Compeled To Talk About the Second Gen. Braking System!

[skydoc_17]

In light of the event that happened to Yammer Dan, my dear friend on his way to Don's Maintenance Day this last week, I wanted to point out a few things about the Second Gen. Motorcycle that EVERY Second Gen. owner should take into consideration.

For many of us, we started riding at a pretty early age, on more "primitive", traditional style motorcycles.

Because of children, family or work, we stopped riding for a number of years, and then resumed riding in our later lives. The bikes we rode in the 60's, 70's and 80's may have had only a single front disc brake, and most likely had a drum rear brake. The chances of "locking up" the brakes on a Honda 750 were pretty much nil on dry pavement unless you stood on the rear brake foot pedal. Now, fast forward to the year 1999, and we now are riding an 800 pound, 4 cylinder touring motorcycle with a 4 piston rear disc brake caliper, and a rotor that is roughly 15" in diameter! This is more braking power than your car has per wheel! Plus add the combination of forward controls, and a rear brake pedal that is over a foot long, and what you have is a disaster waiting to happen. Now, under "normal" conditions, coming to a stop is a no brainer. You ease down on the rear brake, apply the front brake lever, and the bike slows down until it stops. No problem. Let us now consider what happens in a "panic stop" situation. You jam on the rear brake, you grab a handful of front brake, your weight and the weight of the motorcycle move forward and the next thing you know, the rear brake has locked up, the rear tire is sliding out, the front brakes finally lock up, and you are high sided off of your bike and thru the air, or you skid out, and your bike, (and you) go sliding down the highway. Not a pretty sight to see, I assure you.

After wrenching on motorcycles for over 45 years, and installing numerous performance upgrades on motorcycles here is what I have found that helps cure the rear brake lock up on the Second Gen. motorcycles.

Installing the KEVLAR (Aramid Fiber) rear brake pads on the Second Gen. bikes makes it almost impossible to lock up the rear brakes. Installing the 4 piston, PROGRESSIVE ENGAGEMENT, R1/R6 calipers on the front of the Second Gen. bikes allows you to depend on the front brakes much more than the 2 piston, slider type front brake calipers that come stock on these bikes. And finally, a good set of Stainless Steel Brake Lines. These lines sets allow for even brake force to be applied to the calipers without any "pulsing", and all of the brake force ends up at the caliper, NOT ballooning the stock rubber lines.

Now, some people may be thinking that this is a shameless plug for products that I may have offered in the Classifieds in the past for the Second Gen. Motorcycles, BUT FRANKLY, at this point, I don't want to see another VR.ORG member go down because of this ongoing issue with the rear brakes on the Second Gens. so I'm saying I don't CARE where you purchase the KEVLAR brake pads, the R1/R6 calipers or the S.S. brake line sets from, as long as you are PROACTIVELY trying to make your bike safer to ride this summer.

Because the average age of the riders on this forum is in the 50+ range, and speaking personally, if I were to go down HARD, and even if I came thru the accident with minor injuries, an accident like that could put an end to my riding career. I am asking everyone to take a good close look at your braking equipment on your motorcycle. Have you flushed your brake fluid in the last year? Do your front sliders on your calipers function properly? Are your brake pads down to the backing plates? Tire inflation correct? Plenty of tread left on those tires? PLEASE don't be the next victim of poor maintenance of your motorcycle, and don't be afraid to upgrade your bike's braking system, after all, your brakes are the only thing that will stop you once you get going!

My thoughts, for what they are worth.

(Damn Glad you're OK Yammer!)

Earl

Edited June 6, 2015 by skydoc_17
CRAYON BROKE!

[cowpuc]

Well put Earl:clap2:, THANK YOU!!

[M61A1MECH]

 

Had exactly that happen to me on my 98 Royal Star Tour Classic, back in 1999, guy stopped in front of me, I only had 3000 miles under my belt on this new bike, after coming off a 750 Virago (drum brake on he rear).Panic braking resulted in a locked up the rear wheel, now all I have is a rudder and for the life of me I cannot get it spinning again. Got stopped before I hit him, struggling to keep the bike from laying down and BAM the car behind us hits us. My wife still suffers from those injuries.

So yes the rear brakes on all Royal Stars are very sensitive to locking up.

 

Sky Doc is right on the money here.

[friesman]

Earl, I do appreciate you thinking of us and think we all can use the info you shared with us about the rear brakes. I will be ordering a set from you next payday.

 

I was also wondering if anyone is doing anything about supplying the proportioning valve that a few of you put into your G2 Ventures a few years ago. That might be a good solution too, but I don't think anyone is doing anything about it anymore. Here a link with some info about it. http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?13098-Brake-Proportioning-Valve-The-Butler-Mod

 

Thanks,

Brian

[Bummer]

I was also wondering if anyone is doing anything about supplying the proportioning valve that a few of you put into your G2 Ventures a few years ago. That might be a good solution too, but I don't think anyone is doing anything about it anymore. Here a link with some info about it. http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?13098-Brake-Proportioning-Valve-The-Butler-Mod

 

I think a flow control valve is a less good idea than less grippy pads.

 

Consider: the flow control valve is like an adjustable hole added to the brake line. That hole always restricts flow, even when you're only mashing the pedal a little bit. That will slow the onset of braking without actually preventing over braking. Sooner or later the fluid will get through the hole if you keep mashing on the pedal.

 

By comparison the less grippy pads without the restriction will activate immediately during moderate braking without overdoing it later on.

 

I have Blue Dots on the front with stainless lines and the V-Max splitter. In fact I have two sets of Blue Dots. One set for on the bike, and one as backup, because everything needs rebuilt eventually, and it's just not a good idea to let the ship sink while you rebuild the thing that will save you. I haven't added the kevlar pads, but I will.

[Yammer Dan]

Earl I will get to this one when I'm able to sit up and key a little better. I know I locked the rear up. No big deal Iwas going in a nice straight line when it went to hell. Shoud have had more feel for it than I did. As I said later I'm not feeling so good. I really don't know what happened.

[slowrollwv]

Earl what you have said here is spot on. I like the recommendations that you mentioned and will be doing the up grades as soon as possible. Thank you.

[Triple J]

I've been riding for better than 40 years and can honestly say I've never grabbed for the front brake in a emergency situation.

 

I was also taught to basically not use the front brake (right or wrong) this is what works for me. About the only time I use the front is at a stop on uneven surface where I like both of my feet down.

[The Tooch]

I've been riding for better than 40 years and can honestly say I've never grabbed for the front brake in a emergency situation.

 

I was also taught to basically not use the front brake (right or wrong) this is what works for me. About the only time I use the front is at a stop on uneven surface where I like both of my feet down.

 

I'm not sure how to respond to this? I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.....

 

Like you said, I guess, it works for you.

 

(Against all the laws of physics of course!) Your sure stretching out your stopping distances not using the front brake.

[Great White]

Proper use of the brakes on a motorcycle involves using both front and rear brakes. Thats why they can up with the "linked braking" concept in the first place.

 

Problem is, most guys just mash the rear brake. It needs to be modulated while the front brakes are also applied.

 

Thing is, the average rider doesn't have these skills. It takes instruction and then practic (and lots of it). You would think something a simple as braking would be something that would be easy, but its actually a very advanced skill on a vehicle with separate front and rear systems and it takes a deft touch.

 

Again, why they came up with "linked braking" in the first place.

 

Same reasoning for abs on 4 wheeled vehicles. Too many scoocer moms driving cattle haulers and not enough actual drivers out there....

[Flyinfool]

There was someone making a device that I think replaced the bleeder. What it amounted to was a calibrated air bubble in the brakes to reduce the maximum possible brake pressure. Whether it actually works, I have no clue. But it may be of help in this situation.

 

I am not sure if Bosch is marketing this to manufacturers or aftermarket.

http://www.bosch-motorcycle.com/en/de/fahrsicherheit_fuer_zweiraeder/sicherheitssysteme_fuer_zweiraeder/abs_9m_enhanced/ABS_9_enhanced.html

Edited June 7, 2015 by Flyinfool

[XV1100SE]

Great post Earl !

[cowpuc]

Actually, I use the front brake A LOT more than the rear (probably 85/15 percent) for stopping, may come from years of dirt biking - tenderly (usually one finger) on the front brake lever - like using a good set of micrometers. Normally that is all I use, and use the rear brake mainly for slow speed riding control - amazing how slow you can go by working your clutch against your rear brake.. I always loved doing stoppies (kind of a reverse wheelie) on my dirtbikes.. Probably wayyyyy out there in left field but it seems to me like that front wheel is where the most effective stopping power is at BUT - ya gotta watch pavement surfaces pretty close and use tenderness in application when on questionable surfaces - no one likes to face plant from a front end washing out.. Probably means nothing and not applicable to bikes but I noticed long ago when doing brake jobs on cars for a living that most car brakes seemed to be proportioned to apply the front brakes first - resulting in front brakes being worn out long before rears.. I assume (and thats dangerous) they probably did that because the front brakes have better stopping power - maybe...

This brings up another subject. For years my relatives (goofy kids) all wanted me to help them get street bikes. I always agreed as long as it was under my terms and for most those terms were to stiff. I reguired one year of woods riding with me on dirt bikes before I would even go look at a street bike with them - couldnt live with myself if I lost one of my family to being untrained and I had given my stamp of approval. My two nephews who finally did take me up on my offer both ended up LOVING dirt biking so much that they both own dirt bikes and street bikes now 20 years later.. Besides learning that wheelies, throttling up instead of hitting the brakes over obstacales, hand/foot control cordination, riding standing up and all that crazy stuff are tools that will save your life on the street, they also learned braking methods on a motocross track easily apply to street riding.. I know,, alllll sounds nuts BUT, look who the messenger is:big-grin-emoticon:..........

 

Edited June 7, 2015 by cowpuc

[Great White]

Front brakes do then lions share on vehicles (2, 3, 4 wheels and more) due to weight transfer from rear to front with brake application. Its why the front end dives under braking. Even if you just use the rear brake, you still get the weight transfer effect, the bike just squats more because the rear brake is used.

 

The weight transfer effect also makes rear wheel lockup far more likely unless the rear brake is modulated properly.

 

Also why proportioning valves are used in cars and trucks.

 

[Venturous Randy]

It is my understanding that about 70% of effective braking is done by the front brake. That's a lot of brake use to give up by not using it in an emergency.

Randy

[Great White]

It is my understanding that about 70% of effective braking is done by the front brake. That's a lot of brake use to give up by not using it in an emergency.

Randy

 

Not sure on the percentage, I would guesstimate higher. But quite correct on all points.