Run for it, it's the COPs!

[flyday58]

Got my new COPs and harnesses today from the guy over on the V-Max forums that makes the harnesses. Install will have to wait as the Venture will be on a trailer tomorrow headed to New Mexico and our new home. But I'm excited to get them. Also sending my seat to Rich's Custom Seats for a recover job. Should be a fun summer!

Edited May 4, 2015 by flyday58
forgot the pic!

[Pegasus1300]

OK I'll bite what are COPS

[flyday58]

Coil over plug ignition coils. They will replace my OEM coils which have cracks, corrosion, and ugly leads and plug caps. Dingy I know has done this mod, and I think it's popular on the V-Maxs, too.

[ragtop69gs]

If you don't mind me asking, how much does it cost to do this conversion?

[Prairiehammer]

If you don't mind me asking, how much does it cost to do this conversion?

 

And what C.O.P. (bike model) did you end up using?

[flyday58]

The guy I got this from hired an electrical engineer to choose the the coils. They're Denso is all he'll say.

 

As far as cost, we're still working that part out but it should be reasonable. Really looking forward to installing them and see how they do.

[RedRider]

The guy I got this from hired an electrical engineer to choose the the coils. They're Denso is all he'll say.

 

As far as cost, we're still working that part out but it should be reasonable. Really looking forward to installing them and see how they do.

 

Are you doing this as a beta site? Or is it something proven with the VMax's?

 

Really interesting option if it is proven to work and doesn't cost more than some of these old washing machines (1st Gens). Please keep us up to date on your progress.

 

RR

[Flyinfool]

This does sound interesting, It will be interesting to know how this all works out in both price and performance. I will need new spark plug wires soon.

 

OLD WASHING MACHINES????

 

Does that mean that old obsolete 2nd gen of yours is all washed up now from the effluent of these old washing machines........

[dingy]

I have been running COP's on Tweety for 2 or 3 years now.

 

On the 83-89 MKI's there needs to be a resistor installed in the circuit feeding the coils. Reason behind this is that stock coils are in the 2.4~3.0 ohm range on the primary side. Cop's are under 2 ohms in general. This lower resistance allows more current flow through the primary circuit, which has been known to burn up stock TCI's in some cases. The 90-93 MKII's have a better digital TCI and thus much better at handling the increased load. The Ignitech aftermarket TCI has a setting in it which compensates for the different coil resistance.

 

The VMax member that is the resident guru on he COP's system won't disclose the exact ohm & wattage of the resistor that he uses. I know it is a ceramic unit that will dissipate the heat it generates. Ohms would be near 1 ohm, but wattage he uses I don't know. He sells kits for installation on the VMax's and would probably supply sets for Ventures. Lead length is different as VMax's have rear coils mounted in back. Very good & honest person to deal with. I do not know pricing of kits.

 

COP's in general are a fairly easy install. The coil is about 1" in diameter and about 6" long. Length of coil is important as there are clearance issues with some of the longer variants. Correct polarity connections to the coils is critical.

 

Both sets I use have come from Honda CBR's, 2006 & 2007 years. They are Denso coils. Pictures attached. When buying the coils, it is important to also get the sub harness that has the special connectors that mate to the coils. Connection to wire harness is made at the yellow connector for each coil. Both sets I have bought on Ebay, with harness have been less than $50. Stock coils can remain in place on bike. Rack coils are mounted to also holds TCI & vacuum sensor so it must remain if using stock TCI in original location.

 

One drawback to COP's that would be of little significance to Venture owners, but annoys the VMax guys is that a traditional timing light doesn't work with them. This is significant when dyno testing as RPM indication is typically taken with a clamp sensor around the spark plug wire. There are options though to circumvent this issue.

 

I don't have a CB or intercom system on Tweety, so I do not have any input on interference differences when using COP's.

 

I have been very satisfied with COP's on Tweety, which has Ignitech TCI. I am using NGK Iridium plugs gapped at .032". The Hybrid (Sylvester) also has COP's but has not been started yet. Will be near identical setup to Tweety, so there should not be any difference.

 

Last 2 pictures are of COP's on Sylvester's 1st gen motor in a 2nd gen frame.

 

Gary

Edited May 6, 2015 by dingy

[flyday58]

Great info, Gary. I am working with our Vmax friend to come up with an installation manual with plenty of pics for Venturers who want to do this mod. He includes his own new harnesses so that will be part of the deal, making sure lengths and polarity are correct. I purchased the Ignitech from someone here on the site, no idea who , so I don't have to worry about the resistor part of it.

 

Once I have everything like he wants on the manual he plans to offer the kits here on the Venture forum to interested members. He's sending me his Vmax manual to help me get the Venture manual like he wants it. So I guess that makes me the Venture beta guy on this upgrade.

 

Bike left today for New Mexico:bawling:, so it will be a little bit before I can get around to the installation. I will update when I do. Stay tuned.

[BratmanXj]

I did a Coil-On-Plug swap to my last bike ('97 C10 Kawasaki Concours) as my stock coils were starting to develop cracks and minor Hot-Humid weather miss-fires. As Gary stated I found coils with the harness on eBay for under $50 from a mid-2000's sport bike, I think mine were Suzuki GSXR Denso coils and built my own sub-harness for the bike using a flat-4 trailer plug to join into the bike's stock coil wires. The Concours design was from the Mid-80's and the architecture was the same across a lot of different bikes so there was MANY examples of guys building the harness.

 

Gary, from your explanation its only the MkI that need the resistor "buffer" and not the MkII or the 2nd Gen?

[dingy]

 

Gary, from your explanation its only the MkI that need the resistor "buffer" and not the MkII or the 2nd Gen?

 

That opinion is what is prevalent on the VMax site. It is not a sure thing that the 83-89 TCI will fail without resistors, there are some that have said they have not had a problem.

 

My concern with the resistors is that it seems some that are using them state that the gap plugs in .026" range. This then IMO degrades the intensity of the spark. They probably are narrowing gap in order to get plug to spark with reduced current in coils.

 

Within the last month I have worked with a user of the Ignitech TCI and recommended he change a setting in TCI to compensate for the lower coil ohms. He had been running resistors in the coils due to a carryover from his stock TCI. He did this and then gapped plugs to .032 and said bike is starting much better. than it was with narrower gap.

 

I have not heard of anyone using COP's on a 2nd gen. Probably has been done though. I am sure that they will fit in heads with chrome covers on, see prior picture of Sylvester in post #9 of this thread. Heads on motor are VMax with chrome RSV covers installed. There is a set of RSV valve covers on heads that allow use of chrome covers, so I am sure geometry is same between 1st gen & RSV heads.

 

Gary

Edited May 6, 2015 by dingy

[cimmer]

I been doing some researching and have located these new items that should work. I didn't want to cut up my stock coil connectors so I located parts to build my own harness for the COPs. I have the Ignitech TCI that I am installing along with the COPs so I am not concerned about the resistors for the harness. I hope this helps out if anyone is going to build their own harness.

 

Here is the connector for the present coil connection:

http://www.corsa-technic.com/item.ph...category_id=57

 

For the Denso COP connection:

http://www.corsa-technic.com/item.ph...category_id=55

 

For the sleeving for the other shell:

http://www.corsa-technic.com/item.ph...category id=63

 

Rick F.

[dingy]

In some of my previous posts in this thread, I referred to possible failures of 83-85 TCI's without resistors installed in coil circuits. The TCI's that are a concern are actually 83-89 years. In 1990-1993, the digital TCI was used in the Ventures.

 

I have edited those posts to reflect correct information.

 

Gary

[syscrusher]

I have been running COP's on Tweety for 2 or 3 years now.

 

Gary

 

That plate around the right side cover in photo 4, izzit something you bought or did you make it? I want one.

[dingy]

That plate around the right side cover in photo 4, izzit something you bought or did you make it? I want one.

 

That's an aftermarket cover. One on both sides.

 

MarCarl had made some up a couple of years ago.

 

Gary

[Prairiehammer]

That plate around the right side cover in photo 4, izzit something you bought or did you make it? I want one.

 

Yamaha offered these "Accent Panels, crankcase" in the VentureLine accessories catalog. I've noted that they sell on eBay from $5 up to $80. There is currently a pair (two separate auctions) where the seller is wanting $20 each. They are not in good condition nor are they complete. If you buy any accent panels, make sure they are complete. The left side panel requires a bracket with spacers and longer bolts to be installed onto the middle gear.

[syscrusher]

Thanks for the info both of you. It looks like I missed out on the glory days of the Gen 1.

[cimmer]

The accent panels are the same between the MKI and MKII expect that the MKII has a notch cut out for the band on the bottom of the side panel. So a set off of a MKI will work on a MKII, just makes it hard to get the side cover off at times.

 

Rick F.

[jdross440]

I did the COP conversion on my 90 Wednesday. I used the connectors listed in post 13. Nice connectors. I crimped the wires in the terminals and then soldered them to make sure of a good connection. For wiring, I had some spare trailer light wiring (which is 18 ga 4 different colors) to use for the negatives. I used 18 ga black for the positives since they are common. On my COP's the positive and negative are opposite of that shown in the photo. When I started the bike cold, it seemed to fire off much quicker and ran smoother. Also it got rid of the spark pop in the headset. I still have hash that sounds like it's coming from the charging system. You can push down on eithr radio or intercom knob and turn it and it will go away and come back as you rotate. curing that will be my next project.

[KISA]

Установил cop. Без резисторов. Проехал 5000 км. Сгорели транзисторы в стоковом tci.

[flyday58]

Установил cop. Без резисторов. Проехал 5000 км. Сгорели транзисторы в стоковом tci.

What year? That seems to only happen with MKIs I think. Dingy knows more about it. The Ignitech unit he sells takes care of the problem.

 

Oh, 1986. Don't know if that's MKI or MKII.

Edited June 8, 2015 by flyday58
saw year model in heading

[KISA]

МК 2. С 1990 in MK2 install digital TCI. It is considered stronger. Only Ignitech with guarantee works with COP. Dyna 3000 burns instantly)

Edited June 8, 2015 by KISA

[jdross440]

From what I understand 1983-1989 require resistors for stock TCI, 90-up do not.

[syscrusher]

Throttle cable broke for me and so this upgrade is happening now too, since I have to remove all of that cowling stuff anyway.

 

Are we really pretty sure the 90 and later TCI will just work with COP and load resistors? I have a set of CBR1000R COPs on their way but I really don't want to make the bike less reliable by doing this. I suppose I'll relocate the TCI when I do this too so that I can get to it easier if I need to.

 

I thought it really sucked that so much stuff has to come off to replace throttle cable, a little bit of a mess to do roadside even if you have the cable with you. One nice thing, with the CV carbs you can use throttle stop screw, choke, and momentum to limp the bike along. It's a nightmare at stop lights like that with engine RPMs running wild but you can slow it up some braking in gear as you let it inch along. For this application it could easily have been engineered to make the junction box more accessible though. Number 3 cable is a poor design and a weak point.