2nd gear issue; easy yes or no answer needed

[Great White]

This is the split washer/ thrust washer that causes all the problems:

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/EB2D25C5-0B59-4B60-83A8-B3D01E5199D4_zpsezhncgs9.jpg

 

yes or no?

 

[icebrrg3rd]

I'm pretty sure YES, however you need the whole engine out of the frame & split open and that shaft needs to have a spring compressed to replace the split washer.

 

-Andrew

[Great White]

I'm pretty sure YES, however you need the whole engine out of the frame & split open and that shaft needs to have a spring compressed to replace the split washer.

 

-Andrew

 

Thanks.

 

yep, I'm aware of the need to split the case.

 

My 83 only has 31,000 Kms (~19,000 miles) on it and no indication of second gear issues.

 

I'm tearing it down to put VMax heads on it this winter. I figured since i was going to be almost torn down to the cases anyways, it would be a good time to put in the hardened thrust and split washer and make future second gear issues more unlikely...

 

[icebrrg3rd]

I got my bike at 72k miles (if that was the original speedo) and I tried 2nd gear full throttle and it didn't slip, but after a few thousand miles it started slipping if I hammered it but held at constant speeds. I replaced the whole gearset and forks from a '88.

 

So yes, if you're in there for any reason, do it.

 

-Andrew

[MiCarl]

That is not the washer. The washer you're looking for is inside the transmission. Your picture is of the middle gearset input shaft.

[Condor]

That is not the washer. The washer you're looking for is inside the transmission. Your picture is of the middle gearset input shaft.

 

Beat me to it Carl.....

[Great White]

Care to point out the proper one?

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/transmission_zpsmcq01oh6.png

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/middle_zpsiuwchkze.png

 

I ordered the parts from the Yamaha service bulletin M85-014 (can be found here on the forum) that identifies the second gear issue and the bulletin showed the middle shaft. Parts fish also jives with this....

[Great White]

Oopps, the Technical bulletin is available on this forum, but Dingy posted a better version of the same one on the VMax site:

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/TSBTW_zpssgt07ste.jpg

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that sure looks like the assembly I posted in the first pic....

[MiCarl]

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but that sure looks like the assembly I posted in the first pic....

 

That is the assembly you posted. It's not where the shifting problem is. I suspect that service bulletin is noting to check those items when servicing the transmission.

 

I've never done this job, but I suspect the problem is with #15 and #16 in this pic:

Edited May 29, 2015 by MiCarl

[Great White]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

 

As long as I'm not misunderstanding the diagrams above (from parts fish) number 14 is the driven gear for #2 . It is located on the driven shaft (or middle shaft if you prefer). The driven shaft is kept from "walking" by the split/thrust washer in question.

 

If the washer in the tech bulletin is worn, it's going to allow the driven shaft to move (or walk, or jack, etc) when torque is applied. More so in this design since it's also dealing with the tendency for the right angle drive to "climb".

 

This would allow the #2 driven gear to move with the driven shaft and could result in insufficient contact with the dogs and the skipping. The service bulletin says the same thing, just not as expanded.

 

This is even worse if the dogs don't have much contact to begin with, as seems to be born out by anecdotal comments and Yamaha redesigning the gears for increased dog engagement in the 85+ models.

 

Just for good measure though, once I have it out I'm going to set up the rotary table on the mill and undercut the dogs about 1-2 degrees. No more than 2 degrees though, it's a street bike not a race bike. I'm also going to shim the gears with the Vmax shim pack to remove additional side play.

 

The bike is not going to be an unholy powerhouse or be ridden overly hard, I just don't want it to let me down somewhere far away from home.

 

Admittedly, I'm still reading and researching, and I could turn a 180 once in get the box open and am looking at the components vice diagrams. This is all stuff I learned (and forgot) more than 20 odd years ago when I left the trade. But it's still in there, just needs some updating and refreshing....

 

Edited May 30, 2015 by Great White

[Venturous Randy]

The problem is the noted thrush washer and thrush plate. What causes this to wear is a too soft material in the thrush plate. The reason this wears is due to the spring pressure pushing against the washer/plate. It is not due to the bike being run hard. As the thrush washer/plate wears, it reduces the engagement on how far the second gear dogs go into the matching gear. To make this worse, when the problem starts, it will put more pressure on the fork that holds second gear in place, bending the fork tips and allowing even less engagement. If you look at the forks on a bad unit, you will see there will be score marks on one side of the tips of the forks and on the other side of the fork in the "U" shaped area. These forks can be straightened, but it is probably better to replace them.

My suggestion is to pick up a complete 2nd gen transmission assembly from Pinwall, including forks and the shifting drum, along with a V-Max final drive and you will be a happy camper.

Randy

[Great White]

The problem is the noted thrush washer and thrush plate. What causes this to wear is a too soft material in the thrush plate. The reason this wears is due to the spring pressure pushing against the washer/plate. It is not due to the bike being run hard. As the thrush washer/plate wears, it reduces the engagement on how far the second gear dogs go into the matching gear. To make this worse, when the problem starts, it will put more pressure on the fork that holds second gear in place, bending the fork tips and allowing even less engagement. If you look at the forks on a bad unit, you will see there will be score marks on one side of the tips of the forks and on the other side of the fork in the "U" shaped area. These forks can be straightened, but it is probably better to replace them.

My suggestion is to pick up a complete 2nd gen transmission assembly from Pinwall, including forks and the shifting drum, along with a V-Max final drive and you will be a happy camper.

Randy

 

I have been perusing your older threads about the vmax rear and 2nd gen transmission with some interest. Alas, not in the cards for this winter.

 

Money and the wife is going to say no way.

 

Vmax heads, transmission fixes, r6 brakes, mkII forks, aftermarket audio system, mkII wiring harness with class and venture cruise will be it.

 

Last thing to buy was the vmax heads and barely got that past her. Probably has something to do with just having bought the xzv12 and the fj1200 only a month or so ago.

 

 

 

 

Hmm, this is getting to be pretty long for an "easy yes or no".

 

http://mingle2.com/assets/smileys/rofl.gif

Edited May 30, 2015 by Great White

[zagger]

This is the split washer/ thrust washer that causes all the problems:

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/EB2D25C5-0B59-4B60-83A8-B3D01E5199D4_zpsezhncgs9.jpg

 

yes or no?

 

 

Yes, it has been quite a few years since I did that fix, but I believe you are pointing to the right one.

I had to improvise a press to remove the spring pressure so that the ring and two split ring halves could be replaced. My 2nd gear wasn't skipping yet, but the split rings had fairly deep grooves where they contacted the shaft.

Here is a picture of my press - it only had to work for about 30 seconds. I survived so, please, no smart remarks about the method! I believe that the top piece of plywood had a hole centered on the shaft to allow replacement of the split ring and ring. I kept them as hard-won souvenirs and made them into a small hanging mobile for the shop (along with some other engine bits from other bikes).

zag

 

Edited May 30, 2015 by zagger

[zagger]

I have been perusing your older threads about the vmax rear and 2nd gen transmission with some interest. Alas, not in the cards for this winter.

 

Money and the wife is going to say no way.

 

Vmax heads, transmission fixes, r6 brakes, mkII forks, aftermarket audio system, mkII wiring harness with class and venture cruise will be it.

 

Last thing to buy was the vmax heads and barely got that past her. Probably has something to do with just having bought the xzv12 and the fj1200 only a month or so ago.

 

 

 

 

Hmm, this is getting to be pretty long for an "easy yes or no".

 

http://mingle2.com/assets/smileys/rofl.gif

 

You might want to consider adding the vmax "boost" valves. These valves effectively double the air and gas by allowing a single cylinder to breath through two carbs. The full boost only is effective at high rpm's but I've found that the std. engine seems to run a bit better at all speeds by having the boost valves just cracked open a little. This is easy for me to set since I use a ratcheting bicycle shift lever on the end of the left handlebar to set the boost valve position and the first click (valves open slightly) is where I normally operate the engine. If you maintain the stock housing over the engine, you might not have room for the carbs to sit on top of the valves - but maybe you can modify things a bit. My bike is modified so much that adding these valves wasn't a problem.

Just a thought.

zag

[Great White]

You might want to consider adding the vmax "boost" valves. These valves effectively double the air and gas by allowing a single cylinder to breath through two carbs. The full boost only is effective at high rpm's but I've found that the std. engine seems to run a bit better at all speeds by having the boost valves just cracked open a little. This is easy for me to set since I use a ratcheting bicycle shift lever on the end of the left handlebar to set the boost valve position and the first click (valves open slightly) is where I normally operate the engine. If you maintain the stock housing over the engine, you might not have room for the carbs to sit on top of the valves - but maybe you can modify things a bit. My bike is modified so much that adding these valves wasn't a problem.

Just a thought.

zag

 

It is in the back of my mind.

 

Alas, money and wife dictates it shall have to wait for a later date.

 

On the split washer subject: did changing the split and thrust washer work long term or did you end up with a skipping second year anyways?

[zagger]

It is in the back of my mind.

 

Alas, money and wife dictates it shall have to wait for a later date.

 

On the split washer subject: did changing the split and thrust washer work long term or did you end up with a skipping second year anyways?

 

I've never had any problems with the gears over the 8 years I have had the bike and I couldn't find any evidence inside the gearbox that the gears had skipped in the past before I bought it. I did the washer update simply because the problem seemed to be well understood and I wanted to avoid future problems if possible. The two half washers were obviously worn where they contact the shaft - maybe a quarter or a third of their thickness was worn away.

Pulling out the engine and splitting it open to access the gears fixing everything and reinstalling the engine, is obviously not a project which can be done over a rainy weekend!

 

Regarding vboost: attempting to implement the automatic vboost function with servo motor, etc. would be quite a project and, in my opinion, not worth the effort. Finding the valves on ebay and rigging up some way to manually operate them is pretty simple if the area around the intakes isn't too cramped for the valves to be added easily. My bike has lots of space in that area but it is quite far from a stock configuration.

zag

Edited May 31, 2015 by zagger

[Great White]

I've never had any problems with the gears over the 8 years I have had the bike and I couldn't find any evidence inside the gearbox that the gears had skipped in the past before I bought it. I did the washer update simply because the problem seemed to be well understood and I wanted to avoid future problems if possible. The two half washers were obviously worn where they contact the shaft - maybe a quarter or a third of their thickness was worn away.

Pulling out the engine and splitting it open to access the gears fixing everything and reinstalling the engine, is obviously not a project which can be done over a rainy weekend!

 

Regarding vboost: attempting to implement the automatic vboost function with servo motor, etc. would be quite a project and, in my opinion, not worth the effort. Finding the valves on ebay and rigging up some way to manually operate them is pretty simple if the area around the intakes isn't too cramped for the valves to be added easily. My bike has lots of space in that area but it is quite far from a stock configuration.

zag

 

Sean morely actually got it done:

 

http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r618/justonepict/1082236_10152337704828679_770325754_o_zps5dpifrjh.jpg

 

Heck of a bike.

 

I would probably go more along the lines of a vacuum controlled microprocessor of sorts. Not a real challenge for me. That's all way off in the future though.

 

Edited May 31, 2015 by Great White

[Wizard765]

I did the 2nd gear fix on my 84 a couple of years ago and yes you can see the split washer in that picture. mine had a groove worn in it that shifted everything just enough that 2nd would not completely engage. I believe if you change that split washer #6 in the diagram. BEFORE any damage is done then you would be good to go

[Great White]

The problem is the noted thrush washer and thrush plate. What causes this to wear is a too soft material in the thrush plate. The reason this wears is due to the spring pressure pushing against the washer/plate. It is not due to the bike being run hard. As the thrush washer/plate wears, it reduces the engagement on how far the second gear dogs go into the matching gear. To make this worse, when the problem starts, it will put more pressure on the fork that holds second gear in place, bending the fork tips and allowing even less engagement. If you look at the forks on a bad unit, you will see there will be score marks on one side of the tips of the forks and on the other side of the fork in the "U" shaped area. These forks can be straightened, but it is probably better to replace them.

My suggestion is to pick up a complete 2nd gen transmission assembly from Pinwall, including forks and the shifting drum, along with a V-Max final drive and you will be a happy camper.

Randy

 

Well, now I've done it. Wife is gonna kill me.

 

I was looking to instal the upgraded shift drum sector (machined instead of bend over tabs) but it was too expensive from the dealer. Pushing 150 after all the pieces and taxes. So I had just ordered the gaskets and split/thrust washer.

 

Since I'm off work right now with a concussion, I was wasting time cruising ebay to see if I could turn up a cheap used one from a newer vmax or RSV. I came across a complete 2002 RSV transmission with shift drum (updated sector) and shift forks:

 

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTYwWDEyODA=/z/5OQAAOSwpdpVYJS2/$_57.JPG

 

99 bucks plus 25 bucks shipping.

 

Anyone want to guess what happened next?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At least I have a good reason why she can't hit me in the head......

Edited June 2, 2015 by Great White

[Flyinfool]

She smacked you in the head anyhow and hid your CC?

[Venturous Randy]

She ordered you a V-Max final drive to go with it?

Randy

[Great White]

I guess the question now is:

 

1. Do I put the 2nd gen transmission in the 83 and run it with the stock XZV12 rear end or,

 

2. Do I just put the new thrust washers in the 83 box, use the new shift sector and just shelve the rest of the 2nd gen transmission?

 

It's not a highway bike, I only squirt around locally and back and forth to work. Once or twice a year I might ride more than an hour away, tops.

 

Buying a vmax rear is definitely out of the question, unless I find one for like 25 bucks to my door (we all know that's not going to happen). I'm already waaaaay over budget on the parts list and the missus isn't going to be happy with me as it is....

Edited June 2, 2015 by Great White

[Great White]

screw it. I'm all in.

 

Bought an 86 VMax final drive off ebay for 70 bucks plus shipping and it included the drive shaft. Its a little cosmetically distressed, but i may just take it apart and swap over the bevel gears.

 

Wife is not going not be happy with me.....I'm definitely done buying parts now.

 

I may be afraid to go to sleep after she sees I put it on the visa card......

Edited June 3, 2015 by Great White

[Great White]

I manned up and told the missus. She said no worries, she understands.

 

Keep your distance men, she a keeper and she's mine!

 

[hell yea]

best fix is to fit 86 + gear set there are a lot of upgrades there and the ratios are the same.

If you do change the gear set yous your shims on the new gear set so your midal gear will line up right