Interesting Article in Feb Rider's Mag

[SilvrT]

Guy compares Harley to Victory

 

Starts on page 30

 

http://issuu.com/theridersmag/docs/2015-02_riders_mag_feb_2015_mag?e=5092282/11037933

[cowpuc]

Guy compares Harley to Victory

 

Starts on page 30

 

http://issuu.com/theridersmag/docs/2015-02_riders_mag_feb_2015_mag?e=5092282/11037933

 

Indeed!! THAT was an interesting article THANKS Silv for the link!! Also, thank you for the link from the perspective of I LOVE BIKES AND BIKE MAGS so you get a DOUBLE thank you from ol Pucster!!

 

Now,, that said,, some of the points of view that the author shares I agree with.. I really do take issue with some of the others though and would LOVE to share my perspective (in my eyes - my perspective (as well as anyone on this site) is just as valid as his and I would LOVE to share it BUT - I wanna get your permission to do so before I do Silv.. Consider this before you answer that. Lots of times,, especially in a family "campfire" setting like we are entering into if you say "yea Puc,, I would like to hear your point of view" - when the point of view gets shared people (and I am NOT talking about you or anyone in particular in this statement,, its an over all perspective that I have ran into a number of times in relationships) take pieces of the sharing person's perspective out of context and feelings get hurt..

Regardless of whether or not I get the go ahead to comment, THAT was a great read and I appreciate the writer, his background AND the article!!

[SilvrT]

puc, I figure everyone here is interested in hearing your perspective ... including your's truly!

 

So, let 'r rip!!

[Freebird]

I enjoy reading the articles and etc. but you have to keep it in perspective. I found that one a bit slanted due to the fact that he obviously had some heartburn over some perceived action on Harley's part to turn their back on him. Some of the things that he said were clearly off the wall and easily disproven. The fact is, many (if not most) people will argue the merits of whatever bike they choose to spend their money on. I've seen claims of the Goldwing being best, the Venture being best, the Harley being best, the Victory being best and on and on and on.

 

It is very easy to find supposedly unbiased opinions supporting just about anything you wish to believe. I would say that for every article a person can find that claims Victory is a better bike, I can produce one that claims Harley is the clear winner. That doesn't prove that one is better than the other.

 

In my opinion, none of it matters. The winner is the bike that puts the biggest smile on your face at this particular time in your life.

[cowpuc]

Thanks Silv!! My problem is and always has been, that I happen to be In-Love with motorcycles (all motorcycles), they are my passion and my love (only seconded by Tippy) and have been since the very beginning of life in my case. I have owned, ridden, made my living off them, built em from scratch, crashed em, had bike shops, seen design work, spun wrenches on them, walked hand in hand with 1 percenters, fixed Cannon Ball riders old bikes, fought the good fight of understanding them both their mechanicals and their emotions (ok, I am a sic man,, have actually felt the soul of many Honda's, Harley's, Yamaha's, Suzuki's, Penton's, Kawi's, Husky's, Greeves, Maico's, Sach's, Victory's, Indians - list goes on).. So PLEASE, anyone who reads this dont kill the messenger - I only speak the truth of my opinon as I understand it and,,, keep in mind, I still am at just the beginning of understanding bikes..

The writer (who I will refer to as HE from now on) talks about Harley's involvement in racing that no body cares about.. Fact is, Harley's history in racing matters to everyone who has ever owned a Harley (and, more importantly, anyone who has ever owned a V-Twin). It is thru competition that the modern day motorcycle's, ALL OF THEM, have become what they are today. Without Harley's involvement in racing and the idea's that sprung from competition, our world - all motorcycles, would be less than they are now.

HE talked about the 1 percenters and their drive to stay clear of anything non-American and that there was no other choice until Honda came out with the wing. I take issue with both parts of this. Back in the day of the true 1 percenter times, Norton - Triumph - BSA - BMW - GUZZI and an amazing list of awesome bikes were here in plenty, there was lots of choices of wayyyy cool - good bikes.. Also, many of the "real" Harley riding fools back in that time that he refers to, took the early Honda 750 motors and did their own thing in creating metric motor powered AWESOME Chops that they chose to ride long distances on instead of the Harley's they had sitting in the garage. Company's like Amen, Santee, Denver and many many other American companys cranked out frames/forks and stuff to supplement this need and those business's were HUGE within these groups that he states only allowed Harley. These guys were not "Harley Only Clubs" as he suggested.. They were some of the most unbelievable, master gear heads known to man..

HE speaks of Indians early failure in 99/03 as just another bike with a "clone" Harley motor in it. Ok, I concede that they did use an S&S EVO motor in some of them BUT, that beautiful Bottle Cap motor was no S&S but a valiant attempt at adding something to the V-Twin world. It was a gorgeous display of an attempt to make a true "Indian" motor and I happen to LOVE it (I love the S&S EVO too).

HE continues in building up Polaris but forgets to mention what Polaris did to over 2 years worth of customers at the beginning of their Victory days.. It seems like most people, including this fellow biker who claims to have lived thru all this, have completely forgotten those days.. I was in the bike business back than and had a very good friend who had chosen to franchise with Polaris at his shop.. Polaris was so unreasonable about solving early problems and not honoring legally binding warranties (those first 3 years were HORRIBLE) that he ended up tossing Polaris out on their ear!! To this very day (that I know of - it could probably be proven easily with a quick internet search) Polaris STILL owes thousands of dollars to closed business's and their owners and to thousands of bike owners who got hit with the Polaris culture rip off guys and they have still NEVER recieved so much as a "sorry".. Its not just Harley who has taken advantage of people..

Than HE starts on "resale" values and, to my shock,, dares to touch on the "Shovel Head".. HE states "for the last 10 years this has not been true" (good resale value),, I completely and truthfully take issue with this.. The last ten years of my motorcycle business has almost been exclusively Harley Shovel's (with a few T.C.'s tossed in) - reason being, they are the only thing that HAS held its value - complete opposite of this persons perspective...

I was at Sturgis when they unveiled the new Polaris Indian (GOREGOUS GORGEOUS SCOOT) and almost laid flat on the pavement and started crying when I heard Polaris was raising the prices on all models to match Harleys models - upping the price of the bikes before they ever even hit the market. I spoke with the Polaris gang and told them that THAT really hurt.. Was asked why I felt that way, I said because you are going toe to toe with the pillars (HD) and its not going to help seeing this fine bike get established.. They said, WE ARE NOT GOING AFTER HARLEY RIDERS OR HARLEY DAVIDSON - WE ARE JUST GIVING PEOPLE WHO MIGHT PURCHASE A BIKE ANOTHER CHOICE.. It was not long after that that Polaris finally came out and said this was NOT true, they clearly changed their minds again..

HE writes on and on about the V-Twin motor, playing Vic against Harley.. Personally,, I am just flabergasted that the writer cant clearly see what all of it is about,, ALL of the V-Twin motor business is all about.. If it were not for Harley, Harley marketing people, Harley riders, Harley engineers and on and on,, the V-Twin motor would have died a LONGGGGG time ago.. In a way, every V-Twin in production today is a Harley clone. They are all taking advantage of what those people over in Milwaukee did to perfect and keep alive the lowly V-Twin. Spin it anyway you want to spin it,, their clones.. Of course, it goes without saying, even Harley could not have done what they did without people wanting them, BUT, its still a fact that its Harley and Harley alone that has kept the V-Twin in existence.. The very desing of the V-Twin Motor is archaic at best, even the homely parallel twin is by far a better design than the "V" but somehow, because of bikers love for the sound, the viberations and simplicty - Harley kept it beating..

Why? Wellll,,, let me tell you what I think, IMHO (and it aint worth much). In my pea sized brain, the opposed cylinder motor (like a Honda wing) is the closes thing to the best natural balanced engine design that a person can find.. Living in a perfect world, all with the same intrinsic love and satisfaction levels we should all techically be riding Wings. Problem is, we are all different and we all ride for a different reason.. Our taste in motorcycles is no different than our tastes in ice cream. Given that, its no wonder that so many people would rather ride a Harley or one of their clones than they would a bike with the "perfect" engine..

One of the areas that I absolutely agree with HE about has to do with center of gravity and handling.. I spent a fair amount aboard a Victory Vision 8 Ball. When I gave the bike back at the end of the day, I told the owner that ALL bikes should handle like that - THAT was the perfect bike in handling!! Polaris engineers had found that sweet spot in design that literally caused the bike to give the rider the "feeling" that even in the tightest of twisties - the bike would NOT go over - I nicked named the Vision 8 Ball "the weeble" because weebles wooble but they wont fall down - IT WAS AMAZING!! I truthfully feel that this "geometry" combined with the perfect balance and smoothness of an opposed cylinder engine could be the beginning of the PERFECT motorcycle.. Would I buy a brand new one if Polaris could somehow do just that,,,, no,, of course not.. I would rather take my pitance of a money and keep riding my beat up old 500 Dollar 1st Gen Ventures,, the price of a new bike these days can sure take a tired old biker like me and my pretty wife Tippy to some amazing places..

If folks were honest with themselves, instead of spending their time trying to justify what they chose in the kind/type of bike they purchased and just rode it and enjoyed it for what their tastes had brought into their lives they would be happier.. There are many people who really dont want the perfect bike, they might wanna bounce along on the Pogo seat of old Harley or even find solace in the peace that comes from a humble 600cc Honda Silverwing scooter with a side car attached.. If it makes em smile AND they sign my bike for me when I make their aquaintance - they are ok by me!!

 

that was a long one for a camp fire chat,, pass the hot dogs this time will ya..

Edited April 30, 2015 by cowpuc

[Freebird]

Yea, that's what I said.

[XV1100SE]

Puc....you are a man of few words.

 

For those interested :

- "Opposed-piston engines" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposed-piston_engine

- "Straight-twin (parallel) engines" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-twin_engine"

 

Both are interesting reads.

[Tisunac]

Okay, I'm neither a Harley guy or a Victory guy. A few years ago, I saw a Victory Cross Country Tour at the bike show. Beautiful bike, to me it looked like a touring bike should look like. I sat on it - the fit was perfect right off the showroom floor (I'm 6'3"). I was hooked. There and then I've decided that will be my next bike.

 

Fast forward about 2 years.... I finally started seriously thinking about getting a new bike. So, I founded a Victory demo ride about 2.5 hours drive from home. Bikes looked very impressive. From a distance. Checking them out closer - way too much plastic. And cheap plastic. Tupperware-feel to it. Side covers unsecured, you can pop them out with a finger. You slightly press the plastic (any part) and it bends, caves. That was the first close-up impression.

 

Then we took them for a ride. Unimpressed. Felt underpowered. Loud, but not in a "nice" way. Not rumble, rather a rattle. Cheap plastic. Clunky clutch but I bet I could adjust to that. Great comfort, great brakes. But no smile on my face. To me, it was not a $20K+ bike. Big disappointment.....

 

A few days after there was a HD demo ride in my area. Neither bike fit me as well as the Victory. And not excited about the "old-fashioned" look of HD's. But they felt finished. They felt like a quality products, solid. And talking about the power.... You twist that throttle and that bike will go!... Very responsive, and with a nice rumble. Not rattle - rumble. I still won't spend that kinda money for an HD knowing their previous reliability (all my HD friends spend more time at the shop than they would like, there's always something...) but at least they felt like a high quality products.

 

Again, I will not end up with either. When the time comes, it looks like it will be a Goldwing. Reliability, proven, fast, nimble. Not perfect - not a perfect fit like a Victory or the "cool" factor of HD but overall a great bike.

 

And I know a lot of people will disagree but to me, a Harley felt like a much better, solid, finished bike than any of the Victories....

[cowpuc]

Yea, that's what I said.

 

Yes you did, BUT,, I raised my hand in class and got permission from the teacher before I gave my perspective :rasberry:

[StarFan]

Puc....you are a man of few words.

 

 

:crackup: :crackup: But they are words of truth and carefully spoken.

PUC - YOU AR DA MAN !!!!!!!!

[SilvrT]

Fast forward about 2 years.... I finally started seriously thinking about getting a new bike. So, I founded a Victory demo ride about 2.5 hours drive from home. Bikes looked very impressive. From a distance. Checking them out closer - way too much plastic. And cheap plastic. Tupperware-feel to it. Side covers unsecured, you can pop them out with a finger. You slightly press the plastic (any part) and it bends, caves. That was the first close-up impression.

 

Then we took them for a ride. Unimpressed. Felt underpowered. Loud, but not in a "nice" way. Not rumble, rather a rattle. Cheap plastic. Clunky clutch but I bet I could adjust to that. Great comfort, great brakes. But no smile on my face. To me, it was not a $20K+ bike. Big disappointment.....

 

 

I've mulled over your post for quite some time now and am compelled to comment.

 

Considering your "rant" in the following post, I'm of the opinion that your comments here are fueled by your previous experience in that you're still harboring a grudge. As such, I feel your "bad mouthing" the Victory product is unwarranted. Being an owner of an XCT, I find no truth in most of the negatives you're saying about them.

 

It's really a shame that such an experience has closed your eyes to such a great motorcycle.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?89241-My-letter-to-the-Victory-management

[SilvrT]

I know Donny Petersen, and he adjusts his writing style to suit the target audience that the various publications are aimed at, in order to get his point across.

I remember avidly reading Joe Minton articles in the eighties and nineties, and thinking how factual and clearly written they were. And then I read one that he had done for Easy Riders magazine. It was all "Yo Bro, lets blow the Yamahondukis into the weeds" stuff. Different publications have different house styles. Cycle World was always different to Hot Bike for example.

Journalism, wether we like it or not, is about getting a proper balance between entertainment and facts. If it's not entertaining, in order to hold the readers' attention, then it won't be read, and the point of the article will be missed. If we want pure facts, then take a workshop manual to bed, rather than a magazine. (I do that, but then I'm probably a bit weird...).

Donny doesn't have anything to prove, either to himself, or to others: he's been there and done it all. However, his large motorcyling audience is obviously interested as to why a previously die hard Harley enthusiast has chosen to jump ship to another brand (and yes, he has bought a Magnum).

Some of Donny's experiences mirror my own, albeit he's been around longer. I've owned 20 H-Ds over the last 36 years, and have run my own shop for 25. I build H-D engines, have my own machine shop and a dyno. I also write articles (mainly technical, and more recently, road tests) with the first one appearing over 20 years ago.

Just over a year ago I was invited by a magazine to be involved in a large road test review, comparing the new Project Rushmore H-D Streetglide, the new Indian Chieftain, and the Victory Cross Country. I've always considered myself open minded (the motorcycle doesn't make the man, the man makes the motorcycle) and don't give a damn what anybody chooses to ride. If it makes you happy, get on with it and enjoy your motorcycling. I was so impressed with the Cross Country, that it never went back to Polaris. I sold my 20th H-D, that I'd thoroughly enjoyed for 5 years, and bought the Victory.

Here's something else to consider as well: look at what many of the names in the American V-Twin world are doing, and they've all had a lifetime of getting down and dirty with H-Ds. Arlen Ness, who built a career customising H-Ds switched to Victory. He's a member of the Hamsters, a unigue 'club' of top flight custom builders. Many of them now ride Victorys (mainly Visions). Arlen also sold a Vision to Sonny Barger.

Doug Coffey from Head-Quarters in Canada, who's been in the H-D business since 1969, and pioneered a lot of the performance camshaft and cylinder head porting we see today, has just bought a Magnum.

When we see the guys, who are at the top of their respective games, moving across to Victory, then there is clearly something going on.

The secret's out, 'The times they are a changing'....

[cowpuc]

AWESOME READ SILV!!!

 

What you so amazingly said is EXACTLY why I LOVE reading articles like the one you posted. It not only has entertainment value for me though, it also makes me think.. I love stuff that inspires us to think more deeply about the things we love - for me, that love happens to be motorcycles (sounds like you have had that same disease for a long time too)..

Personally,, I am sooooooo proud of Polaris and what they are up to. Not just with the what they have done with the Victory's (having stuck thru the hard early learning years and are now producing some of the best bikes on the market) but in turning up the heat, grabbing that Indian name and LOOK at what they did - OHHH MYY GOSH!! And now,, the Slingshot = they do have guts, my kinda folk (wish Yamaha would show a little of those "guts" in developing a new Venny).

Anyway my friend, THANK YOU for your well written (should be published in a bike rag just like Donny's - I LOVE your style!!) response cause it to MADE ME THINK!!

 

Side note: you mention Doug Coffey,, hmmmmm,, wonder if he is any relation to our fellow member and very dear friend of mine, @CMCOFFEY .. Now wouldnt that just be a bowl of Banana Nut Ice Cream to go with my morning coffee!!

[SilvrT]

You're right Puc... I'm a "diseased person" LOL!

 

For all who read what I've posted here, while I'd say I'm somewhat biased, my intent is purely for good reading material and information. Not tryin to sway anyone away from their fav scoot.

[SilvrT]

Anyway my friend, THANK YOU for your well written (should be published in a bike rag just like Donny's - I LOVE your style!!) response cause it to MADE ME THINK!!

 

 

Just to clarify, that was not my words but rather, one of the members on the Vic forum.

[cowpuc]

You're right Puc... I'm a "diseased person" LOL!

 

For all who read what I've posted here, while I'd say I'm somewhat biased, my intent is purely for good reading material and information. Not tryin to sway anyone away from their fav scoot.

 

Yea,, you have Gearheadmotorcyclesicklyitist.. Obviously, in your case (as in every other varmint on this site) it is also incurable.. Oh well Silv,, guess ya may as well just surrender to the disease - get on your gorgeous Vic and go out and get your fix for the day...

 

Sure wish we lived closer cause I would join ya on my Honda Helix,, I LOVE scootering.. Shoulda seen T.J.'s face yesterday when I took off on HIS Honda ST1300 and stuck him with that putzy thing:crackup::crackup:

[SilvrT]

Gearheadmotorcyclesicklyitist..

 

I googled that and shore enuf, my symptoms are a match!

 

 

get on your gorgeous Vic and go out and get your fix for the day...

 

I'll be doing just that in about 1.5 hours (a VicFix! like it!). Will also be getting a Harley fix cos today is Harley demo days and I always go to them if for nothing else but the entertainment.