Venture Royal refurbishing back to touring condition

[Patch]

Part 1 of 4 ?

Hi there, so this write-up is about our Venture Royal, the work behind it, what it took to not just get her back to running condition, but rather get her back to the responsive touring bike I’ve read (had yet to experience) she is!

First things I did was try to ready it the 1^st season for a short trip up and in BC with my boys. I went through the wiring one plug at a time; things seemed to be in pretty good shape! What I like about doing this with a “new to me bike” is that it formularises me with the systems and what might go wrong, where it is located and in a pinch if need be, I can sort through a problem quickly while on the road!

Next I move on to the brakes and suspension, here is some of what I did:

Drained ALL the hydraulic fluids- brakes, clutch, forks, and “fork air lines”

Chained out the front springs with some I had from another project

Changed the brake pads front and rear

Change the dif oil,

Changed steering stem bearings

Disassembled the air control panel, cleaned with contact chemical

Replaced burnt lights and fuses

Replaced the tires

Changed out the handle grips for 1” rubber/chrome type, I need the larger grips as my R/hand is a rebuilt unit. Some 30 years back I had a one on one with a hydrant;( You know they said it was my fault? Even though I assured them I wasn’t the fool that placed it there? Hydrants go on the inside of a bend! Not the outside of a bend!(

Lubed the drive shaft spline with synthetic grease- I have come to respect the synthetic grease for each application where grease is called for; it stays put, stays bright in color, resists washing out- even when exposed to solvents, and in my experience maintains a cooler bearing, and also important is that it remains consistent- I add it to all my replacement bearings with an epoxy syringe!

Took it for a ride, I found on the Mountain roads when the suspension was properly set and with 2 up and camping gear she could sweet talk a twist very well; however I was disappointed in the thrust!

 

SG/Patch's

[Patch]

part 2

 

2014 no time to ride or for projects, bummer.

 

This year after 4 projects rapped up this spring I pulled her in to the shop, here is what I found:

A persistent cough on #1

Dripping gas from the main (needle/emulsion tube) #1 & 4

#3 slide consistent pulse? At 950 RPM

Carb body very dirty

I pulled the plugs 1, 2, 4 were in decadent shape

#3 was nearly spotless?

Checked for spark, excellent?

Removed the carbs, a note that I know many of you know; remove the CPV hose completely, why fight or risk bending/cracking or breaking something you will only have to wait for in the mail. At the top of the carb is a small plate about 2 ½” X 1 ¼” with 4 screws I found this is easy to remove while the carbs are still secured, using an impact with a #2 Philips with the tip ground down OR a drywall Phillips bit works as well! Sliding the carbs out the left side you will have fair access to the linkage with a dental pick, at least this worked for me, I’m sure there are other ways.

I soaked the carbs in lamp oil over night, usually this helps loosen old screws as well as soften the scum up, and then I soak them in a warm bath for 30ish minutes. Presoaking for us in our little shop helps keep the bath clean with less junk to filter out or through parts, also means we heat the bath less, so less evap!

Anyways you’ll likely struggle with the bracket screws even with impact and #1 Phillips, be ready to drill, I use a punch type extractor, quick, easy and it’s a sure bet.

The carbs inside were much nicer than expected, clean blows, no real varnish, gates were nice, (one thing we see often with stock pump system, verses constant gravity) what I did find was the O-rings for the tubes were finished, AND a missing Piolet jet screw, on #3 ! Also #4 was 7 ½ turns out, yikes!

I replaced the O-rings and I had a set of piolets in stainless but the threads are shorter by a 1/3 so I replaced it and am waiting for new piolets!

The slides, well the pistons are very good so are the needles, the boots are worn; I am waiting for an email regarding re-stocking I will replace all 4. In the meantime I patched them using ½’ X ¼” patches from my shop gloves; they work well for this with a thin coat of liquid gasket, the patch is placed on the outside of the boot and the liquid gasket is place on both sides, I’ve done this many times, never a failure –BUT the boots are old and tend to be slower, so, while many won’t notice this- it is still in play and will make a difference when cracking the whip!

While the carbs were soaking I did the compression checks, here’s what I found:

#1 = 150 not terrible and hopefully the worst of it

#2 = 120 ok I have to admit I was feeling sheepish around about then

#3 = 60 that’s sixty!

Going to stop the ride for a minute; I want to stress this point with the hopeful members. It is far better to know this then not to know: only hover over a bike wondering why the heck you can’t keep up, hard to start, slow to get on her legs, can’t use 5^th, and your gas mileage is pretty OK but it reeks!

Here’s my trip, compression is a must- no doubt we need to keep this up –BUT compressing is nothing without the resulting LOW PRESSURE!

Throttle response is all important, it will bear you down into a twisty, tweaking it through it will help you maintain knee drag, it will quickly lift you up and out of a twist, it will pull you through the buffering of a semi, up a hill, the only thing more important than throttle response, other than common-sense are properly working brakes! Let’s remember bike are sport machines they need to be run within design limits, period!

#4 190

Because I have and use the shop manual I can clearly see the picture for this engine. I have only one cylinder within spec. Would any of you like to take a stab at which one it is and why, regardless of how many post go by? I think if you are willing to then you will gain from the mechanics here as they chime in with their experiences at the end!

 

 

Sorry thought I had uploaded pics from my phone.... I'll add the patched boots tonight!

Edited May 3, 2015 by Patch

[bongobobny]

OK, one thing to mention, the phillips screws on our metric bikes are JIS, NOT SAE. Using the wrong type phillips damages the screws big time.

 

Wasn't aware if you knew this so I thought I'd mention it...

[cimmer]

I picked up a set of JIS and it does make a big difference on working on the bike as it doesnt damage the screw heads. I even taken to using them on phillips screws that give me a hard time getting loose. I would highly recommend anyone working on their bikes to get a set.

Rick F.

 

 

OK, one thing to mention, the phillips screws on our metric bikes are JIS, NOT SAE. Using the wrong type phillips damages the screws big time.

 

Wasn't aware if you knew this so I thought I'd mention it...

[dingy]

#4 cylinder is within spec, but it is possibly due to carbon build up on the piston that is getting it that high.

 

170~180 is more in the normal range that I have seen. The 1300 that is in my 83 has VMax heads on it and block has been milled .040". It was in the 200 range when motor was rebuilt. I would imagine it would test around 190 now after 3 years on it.

 

Other three cylinders have one or more of several possible issues. Again, carbon build up may be keeping valves from fully seating, worn or froze rings, out of spec valve clearance, or worn pistons (rare on these motors), Abrasions on cylinder walls.

 

Did you put oil in cylinders to see if that changed compression readings? SM says a few drops, that to me is way to little to make any difference. More like a teaspoon. Intent is to coat cylinder walls to see if rings are culprit, couple of drops won't do that. Did you have throttle wide open. Was motor warm?

 

Thread below would be nice for you to do if you want technical information on your bike. The 1200 & 1300 motors are very similar but have some differences along the lines of your inquiries.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?90684-Help-us-to-Help-you-with-your-bike-info-in-your-header-updated-to-new-forum

 

Gary

[Patch]

Part 3

 

Ok I have been through this many times and know what to do and want to share this with you! The 1^st time I did this, I was 15, was on my Norton there have been many projects since those innocent days;)

Time to soak the top ends, it’s that simple! Do this to your bike after a long storage as part of the process of getting the Bike’s back into proper shape, it will go a long ways to bringing back the power.

The 1^st soak for me is always Kerosene/lamp oil, let it soak for 12ish hours, after 4 hours just give it a quick blip with the starter, ZERO ROTATION: the idea is to crack it or shock it, so the fluid will continue to penetrate! Here is how the process goes:

Also and throughout this I fill the intake ports- each soak includes these ports, very important!

Remove spark plugs; do not re-install them at anytime - while you have – fluids - above a piston, never!!

Using a funnel poor in the Kerosene one third -1/3- of a cup into each cylinder!

Likely after 12 hours the fluid has seeped past and is now in the oil pan; if not, you can choose to blow it out or rotate the engine and it will pump out, catch it with rags!

Using the starter you can now rotate the engine 4 or 5 time: no spark plugs install the cylinders they are free to vent!

Now at this point I use Deep Creep, what a good versatile product this stuff has turned out to be!

I spray for 4 seconds into each cylinder through the spark port, usually after 2 hours of soak this fluid creeps down.

Now you are ready for another compression check, here’s how mine went:

#1 = 230 I have a picture of the gauge I used below, this is why we never install a spark plug when soaking an engine!

#2 = 230

#3 =160 better but not accurate yet also just being stubborn!

#4 = 170 perfect and standard

I installed the carbs after a bench sync

I blew out #s 1,2,4 checked for fluid in #3 using a red 1/8 vacuum house, and just the bottom of the hose appeared wet; there was NO measurable level of fluid in #3 !

I brushed the plugs clean and ran it for 10 minutes @1000 rpm to raise engine temperature, pulled all the plugs again then gave them all another 4 second spurt of deep creep and let it sit overnight.

Thursday morning I blew them all out did a compression check, and they were standard on 1, 2, 4, 160 still on #3 , bummer!

Once again I installed the plugs and let it run for 10 minutes @1000 rpm except I let it cool for 20 minutes I ran it again for 20 minutes then pulled #3 plug let it soak for another 30 minutes with Deep Creep and then blew it out installed the plug and ran it again, this time till the cooling fan came on, I shut it off turn the shop fan on to cool it, pulled the plug checked the compression, and bingo #3 170 standard you can see the pic below however it caught the flash so... but it’s there!

SG/Patch's

[Patch]

part 4/4

So not much left to do at this point except play time with my carbs!

You can see below in the pics my carb tuning, the results are “funtastic” because- bringing these old bikes back is fun and also rewarding! One of the pics will be hard to read, it is a scope or dynamic mode of the combustion cycle base on manifold pressures, all I can say is that its as good as I’ve seen on any engine in a long time, very pleased! The other you see the spread on the sync, what you don’t see is I had to switch to 2-20 cmHg just to find them, then the final set was upscale 20-40 I think standard is 33?

Anyways I traded sync low for 3000 RPM, overall this works best for me, at idle they are very close even cold, even with enricher slightly on. I am prone to WOT when cracking the whip, so a low sync for me is .......!

Earlier I mentioned compression means nothing without the low pressure, I’d like to share this with you folks. Of course mechanics understand this but tuners live this, there is no tuning without balance, without balance an engine is a put-put (not sure that English)!

Combustion: pressure, seating, heat, duration(s), timing(s), velocity, these are what I was after, this is what was corrected! So how or why does a simple yet time consuming soak address these issues most, don’t understand? It’s pretty simple and I will stay as short as I can:

1^st the rings, they are actually spring rings and they float, they also need to rotate, how about cupping; an engine not properly stored will develop “stuck ring” issues! It will free itself! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that? It may eventually, who knows, what we do know is that it’s not springing, not rotating and it certainly can’t cup or expand (design dependent) to lock in compression. Also it is not symmetrical as it travels up and the walls, so we are effectively wearing the wall out of cylindrical!

2^nd valve seats, some of them have been clamped shoot for X years, they develop mild corrosion preventing proper seating, again you won’t be able to achieve good compression! Yet there is more to it, compression will slip past a seat when it builds to its near maximum, this means it moving fast,- up and out the wrong way, and when it is not suppose to move at all it stay put, squished tight in the combustion chamber, with resulting compression heat till ignition; now it moving past where it knocks against the throttle plate! Older Suzi’s cough when they are cold its excepted and understood, my bike was coughing warm at idle and it was steady and for the most part only on #1 ! There is no more cough, cold or warm, box or no box, period!

3^rd we need velocity, that is why valve timing and duration is such that the valve opens after TDC.

An engine will burn fuel even at 120 or 100 PSI With enough force to cycle the piston stroke, but it cannot do so efficiently with a CV carb; it will also negate most of the vortex, so mixing at or for “stoichi”, forget about it, it’s a put-put not a sports machine!

My Venture is a fun ride now, it moves quick now, engine braking is spot on smooth and sure footed!

Also I shifted into 5^th at a 100 KLm and though surprised to be there (in traffic) I was able to pull out and accelerate without shifting? Also I can start out in 2^nd it pulls out like my old 1^st did!!!

Please don’t read in to this as that, it is more than it was designed to be; I am merely saying overall I am happy with bringing it back to and experiencing the original specs!

I hope this helps some of you wanting the challenge of getting your old bike back up on her legs; my Venture was the 3^rd engine this year for us that went through this, the other, had even less millage then mine, one of which is a modified engine Suzi sport touring more R than F and a Suzi V twin. My Venture cost me this year, new oil and filter, I’ll also have 4 new boots whenever sock is available and 4 piolet screw, let’s say $160.00. Now bring this to a shop see what happens, most likely a chem down the tank?

 

 

Good luck with your project, if I can help, ask.

SG/Patch’s

[Patch]

Miscellaneous stuff: yes there usually is a cup or 2 or so- extra in the crankcase when I idle it during these test. It serves me to keep it in there; I will also run through all the gears usually twice during the warm ups.

 

Yes Fogging with Deep Creep can help avoid the above stuff if done yearly or regularly like before oil changes!

 

Will this fix worn rings, or pitted valve seats? No it won’t.

 

Can carbs sync to out of spec cylinders, won’t they work fine? Yes you can sync them, providing the carbs are in good working order and there is enough vacuum pressure at the range you are looking to sync them to. “Will they work fine” Can you be more specific please? LOL

 

So as I mentioned this is for the good but neglected bike engine, regardless of size or brand name.

 

If I had to choose between 150 or 190 PSI on this bike, I would choose 150 PSI.

 

Standard on this engine is 171 PSI

Limit is 143 PSI Think about it, that's a high limit for a minimum operation

Maximum 199 PSI #4 was close because of what I found in part one

 

How did I know I could achieve these results? There are clues we find, we mix with past experience, and we go for it! The results will vary engine to engine; beating the minimums should be the goal. How many times have you heard "I would be caught dead riding a motorcycle, to dangerous" yet we do, it is our sport, well this is another side to this sport!

 

Bummer I forgot to mention the first ride: expect smoke for the first 20 minutes of highway, and the H/W is where you should run it for the first ride.

Also as early as possible run the bike in 2nd gear to 4000 RPM then close the throttle fast, do this about 3 times no need for higher RPM this will apply a solid pressure action on the rings, as they are still damp from the soak they will likely displace carbon from the piston lands; best to do this right out of the barn!

SG/Patch's

 

This is a very pleasant forum by the way, I read till the wee hours yesterday, well managed and well supported! Old bikes need there forums to keep them up and running...

Edited May 3, 2015 by Patch

[Patch]

Thanks Gary I followed through updating my profile, also Gary I read up in the site library came across you switch right ups well done, wish I'd known of them 2 years ago on my first time in them! Back on them as of yesterday as my cruise slide isn't as smooth operating as I'd like it.

 

I agree with #4 , also I'll admit both my son and I were embarrassed by the results of this years engine tests results, and some of our comments made after taking the few rides we had her on! Really not like us to run our sport toys 1/2 up.

 

So now after a couple hundred clicks (Canadian term for distance traveled in KLM) I am going through the bike again sorting through some miscellaneous stuff!

I reset my carbs yesterday and managed to get the pilots sweet spots dialed in, also temp checked the pipes at the castings, always same spot all the way round, all withing 12* F, 208- 220 F, paying close attention to maintaining 1/3 up on the dash temp gauge, just as a bench mark eq results!

Edit: I could eq the heat ranges before at all

 

The sync had changed as expected! The engine now is as smooth, more smooth then I could have imagined, it's also quiet, all the way through, I love that, not a tap or stumble out of place! So worth the effort we spent on her, sorry but just got to say a real "Yah Baby" moment:)

 

Out here we have in rural districts with H/W lights for bedroom community traffic, man can she ever leave a light behind for a large class tour er. Surprised my son as we never pull against each other (that would be bad parenting;)) he must of thought there was a semi comin up behind him when I let loose; he headed straight for the shoulder as I blew past! still LMAO

 

Also I have to say at 950 we can here her silent power as she rolls through her cam lift, pretty nice setup Yamaha!

 

I have had some time to experience the mod made to the windscreen, 1st there is almost no glare on the dash now, 2nd like the breeze and, I can easily cruise with my visor up at 130 no problem, most of the lift is still in play! You might not expect this but the blacked out area presents a subtle view from my riding position; all in all it worked out!

 

Going to bite the bullet and re-solder the air control IC and this year started the fuel empty error.

 

Patch

Edited May 6, 2015 by Patch