Run for it, it's the COPs!

[cimmer]

I installed the COP on my 89 last year and have not regretted it once. The bike is starting easier and just run better all around. I did not install the load resistors as I have the Ignitech system to install on the bike but with the stock TCI, no issues to report. I have future plans to remove the coil and TCI bracket and move my AGM battery to that location. I also keep the air defectors about the cylinder heads and made some holes in them to hold the COP in place so they wouldnt move around.

Good luck.

Rick F.

[Black wing]

do you know if the guy who made the kit in the first post is still making these kits? ide love to get a set or two

[syscrusher]

do you know if the guy who made the kit in the first post is still making these kits? ide love to get a set or two

 

Happy to be able to be of assistance. The Kit pictured in the first post looks expensive. This is the definitive thread concerning COPs though. Dingy is very helpful starting in post #9 with specs for the coils to use. In another post in another thread he says that it's from a CBR1000R anywhere from 2004 to 2007. Coils from later years are different. They could work, I haven't seen where anyone has tried them. In post #13 , Cimmer gives a list of parts with active links. You'll need four each of the first and second items linked to there. You'll wire up four assemblies that each have just two wires, one assembly for each COP. What could be easier? The "yellow" connectors are expected to plug right in where your coils do now and the black end plugs into the COP. It would cost you around $28 for those parts shipped in the US but in Alberta you can probably expect to pay more for the shipping/duties part. If you don't think you can make the connectors yourself you can surely find someone there to make them for you. Since you have a 1986 you'll need load resistors or the Ignitech TCI or you'll fry the old style TCI with these low resistance coils.

 

Clear enough?

Edited July 17, 2016 by syscrusher
second not third

[Black wing]

i have a 91' vr with the ignitech. but this winter i am doing a huge engine build with full vmax kit and im looking for the best kit even if its a bit more expensive and the kit from the first post looks to be the most sure fire kit to work

[ChurchBuilder]

I have a '84 Venture. What resistor and where would I pit it (them)?

 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[syscrusher]

I have a '84 Venture. What resistor and where would I pit it (them)?

 

In another thread Cimmer suggests this resistor that should do it:

 

"For the resistor, I located a 1.2 ohm, 50W wirewound power resistor."

 

Mouser has these, which should be wired in series with the coil to add an additional 1.2 ohms of resistance. They're about $5.50 each and are physically large to dissipate heat:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/RH0501R200FE02/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtbXrIkmrvidDNaDpN5VXc5wCV3RgeKB2c%3d

You're getting about the same amount of resistance from the COP and so together it's around 3 ohms. 12v/3 ohms = 4 amps and 4A x 12v = 48W for DC but the coils each fire 25% of the time so the power rating could be lowered a little to reflect that. The coils also only have a charge on the primaries for a fraction of the time prior to firing, called the dwell but I don't really have a good sense of exactly what the duty cycle calculation would be for the momentary conduction of 4 amps. Could be that you could use a smaller unit but I can't tell you which. Funny thing, we were watching the original Ghost Busters movie tonight and the high-tech looking "trap" they use to catch ghosts in has one of these resistors mounted on the side in a gold color, for looks.

 

I tried reading up on the issue of dwell and what I found makes me want to say that you don't want to add resistors but that the minimum requirements to use COPs should be the Ignitech TCI or a 1990+ stock TCI. The reasoning behind this is that the intensity of spark that you will get is directly related to the number of amps sourced into the coil primary and the speed with which the coil can be charged (dwell). You will add a resistor to the coil lead out of an understanding that your older TCI can't source a higher current and/or do so quickly. The resistor limits the current to protect your old TCI but also limits the performance you will get with the COPs. If you're going to go to this amount of trouble then do it right the whole way through.

 

Here, read this explanation of what I'm suggesting you should be concerned about:

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Ignition-coil-dwell-time&A=113140

[Flyinfool]

Based on the description of the resistor that came with the Kit it was probably a 10 Watt. If the Dwell is around 40° (I'm guessing but, probably less) that makes for a 11.1% duty cycle. So if there is good airflow over the resistor a 5 watt could get it done 10 to be sure and have a safety margin.

 

OK, so I know just enough about electronics to be dangerous, but I am far from an expert.

 

Per the service manual, the stock coils have a resistance between 2.4 and 3.0 ohms. This means that the TCI must sink between 4.7 to 5.8 amps. (you need to do the math at 14 Volts not 12V since 14 is normal when the bike is running).

From what I can determine only from reading some of the threads, the COPs are around 1.5 to 1.8 ohms. This means a current of 7.8 to 9.3 Amps

First thought is has anyone looked inside of the TCI to see what transistors they are using to switch the coils? Could they be replaced with a more modern transistor that can handle the 10 amps. Maybe change to a MOSFET without to much redesign of the board? A more modern transistor may actually produce less heat that what is in there, even at the higher amps.

 

Second option would be to make up a simple circuit with a power transistor that is driven by the output signal of the TCI to handle the actual load current of the COPs? I think this could be done fairly inexpensively? This would end up retarding the timing by around 0.06 degrees, not enough to matter.

 

Option 3 is to spend the bux for a new different TCI.

[syscrusher]

Second option would be to make up a simple circuit with a power transistor that is driven by the output signal of the TCI to handle the actual load current of the COPs? I think this could be done fairly inexpensively? This would end up retarding the timing by around 0.06 degrees, not enough to matter.

 

Option 3 is to spend the bux for a new different TCI.

 

Thanks for working through the calculations. I quoted your second option because it's sort of similar to the suggestion from the link I had attached for using a closed loop ignition module that is specialized to control for varying factors while optimizing the output pulse. What you had in mind may be less expensive than a closed loop module but I'll suggest even then that after one buys the parts and pays oneself for their time investment it's probably very cost effective to just get the Ignitech and be done with it, or tinker in the Ignitech software rather than added hardware if tinker you must. When adding hardware you need enclosures, wiring, and a place to put it all. For what, all to continue using an older model TCI that is pretty limited and failure prone?

 

"Controlling dwell Two different dwell control methods are used by aftermarket ECUs. These are:

1. Using a modern ‘closed loop’ electronic ignition module (no ECU dwell map)

2. Mapped dwell (ECU has control over dwell)

1. Closed loop ignition module

 

http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1131/113140_12lo.jpg

Common ignition modules such as the Bosch BIM 137 (008), BIM 024 (021) units and Ford TFI have sophisticated closed loop control of dwell. These modules monitor the coil current and adjust the dwell to ensure the target level is always reached - about 7 amps is usual. This approach caters for varying RPM, temperature, voltage, coil tolerances, etc.

Should the current rise above the target, then the module’s transistor will partially turn off to limit the current. When viewing the current trace, this can be seen as a ‘flat’ section on the top of the pulse.

 

 

http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1131/113140_3lo.jpg

This graph shows shows BIM 024 current limiting, normal at low RPM.

These modules are often used in aftermarket applications as they are very simple to set up (no dwell mapping required) and are readily available. They are a good choice if your ECU has limited control ability or you lack the coil dwell data or equipment you need to test the requirements yourself.

When using closed loop ignition modules:

 

• Use coils that are compatible with the module (eg Bosch BIM 137 module works well with Bosch HEC715 or HEC716 coil).
  

 

• Do not use an inductive sensor triggered type modules (like BIM 024) with your ECU. Internally, these modules use the slope of the sensor input signal in their dwell setting process and if triggered with a square wave, they will not have dwell control available. Only use modules from Hall Effect systems (eg BIM 137).
  

 

• The Hall Effect triggered module type internally converts the square wave input signal (from your ECU now) into a saw tooth voltage and uses this new sloping signal in their dwell setting process. The amount they can adjust their dwell will be restricted If you do not give them a long enough pulse.
  

The downsides of using full closed loop ignition modules in an aftermarket system are that:

 

• You can’t alter the coil current limit if your application requires this.
  

 

• Dwell control at very low coil firing rates (eg an engine with one coil/module per cylinder at idle speed) may be outside its ability and so dwell is often way too long. Coil destruction results. The solution may be an aftermarket alternative such as those from M&W ignitions.
  

 

• Expensive if you need multiple units (eg an engine with one coil/module per cylinder)"
  

[Flyinfool]

I guess a lot has to do with your circumstance of the moment.

 

IF you going COP because one or more of the stock coils has failed and you need to get running and willing to "upgrade in the process" but funds may still be an issue? This is a good reason to try to make the stock TCI work.

 

Are you going COP just because you can and money is no object? Then replace the TCI at the same time as the COP.

[ChurchBuilder]

My 84 coils are good and I have a set from an 83 too so I'm not needing to change soon. I have a Vmax that I will be changing because a set of plug wires is almost as much as COPS. I found connectors for a Ford V8 so I bought 8. Now I have 4 extras! Sounds like I should keep my coils and spares instead of risking my TCI.

 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[syscrusher]

I guess a lot has to do with your circumstance of the moment.

 

IF you going COP because one or more of the stock coils has failed and you need to get running and willing to "upgrade in the process" but funds may still be an issue? This is a good reason to try to make the stock TCI work.

 

Are you going COP just because you can and money is no object? Then replace the TCI at the same time as the COP.

 

Personally, I'm upgrading because I have to take off the front cowling anyway and so it seems like it would be a missed opportunity if I didn't do it. I'm expecting better performance from eliminating the high voltage plug wires and getting ahead of coils that may become marginal and be a huge PITA to get at later on. I've got the later model TCI so it's just the cost of COPs and connectors for me.

 

It's possible that it would be a cost effective route to go if your gen 1.1 shows coil failure and you don't mind wiring up a current limiter or a better current source. With the current limiting, Dingy had talked about some VMaxxers closing the plug gaps in order to still have a reliable spark, albeit not a powerful spark. Not so many people would be up to the challenge of putting together power transistors with the necessary biasing circuits and components on a board with heat sinks and a waterproof enclosure in some mounting point to use with the older TCI but it might be just the thing for some folks. I just saw a 1990 TCI on Ebay that they were asking $300 for with economy shipping from Romania for another $50 so I guess there's money to be saved.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XVZ1300-Venture-Royale-Good-Ignition-TCI-CDI-1990-/301992130866?hash=item4650223932:g:6QsAAOSwBPNXSi6M&vxp=mtr

 

Isn't the Ignitech going for around $200 still? I notice threads indicating that Dingy isn't selling kits anymore. I haven't looked at the full list of accessories needed but THIS LIST says the full unit is $149 USD, plus shipping, plus VAT, plus accessories, etc.....

[NewbeeMC9]

Personally, I'm upgrading because I have to take off the front cowling anyway and so it seems like it would be a missed opportunity if I didn't do it. I'm expecting better performance from eliminating the high voltage plug wires and getting ahead of coils that may become marginal and be a huge PITA to get at later on. I've got the later model TCI so it's just the cost of COPs and connectors for me.

 

It's possible that it would be a cost effective route to go if your gen 1.1 shows coil failure and you don't mind wiring up a current limiter or a better current source. With the current limiting, Dingy had talked about some VMaxxers closing the plug gaps in order to still have a reliable spark, albeit not a powerful spark. Not so many people would be up to the challenge of putting together power transistors with the necessary biasing circuits and components on a board with heat sinks and a waterproof enclosure in some mounting point to use with the older TCI but it might be just the thing for some folks. I just saw a 1990 TCI on Ebay that they were asking $300 for with economy shipping from Romania for another $50 so I guess there's money to be saved.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XVZ1300-Venture-Royale-Good-Ignition-TCI-CDI-1990-/301992130866?hash=item4650223932:g:6QsAAOSwBPNXSi6M&vxp=mtr

 

Isn't the Ignitech going for around $200 still? I notice threads indicating that Dingy isn't selling kits anymore. I haven't looked at the full list of accessories needed but THIS LIST says the full unit is $149 USD, plus shipping, plus VAT, plus accessories, etc.....

 

 

Looks like the 90 will plug into an 89. Will it plug and play? Or are there more mods?

 

And the Ignitech, is the the TCIP4 full version?

[syscrusher]

Plug and play for Ventures from 1986 through 1993, pretty sure. I know next to nothing about the Ignitech and the extras required, but I would think that your money is better spent there and not the $350 late model TCI. Maybe someone with knowledge will join in.

 

I see that you posed some Ignitech questions back in May. Just using "Ignitech" as a search string in this forum will get you lots of content to peruse, but I found you this very large thread:

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?40414-Aftermarket-TCI-available!&highlight=ignitech

 

[syscrusher]

Plug and play for Ventures from 1986 through 1993, pretty sure.

 

I changed my mind. My answer now is that it's not P&P because the 1990 used just a single sensor while the 1989 used two. I don't know more than that about it but the thread linked above is mainly about making the Ignitech work with pre 1990 VRs.

 

"In '90 they changed to a single timing pickup. '89 and prior had a double...

26H-81670-10-00 1989

3UF-81670-00-00 1990

 

 

The TCI's also changed.

 

 

26H-82305-10-00 1983

41R-82305-11-00 1984-1989

3JJ- 82305-11-00 1990-1993

 

Last edited by Condor; 09-03-2009 at 03:23 PM. "

[syscrusher]

I've actually gotten around to working on this now. I was wondering what anyone has been doing to seal around the plug at the bottom the way the old plug wire boot did. I was thinking about whether I could transfer the rubber boot part between the two or if anyone has come up with a better idea?

 

I guess I'll finish up my wiring, make sure it works, and then do some experimenting.

[syscrusher]

So I actually did go and slip the old rubber boot bottoms over the top of the rubber pencil coil ends and that seems to provide a seal similar to what is available with the original leads. The automotive type of coil over plug arrangements typically use a bolt through the top to hold them in place, what about that? What about having one loosen up? What're you going to do about that?

[yamagrl]

Personally, I'm upgrading because I have to take off the front cowling anyway and so it seems like it would be a missed opportunity if I didn't do it. I'm expecting better performance from eliminating the high voltage plug wires and getting ahead of coils that may become marginal and be a huge PITA to get at later on. I've got the later model TCI so it's just the cost of COPs and connectors for me.

 

It's possible that it would be a cost effective route to go if your gen 1.1 shows coil failure and you don't mind wiring up a current limiter or a better current source. With the current limiting, Dingy had talked about some VMaxxers closing the plug gaps in order to still have a reliable spark, albeit not a powerful spark. Not so many people would be up to the challenge of putting together power transistors with the necessary biasing circuits and components on a board with heat sinks and a waterproof enclosure in some mounting point to use with the older TCI but it might be just the thing for some folks. I just saw a 1990 TCI on Ebay that they were asking $300 for with economy shipping from Romania for another $50 so I guess there's money to be saved.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-XVZ1300-Venture-Royale-Good-Ignition-TCI-CDI-1990-/301992130866?hash=item4650223932:g:6QsAAOSwBPNXSi6M&vxp=mtr

 

Isn't the Ignitech going for around $200 still? I notice threads indicating that Dingy isn't selling kits anymore. I haven't looked at the full list of accessories needed but THIS LIST says the full unit is $149 USD, plus shipping, plus VAT, plus accessories, etc.....

When Dingy was doing the TCIs he provided software for the 83-89 and software for the 90-93.

 

I have the files if you need them.

[KISA]

The bad idea to combine COP and drain TCI. Even having set additional resistors.

Time of a charge of the drain coil of 8 ms, COP - 4 ms. Remained 4ms will heat the output transistor. COP - only for Ignitech)

[syscrusher]

The bad idea to combine COP and drain TCI. Even having set additional resistors.

Time of a charge of the drain coil of 8 ms, COP - 4 ms. Remained 4ms will heat the output transistor. COP - only for Ignitech)

 

Thanks for your warning. The 1990 thru 1993 are said to work like IgniTech on output, is this not true as you know it?

[KISA]

Since 1990 digital TCI was established. Probably, he is steadier against loadings. At least for the last 3 years any digital TCI hasn't broken.

[CaseyJ955]

Let me kick this valuable thread in the pants and put my hat in the right of COPs DIYers.

 

I bought a set of plug-n-play COPs for my Vmax, they worked great but there were two things about said COP kit I did not care for.

1. They were assembled using crimps, I once put a whole day on 3 cyl and finally found that one of those crimps had lost it's grip on the wire and disassembled itself.

 

2. The sheath used is that rigid thick split sheath which made install awkward and it looks funky.

 

I went to do the COPs for my Venture and felt it was easy enough that I could do it myself. My scoot is an 89 but I have an Ignitek going in too so I'm not going to use the resistors I bought when I first decided to do this.

 

I'm into this for maybe $25 and 90 minutes, I took my time and got OCD about fit/finish. I have my carb and TCI/coil rack off the bike now so I did some loose measurements and decided that they could be a little too long rather than a too short. I'm going 14" front and 26" rear which is probably a few inches excessive but with the bike torn down it's hard to get an exact route.

 

I started by hitting Ebay and buying 4 COPs and a factory COP harness off an early 2000s CBR600. $15.90 shipped. Since it came with the harness I disassembled said harness and harvested the COP plugs with around 8" of wire on each and discarded the rest. When I removed the OEM coils from my Venture I harvested the OEM pigtails off of them but only around 2" of wire on those. I reached into my massive box of surplus wire and found some bulk that would be enough to do the whole job. I then went to the local electronics warehouse and bought a 4' stick of 1/8" heat shrink tube and cut it into 16 ~1" lengths for this project with plenty to spare. Also picked up 10' of 1/4" black nylon braided sleeving since it's flexable, durable and it looks good. Of course I already have my soldering iron and supplies. Thats all I needed to buy and all it cost. Dingy clarified above the polarity of the COP and on my bike the red/white wires were + and the orange was - on the coil pigtails. I soldiered and heat shrunk the joints so that they would not corrode or come apart and inched the sheathing over it. If you compress the sheathing the ID expands greatly allowing it to be inched over the harness and compressed enough that the far ends can be soldiered on and the sheathing can than be stretched back over the whole thing. Of course when I install them on the bike I'll use a dab of dielectric grease on the terminals. I did also use a little bit of 3M electrical tape on the ends to keep the sheathing from fraying. Pics for your viewing pleasure