeding thru that for the front brake.

Steve

[bongobobny]

Yup you are correct! The MK1 has hydraulic anti dives and they are driven by the front brake caliper. No bleeder on the hydraulic line from the proportioning valve to the front caliper...

[cowpuc]

Ok, so some of this makes sense, but is confusing as well, I have an 83 VR, and just did a Rear MC rebuild, I now have some brake, (soft), but not satisfied.

I just looked for a bleeder valve in the steering head area and didn't see one. But I did notice that the front left caliper shares a hose with the front left fork, is that to be included in the bleed process? Should I use that one vs the caliper, as it sits more vertical? I have a vacuum bleeder, first time using it, and went thru a whole can of brake fluid.

Still going to have to scrub my garage floor ....

 

Clive, thanks, pretty much did all what you suggested, kept the reservoir full during the process, so will go at it again this morning. Got another bottle of dot3.

The part I was talking about on the front left side is I believe the anti dive unit, its bleeder sets higher then the caliper, and appears to draw off the front caliper for fluid, so will try bleeding thru that for the front brake.

Steve

 

@Old_Man_Zzzz, I have found relief from the issue you are referring to by bleeding from the flare nut on the left side of the metering valve in the linked brake system on the 83's. If you look above the radiator (above the rad cap - left side of the bike if you are facing the front of the bike) you will see the metering valve attached to the neck - right above the coil.. The flare nut you will need to loosen will be on the left of the valve and easily accessable. Lay a rag over the coil, loosen the flare nut, gently push down on the rear brake peddle, tighten up flare when peddle gets close to bottom.. That line is the high point in the system and air likes to get caught there.. Give it a shot - best of luck!!

[Old Man Zzzz]

Cowpuc,

Thanks for the tip, found the nut, and valve, but so did the previous owner, as the nut is now a vise grip nut. Going to have to remove the fairing to get a good grip on it. Tried small v grips but couldn't get the leverage. And its stuck hard....I might get to ride this summer.... Only home 2 days a week..

 

Now just need to find part number for that tube...

[Old Man Zzzz]

Cowpuc,

Thanks for the tip, found the nut, and valve, but so did the previous owner, as the nut is now a vise grip nut. Going to have to remove the fairing to get a good grip on it. Tried small v grips but couldn't get the leverage. And its stuck hard....I might get to ride this summer.... Only home 2 days a week..

 

Now just need to find part number for that tube...

 

Ok, for an update, if the vise grip is to small, get a bigger one. Finally got the fitting loose, (perseverance), bled it several times and now I have brakes.....: happy65:

[cowpuc]

Ok, for an update, if the vise grip is to small, get a bigger one. Finally got the fitting loose, (perseverance), bled it several times and now I have brakes.....: happy65:

 

OUTSTANDING = GOOD 4 YOU BROTHER!!

 

Got your message on the dust cover - just to be sure, we are talking about the little plastic cover that snaps over the brake pads - right?... You need anything else?

[Old Man Zzzz]

OUTSTANDING = GOOD 4 YOU BROTHER!!

 

Got your message on the dust cover - just to be sure, we are talking about the little plastic cover that snaps over the brake pads - right?... You need anything else?

 

Yes, the that snaps over the top of the pads.

 

Yes looking for that tube now that goes up to the metering valve, don't want to rely on V Grips forever.

 

Troubleshooting the Class system now, that's the last issue I have with the bike..,. for now.

 

Thanks...Steve

[camos]

@Old_Man_Zzzz, I have found relief from the issue you are referring to by bleeding from the flare nut on the left side of the metering valve in the linked brake system on the 83's.

Would it be useful to add a bleeder valve at this point? Never having seen this setup I'm just making a guess. It should not be very difficult to put in a flare to pipe T-adapter then run a hose to a bleeder valve mounted in an easily accessible area.

[cowpuc]

Would it be useful to add a bleeder valve at this point? Never having seen this setup I'm just making a guess. It should not be very difficult to put in a flare to pipe T-adapter then run a hose to a bleeder valve mounted in an easily accessible area.

 

Sorta like they did on the later models by putting a bleeder up on the neck? Good idea Camos!! Personally I have had very good results with just loosening the flare that Zzzz worked with,, its really not in that bad of a location if you know where to look. Slip a brake line wrench (box end with the notch opening in it) over the line - crack the flare - reach over and push down on the pedal - tighten the flare,, you know the routine... BUT - if your in a situation like Zzzz is in,, yea,, I could definitely see where being able to replace an exposed bleeder if it were tweeked like the flare on Zzzz's bike would be a HUGE advantage because replacing the line we are talking about is a bugger - runs from the metering valve on the neck - down the right frame spar to the rear master.... I am also not real sure if a dead end street "T'd" into a line that the fluid is running in would capture little air bubbles as they passed by - dont know.. It's a good suggestion though,, definitely worthy of experimentation IMHO..

Zzzz,, I did a little digging for you and it appears that tube is obsolete.. I will see what I can do on my end.. Wondering if an Auto parts store could match the flare and just replace the thing with brake line,, just a thought... Thinking the area is to tight to just cut the end of the line - remove the nut - put a new one on and reflare the tubing.. Just about enough room in there to get a wrench on and thats it... Stick with us,, we'll get ya up and going..

[Old Man Zzzz]

Thanks Puck,

Yes, it is really easy to access once you know where to look, and the nut is not rounded off. And just 3 cycles got rid of the air.

Just checked, still got brakes, so the MC rebuild is working well.

 

Been researching Ebay, found a couple of used tubes, waiting for response from sellers to make sure the nut is not rounded off.

 

Been studying the Class system in the Service manual, and the posts here, trying to plan a procedure for troubleshooting the system.

I'm getting an Error 4, which by all accounts says I need to break down the controller and reflow the solder joints.

Pulled the cover of the system on the rear fender, all looks well, is there any tests I can do without the controller plugged in, that will confirm the compressor and

Solenoids are working?

 

 

So with all things said the bike is about ready, and I should be riding in a couple of weeks. Its only got 26K on it, and I've been fixing cracked fairing mounts, rubber bushings,

other cosmetics, motor purr's, so happy with the purchase so far.

[cowpuc]

WOW ZZZZZZZZZZZzzz WOW WOW WOW - she's a DANDY Zzzz :thumbsup::dancefool::dancefool:

 

I am sorta,,, ok,, more than sorta,,,, more like truly IN LOVE with the MK1's and that bike of yours gives me the coveting fever

 

That cover and brake line should be on its way soon, gotta run Tippy - my partner in grime - to the Hospital for some tests and will drop em off at the Post Office on the way thru..

[Patmac6075]

I recently did my entire brake hydraulic system ('84 VR). Is the "nut" you're talking about the banjo bolt? If so you can just replace the banjo bolt (and of course the crush washers).

i also found a guy in Michigan who made stainless steel brake lines for about $30 apiece. If you're already in this deep.....well, that's what always gets me in trouble....as long as I'm doing this work...may as well go all the way

[cowpuc]

Thanks Puck,

Yes, it is really easy to access once you know where to look, and the nut is not rounded off. And just 3 cycles got rid of the air.

Just checked, still got brakes, so the MC rebuild is working well.

 

Been researching Ebay, found a couple of used tubes, waiting for response from sellers to make sure the nut is not rounded off.

 

Been studying the Class system in the Service manual, and the posts here, trying to plan a procedure for troubleshooting the system.

I'm getting an Error 4, which by all accounts says I need to break down the controller and reflow the solder joints.

Pulled the cover of the system on the rear fender, all looks well, is there any tests I can do without the controller plugged in, that will confirm the compressor and

Solenoids are working?

 

 

So with all things said the bike is about ready, and I should be riding in a couple of weeks. Its only got 26K on it, and I've been fixing cracked fairing mounts, rubber bushings,

other cosmetics, motor purr's, so happy with the purchase so far.

 

Hey Zzzz, your parts are on the way brother... Had to ship em in a USPS Priority tube because of the pre bends in the brake line - you should see them by next Tuesday...

To pay for all this I would prefer that you just make a donation to the great cause that @DragonRider and others here serve by contributing a few bucks to the VR St. Judes Childrens Hospital fund (put in Fozzies/Dragon Riders - own words - do it for the Kids).. FYI - He (Dragon Rider) is running an auction right now for this great cause and it can be found here = http://www.venturerider.org/forum/photopost/showcat.php?cat=27 --- a really fun way to donate.. If money's tight like it gets sometimes,, just do the pay it forward thing - help someone along lifes way when you can...

The parts aren't new but I hope you find them usable..

Puc

 

PS - I think I am going to bid on the Audio System in the St. Judes auction,, be kind of cool if you bid against me on it - sorta be like me bidding against myself - in a round about way