Engine turning over too slow to start?

[woz111]

Hi.

I've bought a non running XVZ1200, 83 model, and have started rebuilding it. I bought a new battery/plugs etc to try and fire it up but it turns over way to slowly. When I press the start button the battery level just drops right down? I've also noticed the starter solenoid gets red hot when the engine's turning overhttp://www.yamahaventureclub.co.uk/forum//smileys/smiley24.gif I burned my fingers on the terminalshttp://www.yamahaventureclub.co.uk/forum//smileys/smiley35.gif, that's how hot it gets.

[Gearhead]

Well, you could have:

 

1) Failure to charge battery

2) Problem with wiring to starter

3) Problem with starter motor

4) Mechanical problem with engine causing high drag.

 

No. 4 seems unlikely. No. 3 happens. Mine is draggy when hot. I want to pull it off, clean it out, check the brushes, lube the bushings. No. 2 happens a lot. Usually it's a matter if high resistance in a terminal somewhere, or sometimes in the solenoid (this would explain the hot solenoid). But you said batt voltage drops way down when you hit the button? Where are you measuring voltage? If it's right on the battery and it goes below, oh, maybe 10 volts at the batt, that would tend to tell me the problem is in the battery, or a dead short in the wiring between the solenoid and the starter. As for the battery, did you buy a wet-cell where you have to add the acid? Did you follow the charging instructions before installation?

 

Jeremy

[woz111]

Hi Jeremy.

I've pulled the starter out and spun it over on the floor, it worked great. I've also checked the earth on the front right of the engine and it looks good, I'll take it loose and clean it tomorrow. The battery I bought new from a reputable bike dealer, it's a wet cell battery and they sorted it out. You can see the voltage readout on the clocks drop when it's trying to turn over, it goes right down and the front light goes dim as soon as it turns over?

[Gearhead]

Do you know if the dealer actually charged the batt? There are specific instructions that after you put in the acid it is supposed to be charged slowly, like 2A, for 12 hours or something.

 

At the gages - OK - do you have a portable volt meter? If you do:

 

- Check voltage at the batt while cranking.

- Check for voltage drop on the ground side of circuit. Put VOM red on starter body, black on batt neg, crank engine, check reading. This is your voltage drop, and should not be much. I would think .5V is too high, should be less.

- Check for drop on hot side. Put VOM red lead on batt pos, black on starter power lug. Crank engine, check reading. This side of the circuit has to go through the solenoid, but again I wouldn't really want more than .5V drop.

- In either case, voltage drop comes from bad connections or bad contacts, such as in the solenoid.

 

Jeremy

[Neil86]

The headlight will go out when cranking, theres a set of contacts that open behind starter button to conserve power while cranking. I'd recharge battery, remove plugs and crank the engine with no compression to help prime the oil system, verify no mechanical drag issues, before reinstalling plugs and starting.

[woz111]

Hi Neil.

I've tried taking the plugs out but it's the same, slow turning over and battery going down quickly, will it be okay to put a car battery on it? it won't blow the cdi or anything like that?

[Squeeze]

... or a dead short in the wiring between the solenoid and the starter. ...

 

Jeremy, a slow turning Starter Motor is nearly a dead short on the Battery.

 

Hi Neil.

I've tried taking the plugs out but it's the same, slow turning over and battery going down quickly, will it be okay to put a car battery on it? it won't blow the cdi or anything like that?

 

As long as the Car Battery is 12 Volts, its a very good Idea to try a bigger Capacity.

 

I would try to jump the Starter Solenoid. It's known Problem. But be carefull, you're dealing with all the Energy a Battery can deliver. Don't shorten it to anthing else than the other Terminal.

[bongobobny]

My thoughts, possible bad solenoid contacts, which wil amke the positive lead heat up to the solenoid, or possibly coroded ground conection on the negative side of battery. The stock battery wires are enemic at best and should be upgraded to thicker wires, available on this site, but the way you are describing how hot the solenoid circuit is getting makes me think bad solenoid...

[woz111]

I was talking to another guy(thanks Mike) who says it sounds like it's the solenoid, it gets hot and drains the battery due to it malfunctioning, does this also sound familiar to anyone with mk1 Venture? Also, if it was drag from the engine it wouldn't make the solenoid overheat, would it? The bike has only done 27000 miles and the guy I bought it from assured me the engine was sound.

[Gearhead]

If you do the voltage drop checks I described, you will know where the problem is and not be guessing!

 

Jeremy

[Dano]

Try taking the 4" round circle cover off the left side cover of the motor (not the middle gear cover). Find the right size socket (32mm for big nut, 19mm for smaller one) and try to turn the motor over by hand, without the plugs in, of course. If it turns over somewhat easy, but not really hard, then main bearings are probably OK. This will then eliminate all but the starter and its circuit. Question for others--is it possible that something in the starter clutch setup could be dragging? Just thinkin'.

 

 

Dan

[Squeeze]

...Question for others--is it possible that something in the starter clutch setup could be dragging? Just thinkin'.

 

 

Dan

 

You could assemble the Gears somehow wrong and they wouldn't be aligned properly, but even this wouldn't cause the Gears to drag. So the Answer is "NO".

[woz111]

Hi Jeremy.

Done the checks with a voltage meter.

 

- Check voltage at the batt while cranking. = Drop of 8 on the meter

- Check for voltage drop on the ground side of circuit. Put VOM red on starter body, black on batt neg, crank engine, check reading. This is your voltage drop, and should not be much. I would think .5V is too high, should be less. = 2-3

- Check for drop on hot side. Put VOM red lead on batt pos, black on starter power lug. Crank engine, check reading. This side of the circuit has to go through the solenoid, but again I wouldn't really want more than .5V drop = Same again, 3.

 

So would you agree that it's looking good for the starter solenoid being at fault? I'll order one anyway as they only cost £28 here in the UK, I'll let you know if this solves the problem. Thanks all.

[Squeeze]

Hi Jeremy.

Done the checks with a voltage meter.

 

- Check voltage at the batt while cranking. = Drop of 8 on the meter

- Check for voltage drop on the ground side of circuit. Put VOM red on starter body, black on batt neg, crank engine, check reading. This is your voltage drop, and should not be much. I would think .5V is too high, should be less. = 2-3

- Check for drop on hot side. Put VOM red lead on batt pos, black on starter power lug. Crank engine, check reading. This side of the circuit has to go through the solenoid, but again I wouldn't really want more than .5V drop = Same again, 3.

 

So would you agree that it's looking good for the starter solenoid being at fault? I'll order one anyway as they only cost £28 here in the UK, I'll let you know if this solves the problem. Thanks all.

 

I think so.

 

Did you try to shortcut the Posts on the Starter Solenoid ? With beeing the Solenoid internal the Culprit, the Starter Motor should work fine with the Posts of the Solenoid shortened.

[woz111]

I did, but the solenoid get so hot when I put a screwdriver between the two solenoid points that I'm scared in case it burns a wire out, it still spun slow though.

[Squeeze]

First check your Ground Connections from Battery to Frame, Enogine Case to Frame and from Starter Motor to the Engine Casing which are the two Bolts holding the Starter in Place.

 

You didn't press the Starter Button while shortcutting the Posts on the Solenoid ?

 

If so and the ground Connection check out fine, the Starter motor needs at least a good cleaning and some Re-manufacturing.

 

When you shortcut the Posts without the Solenoid Contacts in use, there should be no warming on the Solenoid and the Starter should spin like it should. Because all the Energy provided by the Battery goes through the Screwdriver's Tip. This would make no Resistance at that Point. All existing Resistance is provided by the Starter Motor, which is in the first Moment of Current flowing in a Shortcut itself. When the Starter starts to spin, the Resistance builds up through the changes of the magnetic Field which make the Rotor spin. But even this is a very low Resistance.

[bikenut]

Hi All

You could have some shorting going on with the armature of the starter.

The grooves on the armature can get pluged up with the Brush compond and cause it to turn over very slow and will act like a dead short. My 86 Venture did that to me so I removed the starter took it apart cleaned the Slots on the Armature out with a small knife, Took some emery cloth and lightly sanded the armature down to remove all burs from the knife. NOT ANY MORE THEN THAT.It has been go ever since I put it back on the bike. That was like 12 years ago.

Good Luck and hope you get it fixed without to much money.

[woz111]

I've now checked the earth from battery to engine which is good, and I've taken the spark plugs out and turned the engine over by hand (anticlockwise by socket & ratchet). I'll take out the starter motor tomorrow and take it apart, it's now all pointing to either the starter or solenoid so I hope to get some sort of noise out of it tomorrow, or at least get it spinning over as it should. I was going to try and get it going now but I've been out for about 4 hours and I left the ignition on, which means the headlamps been on since then so I assume that the battery's okay?

[Dano]

Recharge battery if needed, find a slight slope downhill, grab hold of the bars on the left side of bike; start running and pushing bike, jump on, hit 2nd gear and release clutch (with key on!) start the thing and go for a ride. After this rest and relaxation, THEN pull starter and clean it out!!!!

 

 

Dan

[woz111]

Haha, I wish I could just bump it downhill, could you imagine it not starting and having to push it back up hill if it don't start, I'd need an iron lung by the time I got it back home. Trying to bump my Kawasaki GT750 was bad enough the Venture must way twice that even without the top box and side cases on it:sick:

[Squeeze]

If you have the Starter out and willing to give a spin, don't let it run too long. Too Long means, depending on the mechanical Resistance, not longer than 10 to 15 Seconds.

 

This is a DC Machine and if it's long enough on Current, it starts to self induce and won't stop anymore until it disintegrates, even when you take the Current away.

[cowpuc]

Sounds like starter drag to me too.. Jump it directly to the starter with a car battery. Bypassing everything will eliminate a lot of testing if it is... Also,, dont just assume it is the starter if it still drags at this point.. Pull the starter if it still drags and test it out of the bike - could be as simple as an amature clean up or as deep as rusted up cylinders.... Just gotta toy with it..

[woz111]

I took the starter out, gave it a quick spin on the floor and it spun nice, I then took the lead off it and noticed that it was wired straight to the body, someone had taken the small 10mm bold off completely and put the main wire directly to it. The result of this is that the main motor inside the starer looks burned:(. I then reassembled the starer & tried it again, it's a little better but not much, I still get the solenoid going hot so I think I'll order a new one, which'll take 3 days to arrive, I can't win:confused24:

[matt73ander]

had similar trouble with mine after tearing apart for 2nd gear fix, hit the start button and it would just click. put the meter on it and it had voltage at the starter when i hit the button but it was down to 8v, checked the battery voltage and it dropped to 9v when i hit the button. took the crankcase cover of to check the stater gear train, it all looked good so i just put the cover back on and held it by hand, hit the stater and it cranked just fine. i'd been making my own gaskets instead of ordering the real one so broke down and order one hoping there was a clearance issue with the homemade one's. sure didn't look like that was gonna be it after looking at it but that seemed to be the problem cause it cranks over great now

[woz111]

Could someone tell me where all the earth points are as I've only cleaned the one on the front right hand side of the engine, I've had a quick look but can't find the others? I may as well try cleaning these up while I'm waiting for the new solenoid.