'84 vsx1200 popping out carbs

[garyS-NJ]

quite coincidentally, I was rebuilding the starter for my yam xj550 yesterday and it has 4 brushes and a permanent magnet for the stator field. I haven't opened any two brush starters and didn't think about how they generate their static field. Not to spend too much time on this and I would figure that plenty of guys have looked into it anyway but I didn't want to buy a used 4 brush starter that was a slip fit and installing a new brush set to freshen it up THEN find it was same parts as my old one...

 

I looked on ebay and found one 2nd gen starter (I think) and it had Mitsuba P/N SM-229. but I thought that was a 1st gen starter? Way to confuse a thread garyS(started as popping out carbs and steve below is talking about valves which I suspected/dreaded). Anyway, I looked up starters and foundI think 1st gen is 26H-81800-10-00 and the 1996 and up second gen is 4NK-81800-00-00... but they both look like two brush starters (although early has replacement brushes and later has a brush set ). just because we're on starters now, can anyone clarify?

 

 

The four brush PLATE will physically fit, but your starter won't work. There are four 'poles', meaning four field coils on a four brush starter. Entirely non compatible electrical theory. There are only two poles and two field coils on a two brush starter.

If you go to all the trouble to remove the starter to mod the brush plate, you are more than half way toward installing a four brush starter. The four brush are not expensive used. Keep an eye on eBay. Often sold for $50 or so.

[garyS-NJ]

steve - good points on intake valves.. where did you describe the soak? I was figuring maybe the valves and guides schootched up as well as the seat area and hoping running with fresh oil and some sea foam (and the other zinc stuff I added, might loosen it up. yesterday with new plugs and work/running to date she was idling off choke and reved to 3500. sounding better and I'm getting my other bike together so I'm being patient with the XVZ12.

 

So carbs a side as we know they have to come off and gone through.

Get a can of Deep Creep and spary some around the carb/intake mating area, wait an hour, remove the small plate on top of the carbs left side, you can now see the linkage and cables, remove the black tube completely between the carbs, running from the PCV ( mine was too stiff to bend and move, presto!

 

What you describe is valve seats! The intake seats are leaking, the valves rusted, like the rings did, and it is wrong to force rings to free them, they should soak free, forcing them is like picking at a scab!

 

The seats are not sealing pressure on the intake side, so -as the pressure builds during combustion it is slipping past and up through the carbs. 2 choices soak them as I mentioned in my post or remove the heads! You could also prove me wrong and do a, compression test, but and also, a leak down test would be the correct test for this!

 

I seem to never have the right English to explain the air box, so I try to explain it this way: It serves as an air spring, it balances the air velocity and stream, it falls under tuning. Although different the exhaust system has a similar feature -we usually don't fallow or see it in the same light though, and that being back pressure! When I tune, with each step I add to the intake side of the carb, I look for a note that shows positive change, for example, extensions leading to the air box, the air box, the filter, the lid so on. It is harder to understand this then having a part number for a re jet, likely because it is not visible to us, so we don't see the importance of it.

 

 

If I have popping on a warm engine, I missed somethin!

 

Patch

[Patch]

steve - good points on intake valves.. where did you describe the soak? I was figuring maybe the valves and guides schootched up as well as the seat area and hoping running with fresh oil and some sea foam (and the other zinc stuff I added, might loosen it up. yesterday with new plugs and work/running to date she was idling off choke and reved to 3500. sounding better and I'm getting my other bike together so I'm being patient with the XVZ12.

 

A common overlooked problem is the seats. Picture the complete displacement chamber closed off to circulation, add condensation, add the years. The thing is the seats are a special spec material, not only do they seal but the cushion as well, try cutting a valve by hand, now try the seat, know what I mean?

If you have a rust line on the valve and you operate the engine you are changing the seat geometry, the more this happens the more likely you will be finding out what cutting a seat requires!

Yes operating it is fine--------But after you have dissolved the contaminates! Same for the rings!

 

Just exercise patience, and the inexpensive solvents I described, that has worked for me many, many times!

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?102387-Venture-Royal-refurbishing-back-to-touring-condition

 

PS: don't put expensive engine oil in the engine till you have completely finished the soaking, its just wasted, after I use synthetic, depending on mileage and driving temps, will tell me which to use, 40 or 50, the lower the compression the higher the #, or noise might also play a role in my choice.

 

Patch

[garyS-NJ]

thanks Steve -

I could see how filling cylinders with deep creep and kerosene could free up rings and clean up cylinder walls. but I don't see that getting to valve seats or much even to the guides until the engine is cranked on the starter for a while.. (would have to add stuff to the crankcase or let it drain past the rings). back in the day I used kerosene (before they sold motor flush) in the crankcase with oil to clear oil passages and especially hydraulic lifters (actually CRC used to make Valve medic for that and it was probably pretty much kerosene). I did this to a few of my old POS cars. and I would run a little bit and then change oil a couple of times and then spark plugs. I guess adding it to the crank of my bike and then periodically cranking it over would allow it to drain through the guides to the low side of any valve seats.. but I'd did a few different cyclinder soaks and have it running now so I think I'm to the point of running it with crankcase additives and fuel additives and then rebuilding the carbs if necessary. I was thinking perhaps the valves are just worn into the seats and so valves need to be re-shimed... but it's not popping at all out the exhaust so why would just the intakes be so bad? I'm thinking the carb is just running too lean so I get the popping out the intake only. fingers crossed.

[Patch]

Good questions: so for the intake seats, when the carbs are removed you fill through the intake, valves closed, yes it take a couple of timed rotations!

As for worn valves, could be, all soaking can do is expose the mating surfaces cleaning contact points, The problem with contaminated seats again is a hard material slapping with pressure a softer material, that being the seat! Seat material can displace changing or adapting to the valve, mainly why we cut the seat only to 1mm.

Why not the exhaust: if your pipes were off I would recommend you fill the ex port as well, none the less it will creep over and soften the build up as it also will soften any carbon or rust, via creep along the combustion chamber. Now the ex valve sees more pressure when cracking open then the intake, also we find that the carbon tends to build and level pitting, strangely enough. This by no means, means that exhaust valves are self mending, they operate under differant conditions and at higher heat range, they too are a different material!

 

Some times the results achieved are not what we hope for, for example we had one recently where we started at 180 on all 4 ending up with 150 on all 4; a double edged sword! In that case we easily know the problem as carbon buildup, should we have left it? No, removing it was a better choice! I have on the bench a rare V4, I mentioned to AJ we should take pics to show the tolerances and what happens in a V config to an engine that hasn't run for many years and why the carbon can have such a negative effect!

 

Moving past that, why I think a long soak is preferred: often we over look the fact that rings need to rotate, as do valves! Think it through and it'll click as to why. How the rings rotate is through a spec in honing, so it's a passive friction effective method, clutching through contaminates reduces this, I think you see the picture now, this means scoring and premature wear, a clean set is a good set; not a perfect set! Did you know the rings handle more than 45% of combustion heat transfer?

 

In the end we each are the stewards of our bikes, the decisions we make are based on many factors. Forums are where we share experience, by no means is it the only or best way, only the fellow stuck knows what works for him.

 

Hope that stuff helps, at least in general

 

Patch

[Patch]

Also and I forgot to include this; the backfiring you described can, leave deposits on the valve guides, and lift the stems seals, trust me on that one

[garyS-NJ]

Oh yes. If the carbs come off I'll soak through the runners.. pb blast? Ever hear of Evaporust? I used both in the jugs soak to break the rings free

[Patch]

Oh yes. If the carbs come off I'll soak through the runners.. pb blast? Ever hear of Evaporust? I used both in the jugs soak to break the rings free

 

I like to stick to what I know, however I am pleased to have played with the Deep Creep (been years now), it carries it weight in our little shop!

[garyS-NJ]

Sounds like the carbs gotta come off. Idles nice but still won't Rev past 3k

[Great White]

Oh yes. If the carbs come off I'll soak through the runners.. pb blast? Ever hear of Evaporust? I used both in the jugs soak to break the rings free

 

Lord no man!

 

Eihter take it to a shop that can dip them in the proper cleaner or buy a can and dunk 'em yourself.

 

Or; take it to a shop with an ultrasonic cleaner. That's about the best it's going to get.

 

The problem with "dirty" carbs is not rust, it's stale fuel that has forms a varnish like material on parts. It needs to be removed by an "aggressive" carb cleaning agent or by an ultrasonic bath, which breaks it up and leaves nothing but clean metal.

 

Make sure you leave no rubber or plastic parts if using dip.

 

I actually went out and bought my own ultrasonic.....

[garyS-NJ]

I have a can of Chem dip. Would love an ultrasonic. Which one did you buy? We had a heated one in my old shop but we also used dip.

[Great White]

I have a can of Chem dip. Would love an ultrasonic. Which one did you buy? We had a heated one in my old shop but we also used dip.

My sister worked at a place that went out of business. They were selling off all the lab equipment and I got it for 50 bucks.

 

Nice big Branson. Timer, heated etc.

 

Its got a 10L tank so I usually put my parts is a smaller bottle with cleaning solution, fill the main tank with hot water and let 'er go! Gets it done nicely, only use small amount of cleaner and can dump the main tank directly on the ground if I have too.

 

Never stop finding uses for it. Best 50 bucks I ever spent!

 

Edited May 16, 2015 by Great White

[Patch]

Something you should consider when you clean the carbs is the caked on dirt, these have on the housing. You don't want that flowing through, we plugged our nipples and let them soak overnight, brushing them off while standing the carbs tall in the 1.5 gal of Gunk. Notice I said 1.5 gal, I could of dropped them in a 5 gal pale or our large bath we use for heads; but because its a chem and we want to reuse it, we need to filter it in order to reuse it!

 

You don't want that stuff in or running through the jets or porting! Its not grease or oil that will dissolve for the most part its grit and that will float into linkage and all the other places we try to protect with filters during regular operation!

 

If you are the kind of fellow that wants a bright clean housing, you can achieve this simply by using an old rousting pot, a camping stove, 1.5 gal of water, 1/4 cup of Simple Green, the nice thing about it is, very friendly stuff, you just maintain a heat around 180 F, but I would still remove the crusty stuff 1st then Simple Green leave the surface with an easy fresh water rinse leaving no residue. I don't know how many of you do you own paint work, but I started using this on plastics in 08 as prep, with no regrets.

[garyS-NJ]

Nice on the simple green. I put that **** on everything. I usually spray carb cleaner on them till I'm high. Then blow, dissaasy, & chem soak, then wash, blow, spray,; blow, assy

[garyS-NJ]

The simple green was to prep plastic for paint?

[Patch]

Nice on the simple green. I put that **** on everything. I usually spray carb cleaner on them till I'm high. Then blow, dissaasy, & chem soak, then wash, blow, spray,; blow, assy

 

U a Funny Guy!

 

Simple Green for the castings, "Gary's trip" for the guts.

 

Regarding prep, I was suspicious too, but I tried it and it work better than good. Plastics, the old ones, are a challenge to custom paint because the heat deforms them, so we need to handle them way to much keeping them wet while you eye scan them for shape or true-ness, simple green breaks the surface tension allowing to to keep it wet/even flood, this way you pickup all the defects! The water will literally sheet off. From there tack-rag and straight to HK sealer/primer, once there you're on the clock!

This winter during a convalescence after falling off a bluff and going crazy from doin nothing, I strip down my old benz, and repainted it, (very good therapy;) ) outside of the base coat it was all chem prep and clear, would not be practicable to use simple green. There are painters that do use it for metal gas tank custom work.

 

Patch

[Prairiehammer]

Simple Green reports:

 

Simple Green products have been successfully and safely used on aircraft, automotive, industrial and consumer aluminum items for over 20 years. However, caution and common sense must be used: Aluminum is a soft metal that easily corrodes with unprotected exposure to water. The aqueous-base and alkalinity of Simple Green or Crystal Simple Green can accelerate the corrosion process. Therefore, contact times of All-Purpose Simple Green and Crystal Simple Green with unprotected or unpainted aluminum surfaces should be kept as brief as the job will allow - never for more than 10 minutes. Large cleaning jobs should be conducted in smaller-area stages to achieve lower contact time. Rinsing after cleaning should always be extremely thorough - paying special attention to flush out cracks and crevices to remove all Simple Green/Crystal Simple Green residues. Unfinished, uncoated or unpainted aluminum cleaned with Simple Green products should receive some sort of protectant after cleaning to prevent oxidation.

 

 

Look at the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) of the cleaners and you will see the strong chemical contents of them.

Just a FYI from the manufacturer.

 

[Patch]

Well that is true Kevin, some years back OK many years back I sold a different product to the aircraft industry for use on problematic helicopters, we also recommended certain acids one wouldn't think used for delicate stuff.

 

Simple Green seems to be more than well documented, one could ask why and or by whom or who paid the bills. It is a hard product to pick on as it seems to work well for so many things.

 

Now I have used it for carbs and also on magnesium mixed metals, I've always been satisfied with the results. One thing I can assure you all of is that it is an easy rinse, and after rinsing Simple green is gone, period.

 

Like many acids, cleaners off a shelf work better at temperature, for example a gold ring with a setting, placed in a small soup pot, with 1 cup of water and 1 TBS of MR. Kleen bring to a simmer place the ring inside cover with the lid lets say for 10 minutes, remove the ring, do not poor out the pot yet, quick rinse with fresh water, make sure all the stone are still there, now you can still feel the soap film on the gold, if the stones are all there dump the pot, try it again with Simple Green, is there a clear winner, I believe so and that is first hand knowledge.

 

Acid is a common cleaner, rinsing it is of the utmost importance, because it remains active, and with each part and each rinse it requires more rinsing baths ! TSP another common cleaner, major draw back, very hard to rinse.

 

Now here's a fellow blaming Simple Green for his mistake in not following the instructions, at all.

 

http://forum.miata.net/vb/archive/index.php/t-69480.html

 

Here is more stuff about their line:

http://industrial.simplegreen.com/ind_solutions_faqs.php?search_query=aluminum&search=Search

 

Patch

[garyS-NJ]

I love carb soak discussions. funny how women talk about dresses and men talk about carb soak. At my old shop we had a 5 gal pail of carb soak and my boss didn't even know what it was. but it worked. I tried not to breath too much of it but couldn't resist taking a sniff and it wasn't very volatile - so what solvents? I worked with a lot of different solvents over the years in a materials lab and watched them all get gone because they were so bad for people and the environment (but dam did they remove oils and silicone.

 

I don't think my can of Chem-Dip works as good as the unknown stuff we had in the shop.. and these guys say it's lost it's kahunas (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1309369_Berrymanandapos_s_andamp_quot_chem_dipandamp_quot__carburetor_cleaner_is_worthless_.html)

 

and I thought Simple Green used Lime Oil but this article says it got a nasty chemical (http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/simply-green-washing-are-you-using-toxic-cleaner). I'd use it but avoid drinking too much.. maybe wear gloves. I know I wouldn't soak aluminum for too long in it.. (or the chem dip). seems it wont really attack rubber and plastic

 

this guy like PineSol. I love Pinesol for mopping my common areas but maybe I'll soak the carbs as a set or two half sets (as long as I can spray all the orifices). hard to believe it doesn't attack rubber or plastic.. ( http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=560117).

 

I'd replace all the rubber anyway. take a closer look/think when I get the carbs off/.

 

good news is I got the XJ 550 running yesterday after a carb rebuild/rejet and some ignition work. So less pressure getting the Venture on the road (although I insured it yesterday!). The bigger jets really lit up the XJ under hard throttle but not so smooth in the midrange transition. I don't think she was ever that comfortable with pods and open pipes.

[Patch]

If you follow the link on page 3 paragraph 1, there are 3 main ingredients, water, water base chem, and heat.

For us in our little shop, we have a parts bath that runs around 15 gal I use the above, the concentrate however may change depending on what we are working on. We usually keep the bath for a year or so, adding only to replace, filtering or evap. When I started everything was, fast working, explosive, and highly hazardous!

 

http://www.doi.gov/greening/links/upload/Switching-to-Water-based-Cleaners-in-Repair-and-Maintenance-Parts-Cleaning.pdf

 

Now I can't soak my hands in my parts bath, even though it is a safer product to use, I don't have the same disposal problems, that might mean it's biodegradable, however it doesn't mean after use it meets any of the OK to dump so, I bring to the waste station.

 

Now it works well and fast when heated, seems useless to me cold! That is why I mentioned if you want to use S/G heat the container being used! Soaking times for any metal should be kept or limited to achieving the objective, heating gets you there quicker. How you heat depends on the chem and what's safe and practicable!

 

We also keep a 5 gal of mixed muriatic acid for steel parts, also way to slow cold, but heating it is dangerous as the fumes can/likely become explosive. But its a hard product to beat, mixing it or knowing if you have the right ratio takes practice.

 

I mentioned my old benze, 2 part would have been the right primer/sealer, but because I didn't do this in my shop, and the garage was attached, I chose other products that are more time consuming, and certainly less effective.

 

Lifting lids and taking a sniff, we've all done it, but we all need to teach the newbies that hang around us, that, that is a bad idea. Have you ever seen ammonia in a jug, looks like water, lifting that lid two feet below your nose is like a freight train under full power, in a loop, through your head, you are completely helpless to control what ever happens next, again first hand experience!

 

That's it I'm moving on

 

Patch

[garyS-NJ]

I'll probably do the chem dip and maybe as you suggest heat the simple green. I'm sure the carbs will clean out fine. as for the sniff, somewhere I learned that rather then sniff, it's better to fan some fumes your way for a wiff. I know it's not good but can't compare to working in a lab or a shop. And Yea Steve, I love TSP.

[Patch]

That's up to you, they really aren't viable outside of the caps.

 

Fanning is correct, labeling is better;)