Engine turning over too slow to start?

[Gearhead]

"- Check voltage at the batt while cranking. = Drop of 8 on the meter

- Check for voltage drop on the ground side of circuit. Put VOM red on starter body, black on batt neg, crank engine, check reading. This is your voltage drop, and should not be much. I would think .5V is too high, should be less. = 2-3

- Check for drop on hot side. Put VOM red lead on batt pos, black on starter power lug. Crank engine, check reading. This side of the circuit has to go through the solenoid, but again I wouldn't really want more than .5V drop = Same again, 3."

 

Do you really mean your voltage drops were 2 to 3 volts on hot and ground sides? Or was that .2 to .3? If it's 2 to 3, then you have way too much drop on both sides.

 

If batt ran headlight for 4 hours, it's probably good. Probably.

 

That big ground point is all that really matters for starter power. The wiring harness ground ties to the frame below and to the left of the battery. It's a real bear to get to without removing the upper fairing, but I did manage it; I wanted to check, clean and grease the connection.

 

 

"I took the starter out, gave it a quick spin on the floor and it spun nice, I then took the lead off it and noticed that it was wired straight to the body, someone had taken the small 10mm bold off completely and put the main wire directly to it. The result of this is that the main motor inside the starer looks burned:("

 

Not sure what you mean here, but it could be significant. What lead is wired straight to the body, and where? 'Splain, or provide pictures.

 

Jeremy

[woz111]

Hi Jeremy.

Thanks again for your help, I'll charge the battery up again tonight and do a test again with the voltage meter for you tomorrow.

I've ordered another starter motor which I should receive this week and I've got a new starter solenoid arriving tomorrow as well, so I hope to get the bike started this week.

 

"I took the starter out, gave it a quick spin on the floor and it spun nice, I then took the lead off it and noticed that it was wired straight to the body, someone had taken the small 10mm bold off completely and put the main wire directly to it. The result of this is that the main motor inside the starer looks burned:("

 

Not sure what you mean here, but it could be significant. What lead is wired straight to the body, and where? 'Splain, or provide pictures.

 

Right, what I meant here is:- When I started taking the starter motor off, I first took the big black cable off, it's held onto the starter motor by a 10mm nut, which has another 10mm nut underneath it and a nylon washer, the cable goes straight to the starter solenoid, I took the small 10mm nut off the starter motor and then realised that the cable was held on by the inner nut and nylon washer, so the live cable was held directly onto the starter motors body resulting in the live going straight onto the starter motors outer body. I assume this has burned out the starters amateur motor and maybe the starter solenoid, what do you think?

I'm not very good at explaining so I do apologise.

[Gearhead]

Hey, that makes sense, and it's not good! Are you sure the cable was making contact with the body? If so, that's a direct short! This explains the hot solenoid, but I'm surprised the thing turned over at all. Did you fix it so none of the lug or stud is contacting?

 

Jeremy

[woz111]

Yep, I sorted out the starter, took it apart 100% and reassembled it correctly after cleaning up all the contacts etc. The only thing is the amateur looked a little burned/purple tinge, also the starter solenoid still gets hot so I think that's had it as well. The starter wire was directly on the starter body, with the nylon washer and nut holding it firmly down, daft I know, I was also surprised that it spun over at all, I'd assume that it would have blown a fuse or something, obviously it's done a lot more:( I'll take the starter out again tomorrow as well, do you know of a way of testing the amateur?

Do you want me to take a picture of the starter in bits and a close up of the amateur?

 

I've put the new starter solenoid on today, it's a genuine Yamaha part, and can report that it's now not getting hot any more but still sluggish turning over. So I'll have to wait for the new starter to arrive and give it another go then.

[Gearhead]

Pics probably not necessary at this point. You will soon have another armature to compare against. I think you can check continuity in the armature by checking from certain commutator pads to certain others. I'm not sure which ones, check your manual to see if it has a procedure. Factory service manual is available for download here.

 

Jeremy

[Condor]

Just a thought. Could it be a timing problem, and the reason the starter relay heats up is that the engine is bogging down so much it's pulling a ton of amps to get it to spin??? Years ago when rebuilding motors you could get the distributor in 180deg out because they hadn't designed offset dogs on the bottom of the shaft. Dang engine would barely turn over.... Just a thought.....

[woz111]

I don't think it's a timing prob, I put a new starter solenoid in today and it doesn't heat up anymore, the starter motor nut heats up now though, when I get the new one I'll let you know if it's still the same. Anyone got a spare cable transfer housing for an 83 venture royal, I'm also missing the boost sensor? Thanks Mike for helping me with this, top man:)

[Gearhead]

I suspect that when the starter lug was grounded to the body something got too hot and melted, and that's causing your low starter power. You'll know soon.

 

Jeremy

[woz111]

Fitted the new starter and still the same, I tried turning over the engine manually and after a few turns noticed some drag, I think that maybe the starter clutch has been tampered with, if so, what could be the results??? Bent valves? There's a clicking sound at a certain point of the manual turnover as well as the engine drag? F**K

[Dano]

Just a thought, pull the clutch apart and try it. I once had a Kawi that had the basket freeze up to the housing and almost threw me overboard. At least you eliminate the tranny. Something is dragging in that motor.

 

Good luck,

 

Dan

[GeorgeS]

You might have a Bad " Starter Engage Clutch Unit "

 

Have you examined, Both Ends ( the crimped on studs ) of Both Battery Cables for

corrosion ? Also at the Solinoid. ??

 

I would consider resoldering the Studs on all the heavy cables, and at the Solinoid.

 

Also, pull the cover off the left side of the Crank Shaft, and try turning the engine over by hand with a wrench, to get a feel for how much force is needed to crank over the engine. Do this with the plugs Removed, ( see IPC for checking engine timeing )

[Gearhead]

I don't remember the exact results of your electrical tests, or if they were done before or after you fixed the pos terminal. Now, with your new starter, repeat those tests for voltage drop on both sides of the circuit while cranking. Also measure voltage from starter pos post to starter body while cranking, and batt voltage while cranking. These should tell you if any of the cables are your problem.

 

Didn't somebody mention a problem if some gasket wasn't the right thickness where the starter got clamped and restricted from turning freely?

 

If the Starter Clutch is bad, will the starter turn fast but the engine drag as the clutch slips?

 

Jeremy

[woz111]

Hi Jeremy.

I overhauled the new starter and I took my old starter to get it tested and they're fine, I had a mechanic in to look at the engine, he started turning it over by hand and he said that there's some drag in the engine, took the cam covers off to see if the valves were bent but they look good, they all go up and down as they should. I'll have to take the starter clutch off the weekend to check that, any words of advice here what to do and what to look out for?

[GeorgeS]

See the 1st Gen Maint Library Section: Complete Info with photo's about the Starter Engage Clutch.

Most likley, If its never been replaced, then , it needs replacement.

Cost for parts, is about $110.00 . and some tools.

[Dano]

Woz, if it were me, I would pull the left side cover off (loosen the bolts till they are almost out, then pop the cover loose, remove the bolts all the way and the cover will come off easy, your flywheel is a big magnet and will try to hold the stator which is attached to the cover), try spinning the small gears up to the left of the flywheel (may have to pull starter to do this). They should spin freely in clockwise direction but not spin in the other. The gear attached to the back of the flywheel (big round heavy drum) is your starter clutch. If it does not spin freely, then that is likely the problem. See previous posts on this problem. If it does spin freely, pull the clutch cover off and remove the clutch cover plate and the discs. Now try to turn the motor over by hand (with the plugs removed to release compression). If it still turns tight, then crank or rod bearings are dragging and you'll have to pull the motor. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. I believe your starter and the wiring is not the issue. Certainly had some problems there, but could have been brought about by the motor not turning easy enough. Try these 2 items and see what happens.

 

Dan

[woz111]

Hi all.

I've had a look under first gen Stator George, and I'll take your advice Dan and do like you say mate, I'll have to leave it till Saturday though as I'm working tomorrow, thanks everyone for all your advice. I'll let you know how this goes, I hope I don't have to pull the engine as the guy I bought it from assured me the engine was running great until he had a problem with the spark.

[GeorgeS]

Order some new Case Cover Gaskets, you will need them !!

 

Two for left side, and the clutch cover on right side.

 

Also, " IF " you pull the Clutch Cover, then I would also replace the Clutch Springs,

if that has never been done, They are Cheap, and prevent future clutch slippage problems.

 

Also, IF you pull the left side covers, would be a good time to replace, or rebuild the " Clutch Hydralic Slave Cylinder " An " age " related item.

[woz111]

I won't order any gaskets, if I got to pull the engine out and do a total stripdown I'll order a full gasket set, it'll be cheaper for me.

[hipshot]

woz!

i have mt left side cover off at present, waiting on gaskets and 3 bolts.

my starter clutch went bad, BECAUSE, two of the three bolts, that hold it in place, had backed out and were "finger tight.

in fact, they couldn't back out any further, because they were RUBBING/DRAGING, on the housing.

this mis-alignment, caused the starter clutch disk , to crack,all the way through, in two places.i have all of this posted in an older thread, somewhere about three weeks ago.

click on "hipshot", and do a search for all posts started by me. there are pictures that help explain.

just jt

[woz111]

Right, I've now put another starter motor in and it's now turning over as it should, turns out the starter motor amateur was burned out. unfortunately it's not sparking. It's had a new igniter unit fitted so does anyone know what else I should be checking?

[Squeeze]

Sidestand Switch and Engine Stop Switch on right Handlebar.

[woz111]

I've got the bike on its centre stand, that wouldn't cut the spark out? I also made sure that the right hand cut out switch was on the run position. Does the xvz1200 have a crank sensore for the spark timing? If so does this mean that I have to take out the starter clutch to get to it?

[Stanman]

Even with it on the center stand, the sidestand switch could be sticking a little. Wouldn't hurt to check it.

[Squeeze]

You need to download the Shop Manual and check Voltages on several Items in use.

 

Sure there is a Timing Sensor at the Flywheel, it's a double Sensor Setup inside the Stator Cover. You don't need to undo the Starter Clutch nor the Cover itself to measure the Resistances on both Pickup Coils. The Connector is on the left Side near the Frame in a little behind the Area where the Carbs and the Airbox fit together.

[woz111]

Hi Squeeze, one has 3 thick white wires and the other has 5 wires. I must also admit that I'm not at all sure how to use my multi voltage meter, I have a Mastech M-830B, do I set it on DCV, ACV, DCA, and also on what setting? I should have studied auto electrical in college.