Picking up the bikes!

[moto_boy]

Well

The other thread was meant to be a hello that turned into more.

So I thought I would start a new thread.

 

I am off to pick up my bikes.

 

Stay tuned.[ATTACH=CONFIG]99070[/ATTACH]

[flyday58]

Most states you go to jail for "stealing" motorcycles like this for 500 bucks! Keep the pics coming, we want to see evey detail of your adVenture x 2.

[moto_boy]

First impressions,

Well didn't have time to do much , sunny day with kids.

 

Here is what I did find.

The brown bike, we will call Royale. The one with water in the carbs(prior owner removed air filter let out in rain )don't get me started.

 

Removed the carbs, vacuumed out the intakes with a vac-small hose attachment.

One of the intake boots was bad and broke-separated from head instead of carb.

Carbs were I would say toast , need rebuild.

I removed the plugs and sprayed lube down each cylinder and down the intakes

Tank looks good no visible rust.

Oil in the glass view, doesn't look grey or wet. I am thinking water stayed on top of the pistons.

I will drain oil tomorrow for closer inspection.

I am thinking I will leave lube down in the cylinders for a couple days for sure, maybe pour Some mystery oil in there and let it sit. And a can of seafoam in the gas tank.

 

Ok silver bike , we will call standard

So this bike the throttle snaps back great, looks like it has new plug wires , this is the bike that had carbs rebuilt and tune up.

But I took off the gas cap and I see visible corrosion . Ugh. Other bike good clean tank, but bad carbs, water.

Really!

Well any way I poured muric acid in the tank I am letting it sit. I will drain and flush.

 

So hear is my question.

I like the fact that the Royale has onboard air etc. and like the paint colors- but is there really that much difference?

As I said the gas tank is clean , if the cylinders are ok , would you remove the carbs from the standard and build that bike.

 

Or would you swap the gas tank in to the standard leave e carbs on try seafoam -new gas and try and fire that up.

Looks like a pain to remove gas tanks!

 

My thought is to run a temp tank to the fuel pump and try and fire up standard and see how it runs, considering the carbs appear to be functional, why pull carbs maybe it will fire up.

 

But I am gonna need to get good carbs on royal to see if cylinders are good and motor condition.

 

Any thoughts?

[Flyinfool]

On Royal

I would start by draining oil first, there is a good chance there is water in it.

Once the oil is empty, just bump the starter a couple times to see if it is frozen or still free. Or pull the small round cover that is held on by 2 cross recess screws and use a 32mm socket to hand turn the engine. If it is frozen then odds are you need a whole new engine. If its not frozen then add oil and spin it up with the starter and no spark plugs just to get the oil circulating.

 

On standard

I would try to start it just to see where you are starting from. Even though the carbs were recently rebuilt, it was then allowed to sit and the carbs are likely gummed up. The gas that you will try starting it on should have a heavy dose of Seafoam, that will go a long way to cleaning out some gunk.

Start by draining the old gas out of the system. there is a drain screw on each carb that you can open to drain the float bowls. with those drains still open turn on the key and the fuel pump will run for about 2 seconds. You will need to cycle the power a few times to get all of the old gas out of the system and you new gas into the system. Close the carb drains and cycle power till you no longer hear the fuel pump clicking at power up. try to start it.

 

As for differences between the Standard and Royal.

As you already noted there is the CLASS air system, and the cassette deck. the standard does not have any audio system or intercom system at all. Many standards have after market audio systems added.

While the CLASS system is cool, it can only be adjusted with the engine turned off and the key in the Accy position. It is not very often that I have to adjust the air in my suspension and it only takes a minute with a small hand pump. The CLASS system is also a good source of headaches to keep it working between leaking seals and bad solder joints on the PC Board. All are easily fixable but just add one more thing to maintain.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Flyinfool

[Venturous Randy]

What you may find on the engine with the water is the crank may rotate about half to three quarters of a turn when using a socket under the small side cover. Where it stops is where the rust on the cylinder walls start. Once you get the plugs out and put some Seafoam or mystery oil in the cylinder, you can use the rings to scrape some of the rust off the walls.

I know this because I had to do this on a 30,000 mile engine that I put a 2nd gen transmission in and did not rotate the crank until I was finished with the trans swap. I will never do that again. When I get a chance, I need to do a compression check on this engine as it does not have the power that the 170,000 mile engine that I pulled out had.

Randy

[Patch]

Moto_Boy

 

Here's some experience you can use or leave where you found it.

 

1st thing I would do is except that one bike will be a parts bike "for now" you will still have the parts to refurb when the riding season is over!

 

I would start a log of which parts you are swapping over.

 

I WOULD NOT rotate a water logged engine, PERIOD! I would soak it with your choice of solvent, my choice would be 50/50 seafoam & kerosene! This will speed what the kerosene will do on its own but would take a longer time!

 

The rings will pay the price of working through cylinder wall corrosion, and you run the risk of packing the lands! You then will not be able to build compression!

 

Also after the carbs are off I would fill the intake pipes to soak the seats and valves rust will seal them and rotating the engine can bend the stems.

 

These projects move faster when we move slow and sure! Water in carbs equals water through and into cylinders!

 

My experience says soak for 4 to 6 days while you go through the bikes! Even if the engine was not seized I would still do the above.

 

Sg

[moto_boy]

Update

 

Brown bike.

Well I did soak the piston with mystery oil and intakes .

I let soak and worked the crank back and forth a few times and it broke free with a little resistance.

 

Not sure what that will do to rings, I mean unless you take head off and clean out your always going to have stuff in there , until it burns up or whatever, I would think.

 

I drained the oil, no water in the oil. I will take as picture tomorrow.

With the plugs removed and cylinders still with mystery oil, I covered up the plug holes with A rag and bumped the starter. Cranks over fine .

 

I then let the fuel pump flush all the gas out of tank.

And stopped there .

 

So to sum it up, cylinders free , starter works, with no load, I did not install plugs and try. Fuel pump works tank it empty.

Hopefully I didn't bend values or mess up rings.

 

Silver bike

Ok I removed plugs lubes cylinders with mystery oil,

Well this one needed a little rocking back and forth from crank too. I think just from sitting.

 

Cleaned out gas tank. Really wasn't that bad, it was mostly on top. I drained tank with fuel pump.

I removed the air cleaner-filter I lubed the slides, poured seafoam in carb, removed the carb bowl drain plugs.

I then cranked the starter over, and it turned freely.

I bumped the starter letting the cylinders clean out, re installed the plugs , and bowl drain screws.

I hooked a good tank with fresh gas up to the fuel pump. And let her rip.

At first it poured gas out the overflow hose in front of the carbs and cough and sputter through carbs

I removed plugs again and let it clean out . re-installed plugs, and tried to start again.

It cough and sputtered and fired up and I heard it run for about 15 sec, then died.

I tried to start again just bumping then starter but when try and start it for to longer than 3 or 4 specs the starter make noise, so I stopped, removed the plugs hit the starter and it will run continues with no noise?

 

Reinstalled plugs and tried almost fired up but carbs flooding and starter noise, I am wondering if its just because cylinders are getting full from not firing up. but I did unplug the fuel pump and crank the starter with no fuel in cylinders.

And still acted up if bumped starter to long. It Almost started again.

 

Are these bike only supposed to crank 3-4 turns and if they don't fire will the skater start missing?

 

Sum it up, motor free, fuel pump works, starter works with no load still works under load but doesn't catch every time.

Got it to run.

 

I could not get it to run again I thing its flooded and carb must be cleaned.

 

How hard is it to replace starter ?

 

My plan is to remove the carbs from the silver bike , remove the spark plugs, clean the carbs, install new plugs,

Run my temp gas tank with fuel pump. And see if it gives me a problem with starter with carbs cleaned.

 

I do think , I am just going to have to accept getting one bike up. Still not sure witch one.

Once the carbs are cleaned I know the silver bike will run I heard it and what I heard sounded good and I almost got it running but between the carbs flooding this only makes the starter have a hard time starting something that is having a hard time running.

I did not keep cranking the starter over and over just bumped until it made noise then stopped them bumped till it made noise stopped.

 

If it keeps it up with fresh gas- new plugs clean cars, then I can assume starter is bad or flywheel ?

I will try cleaned carb on the brown bike with new plugs and fresh gas and see if it will run.

 

Any thoughts

 

Ok just saw a post on starter gear- starter clutch

Does this sound like my problem .

I am using a smaller battery to start, but its a good battery.

Sorry form so much info!

Edited May 5, 2015 by moto_boy

[Patch]

Regarding the valves, either way you should do a compression test on both, and that could go a long ways in helping you decide which bike rides 1st!

 

I've never used mystery oil but have heard good things about it!For general knowledge it is best to soak contact points, valve seats rings have a long history of sticky shut. A valve seat has give or take a 1mm seat after cutting, then lapping then mileage, so the more seat the more stick, the more pressure to free it, that's where the stem can be most at risk. Also and again generally speaking seats are a softer material so usually there is a benefit to pre soaking them.

 

You'll know better after a compression test.

 

The starter suggest it's been through hell, the fact that it seems to work fine with no load means it time to pull it.

 

Still I wouldn't try starting either right now, if it were me:

 

I would pull both sets of carbs

pull both set of plugs

poor you mystery oil down through the intakes

let both soak for a day or so

check the brakes

clutch

lights

clean the electrical connections

see if the suspension airs up

clean one set of carb, the easy ones, get to know them

Then disconnect the small plug on the side of the frame bend, about 6" above the fuel pump, I think its a 4 wire???? you will need to cut the tie wrap then pinch it and separate it, now the pump is inactive.

 

Blow the cylinders out with compressed air and with WOT already there, because the carbs are bathing- test the compression

 

Now here's the old guy in me preaching to you Dad, you don't want to put your Queen, on the back of a bike you haven't combed through, final dr has to be checked, torquing the axles, check out the steering, lots of work to do, so why rush the engine.

 

That's my thoughts

 

 

 

 

F

[moto_boy]

No I get that.

I am in no hurry, i usually will not do anything to a bike unless in get motor running , then do brakes and all the rest.

 

So I will have to soak pistons more, then I will seafoam them clean out with carb clean or something like it.

blow them out.

 

Or I will get a false reading .

 

I then compression test.

 

I will do this with both bikes now. And not try and start the silver one again .

I have not tried to start the brown bike , so I think I with the start with this one.

 

And hope the starter is good.

Maybe thats why the prior owner wanted to run the brown one. Never told me about starter.

 

And young can easily remove the fuel pump and unplug the 2 wire connector. Done.

 

I will have carbs removed with intakes open so should get good reading , I will do each cylinder dry and see what's the readings are, then with a small shot of oil if I need to de a wet test.

 

Once that is complete with plugs in no carbs I will run the starter on the brown one and see if it is acting up.

 

No matter what with compression test, done and carbs cleaned- new fuel

I will still try and get it running . I will try any get a good runner before I do any brakes ECT. Why clean up a bike that doesn't run.

 

Any thoughts ?

Edited May 5, 2015 by moto_boy

[Flyinfool]

The one you tried to start;

Did you have some Seafoam in the gas that you ran into it?

It sounds like the float needles are stuck. An overnight soaking in Seafoam will often fix that.

 

I agree that I would also start with the engine, if the engine is junk the rest don't matter. As long as you can resist the temptation that once running to jump on it an go for a ride.

 

The noises that the starter is making.

Does it sound like there is someone inside the engine with a hammer trying to get out, while cranking? If so this is a known issue that there is a better than new fix for.

[Patch]

Well agree with both of you, however the 88 with 40ish K and likely if a Can bike, means its in KLM -would be hard to comprehend that engine not ready to roar with some TLC!

 

This year we pulled an engine off a super bike that we bought some years back out of QUE. it took 2 hours to get out and same to swap over, the prep work took a day, actually an overnight soak was it. The one we pulled was due to cam limit and stretch bolts, my boy wanted to ride asap so that was the goal. It will be a rebuild project over the snow months, his bike is set-up for him so swapping over made sense, although the other one is in nice condition!

 

I mention this because we know you have that low mileage engine, and like I said earlier that's amazing to have! Still early though, your project is just getting started.

[moto_boy]

I did pour seafoam right in the carbs through the top , but the tank I had was just new gas.

Like I said it did start and sounded good but with the needles sticking it wont run right.

 

And then the knocking of starter. I guess if it was running IE carbs working right, I should only have to bump the starter and it would fire, and I wouldn't have to keep cranking, but starter still should not sound like that.

 

And yes its a nock, but no nock with plugs out.

Not sure why it would do that with only 48,000 on it.

 

But I do agree with those miles it should be a good motor.

I will run some seafoam in the temp tank and pump it up into the carbs, then let it sit.

But 9 times out of 10 I always have to remove and clean carbs when they sit.

 

 

 

The brown bike has 78,000

Still not a lot on this bike and it has Metzler on it while the silver one has old Dunlop.

Than tells me he ran the brown one.

 

I put some mystery oil in that this morning and I am letting it soak.

 

I would think a good carb on it and it should fire.

Like I said I will cleans out cylinders on Both bikes and then run compression.

 

As far as the starter I wont no the condition of the brown bike until I install the plugs and try cranking it.

To see how it acts under a load.

 

On the silver bike , what's the fix for starter?

Please don't tell me I have to split the case , already have a seca II I have a part and I am replacing starter clutch gear.

 

Trust me guys I have brought back to life over 30 plus bikes, so I am fully aware of the time and needs.

I have a running bike I ride 98 concourse so no hurries .

 

Just took my dream restore 1981 GPZ 550 down to frame and I am having it powder coated. And doing a total restore.

 

But every bike is different, so I appreciate your knowledge!

Even did an xj1100 second gear fix one time, back cut the dogs.

 

I will get them running!

 

So little time to may cycles!

Edited May 6, 2015 by moto_boy

[moto_boy]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]99146[/ATTACH]

 

I did the restore on the these did paint on xs1100, xs650 , kz1000

Edited May 6, 2015 by moto_boy

[Patch]

Sorry about the KLM piece, not sure why I was thinking Canadian bike??

 

Found this PDF for the starter, I haven't needed to work around mine so not sure if this is the only or best way!

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?80775-Starter-Replacement

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?1060-Starter-Problems

Edited May 6, 2015 by Patch

[Flyinfool]

The knocking while cranking is not from the starter motor.

All that noise is from the start clutch slipping.

The start clutch mounted to the Flywheel. Odds are there is a crack in the mounting ring allowing the rollers to slip.

The stock start clutch has 3 rollers. The cost for parts to rebuild the start clutch is around $180, and it will fail again.

 

There is a member on this site @Dano that will modify and rebuild your flywheel and convert it to an 18 roller setup that is bulletproof. This upgrade costs more, but none of us that has had it done has ever had a problem again.

 

You do not have to split the case. You get to this by removing the middle gear cover and the side cover, both on the left side of the bike. Not bad to get to. Getting the flywheel off the crank is the fun part.

[Patch]

Flyinfool, Would OP be able to pinpoint or confirm this by binning his ear to a driver against the cap while engaging the starter?

[Prairiehammer]

Even a starter clutch in good condition will make the clanging noise if the battery voltage to the starter motor is too low. Consider that the starter clutch is a one way sprag unit with spring loaded rollers that are forced against a 'race' on the 76 tooth gear; when engine rpm exceeds starter input rpm, centrifugal force causes the rollers to disengage. The erratic re-engagement of the rollers causes the awful sounding noise. A slow starter rpm allows the rollers to disengage when the engine 'hits' then re-engage when the engine slows, then disengage when the starter spins too slowly, ad nauseum.

The rollers on the starter clutch can also become gummed up on a long unused machine, with the resultant erratic action (noise). It is not uncommon for one or two rollers to be slow to 'roll' and so do not wedge.

The springs that push the rollers also become fatigued and so do not always force the rollers into the wedge. If the springs are weak, the centrifugal force may be too great too soon and the rollers disengage before the engine is running.

The broken sprag is also common.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Prairiehammer

[moto_boy]

Yep see what you mean defiantly starter clutch.

Seams pretty strait forward.

 

In think even though I have a starter problem

The silver bike has 30,000 less miles carbs are rebuilt but from sitting needles are gummed up.

I can tell its a runner.

 

No way around it , carbs need to come off. These are an easy remove anyway.

Right now if the carbs were right it would fire up no probe, but starter would still be bad.

 

Here is what I think.

The bike was in the shop and carbs were cleaned, started was bad, owner could come up with the money for starter fix.

So dint pay.

So shop owner sold it to his buddy , the guy I got it from!

 

Then the shops owner says hey I have a other bike , brown one, so guy I got it from gets it.

Starts to tear into them and realizes he is in over his head

 

That's my take.

 

That's fine I will get the silver one running and then gvet a good carb for brown one and get them both going!

[moto_boy]

Ok well I am using a smaller battery from my gpz but it is brand new.

And I have my battery charger box on it set to 35 amps

Seams like that's plenty of power

Would you suggest I get the right battery in there , fully charged then. See if it makes noise?

 

Can someone send me the starter clutch replacement PDF.

please