pbjman Posted April 9, 2015 #1 Posted April 9, 2015 Hoping for a quick answer: I have Skydocs 2nd gen clutch upgrade kit, the one with just the full disc, heavy duty spring, and new gasket. After everything is out, is this correct: the new full disc goes in first, then the first steel plate, then the wire, then the rest of the discs and steel plates? Mainly my question is about the wire; does it go back and in what position? thanks in advance!
M61A1MECH Posted April 9, 2015 #2 Posted April 9, 2015 I thought the wire was left out when a full disc was used in the first position, because the extra thickness blocks the grove the wire sits in.
Flyinfool Posted April 10, 2015 #3 Posted April 10, 2015 Lose the wire. The new full disc goes in first. Be sure to soak the new full disc in engine oil before installing.
pbjman Posted April 10, 2015 Author #4 Posted April 10, 2015 Lose the wire. The new full disc goes in first. Be sure to soak the new full disc in engine oil before installing. This is what I ended up doing. thank you Jeff and Steve for your answers.
cowpuc Posted April 10, 2015 #5 Posted April 10, 2015 Anyone know the purpose of the wire and the funky disc in the first place? Why didnt Yam use a full clutch pack right from the beginning?
dingy Posted April 10, 2015 #6 Posted April 10, 2015 From what I know, it helped soften the engagement of the clutch, more to the liking of the touring type rider bike is marketed towards. Gary
cowpuc Posted April 10, 2015 #7 Posted April 10, 2015 From what I know, it helped soften the engagement of the clutch, more to the liking of the touring type rider bike is marketed towards. Gary Interesting Gary, makes sense now that you point that out,, like maybe the narrowness of that first plate (the one behind the wire) would make the pac less grabby and smoother to operate cause the surface area of the clutch itself have been lessened - am I even close to being on the same track with your train of thought? Wonder if the trailer pulling members around here make it a common practice to swap that inner plate out for a whole one... Hopefully PB is ok with me hijacking, if not you have my apologies PB..
M61A1MECH Posted April 10, 2015 #8 Posted April 10, 2015 Interesting Gary, makes sense now that you point that out,, like maybe the narrowness of that first plate (the one behind the wire) would make the pac less grabby and smoother to operate cause the surface area of the clutch itself have been lessened - am I even close to being on the same track with your train of thought? Wonder if the trailer pulling members around here make it a common practice to swap that inner plate out for a whole one... Hopefully PB is ok with me hijacking, if not you have my apologies PB.. Two points: 1) On my 07 Venture I did the SkyDoc spring upgrade, received the full thickness plate but never installed it, pulled my Bushtec with it no issues. 2) On my 98 Royal Star Tour Classic it had all full thickness plates, so it baffles me why Yamaha changed that set up on the Venture, Gary be on to something.
pbjman Posted April 10, 2015 Author #9 Posted April 10, 2015 It's ok Puc, your hijacking added value to the thread!
Carbon_One Posted April 10, 2015 #10 Posted April 10, 2015 Trailer pullers and trikers both benefit from Sky Doc's clutch upgrade. Larry
Du-Rron Posted April 10, 2015 #11 Posted April 10, 2015 Interesting Gary, makes sense now that you point that out,, like maybe the narrowness of that first plate (the one behind the wire) would make the pac less grabby and smoother to operate cause the surface area of the clutch itself have been lessened - am I even close to being on the same track with your train of thought? Wonder if the trailer pulling members around here make it a common practice to swap that inner plate out for a whole one... Hopefully PB is ok with me hijacking, if not you have my apologies PB.. Dear Puc: See here http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?99519-Clutch-Upgrade-using-Skydoc_17-Kit Also, the Belleville washer behind the wired in steel disk helps to *disengage* the clutch and helps to spread basket wear over a larger area of the basket since the clutch plates don't just sit there, they are actually moved around quite a bit by the Belleville washer. Also, with the Skydoc kit what everybody wants is the super duty diaphragm spring so that you can pull Mack Trucks without the clutch slipping. The downside is that lever travel to feather the clutch is practically no longer there. Takes some getting used to. Cheers!
Flyinfool Posted April 10, 2015 #12 Posted April 10, 2015 I don't think it is the spring that causes the friction zone to get very narrow, I believe like Dingy mentioned it is the half plate that gives the nice wide friction zone. I have been contemplating going back to the half plate just to see if I will still get no slippage because of the stronger spring but still get back the friction zone.
Du-Rron Posted April 10, 2015 #13 Posted April 10, 2015 I don't think it is the spring that causes the friction zone to get very narrow, I believe like Dingy mentioned it is the half plate that gives the nice wide friction zone. I have been contemplating going back to the half plate just to see if I will still get no slippage because of the stronger spring but still get back the friction zone. No, it is the Belleville washer (spring) that gives the wide friction zone. Once the diaphragm spring starts to overcome the Belleville washer's k-value ( spring constant) the clutch pak grips tighter. This distance gives the wide friction zone and provides damping. Also this actions makes the clutch plates move about 3/16" back and forth in the clutch basket which spreads the wear over a greater area in the clutch basket and helps to engage/disengage the clutch plates.
videoarizona Posted April 10, 2015 #14 Posted April 10, 2015 So Du-Ron...are you saying if we get the kit and not use the full plate (use half plate)...we will get the best of both worlds? IE, strong clutch with wide friction zone? david
Du-Rron Posted April 10, 2015 #15 Posted April 10, 2015 I have the Skydoc kit and I am still getting used to it. If you just replaced the diaphragm spring then you would get a higher clamping load and retain the feel of the factory clutch lever and get a little more tow weight before the clutch slips. Call this Stage One. If you use the full disk you will have a -touch- more friction disk area that will allow (diaphragm spring + increased surface friction disk area) to drag more weight than just the diaphragm spring by itself but will loose the factory clutch lever feel. Call this Stage Two. Like I say, I am still getting used to mine and I have not ruled out going back to the half disk with Belleville washer.
eagleeye Posted April 10, 2015 #16 Posted April 10, 2015 It would be interesting to hear what Earl/Skydoc has to say about that.
pbjman Posted April 10, 2015 Author #17 Posted April 10, 2015 I did the full clutch disc and new spring. Ditched the 1/2 disc, washers, and wire. My bike has 24,000 miles, and wasn't slipping bad. I did feel definite slippage a few times under heavy acceleration at the higher rpm only. With that said, my test ride left me thinking it really didn't feel much different as far as clutch play, ease of squeezing, or smooth starts. Not hard to pull in and no lurching or feeling too "grabby". I jumped on the throttle and went hard from 1st to 3rd and there was no slippage at all. Maybe if I had put it off until my clutch got real slippy then I would notice a bigger difference. I will be riding two-up quite a bit so I'm sure it was worthwhile, especially if we end up getting a tag-a-long trailer like we are thinking about. Just not a 'night and day' difference right now. And thanks again to all who replied, and to Earl for confirming via PM to not use the wire and washers with the full disc upgrade. One additional note...I did remove the wire in 1 piece and it looked completely feasible to reuse it as it just wraps around the basket and the two ends thread into a hole together and get crimped/twisted to hold them.
cowpuc Posted April 10, 2015 #18 Posted April 10, 2015 Not to throw even more of a curve ball into this pot cause my mommy taught me better manners than that but,, I dont remember EVER having a good clutch in ANY of my 83/84 1st Gen's.. Not ever!! Not even one.. Its kind of embarrassing too cause when Tippy, Tweeks and I race my neighbor on his 2012 103 Harley Ultra and I try to explain to him that the reason he gets a window of catch up time in low speeds is cause Tweeks has no second gear and that the reason we are only 8 bikes ahead of him when we get to 100 mph is cause my clutch starts slipping as soon as the tach hits 4 grand in 4th or 5th gear he gives me a .. The 83/84 models do not have the large diaphram spring like you guys are talking about, they have the old type of pressure plate springs (5 or 6 springs that look like little valve springs). I have tried more than once to shim the springs out to tighten em, have even tried using different springs but never did get to the point where I could feel the front end coming up in 3rd, or be able to actually power pull in higher gears.. Wonder when Yam started using that diaphram spring and if the clutch basket is adaptable to the early models.. Also, the next time I work on one I am gonna pull that inner plate and do me a Skydocker plate and see what happens!!
Du-Rron Posted April 10, 2015 #19 Posted April 10, 2015 (edited) An Explanation Of Clutch Upgrades as I see it: Stage One = Replace Diaphragm Spring with heavier spring. Get to tow a little more. Keep Factory Clutch Feel and range. Stage Two = Replace Diaphragm Spring with Barnett Pressure Plate. Get to tow a little more. Keep Factory Clutch Feel and range with a little heavier pull at the lever. Stage Three = Replace Diaphragm Spring with heavier spring, lose the Belleville Washer and plain washer and wire, and install full friction disk. Get to tow a little more. Lose Factory Clutch Feel and range. Same pull as Stage One. Stage Four = Replace Diaphragm Spring with Barnett Pressure Plate, lose the Belleville Washer and plain washer and wire, and install full friction disk. Get to tow a little more. Lose Factory Clutch Feel and range. Same Pull as Stage Two. Stage Popeye = Replace Diaphragm Spring with Barnett Pressure Plate, Install Heavy Duty Barnett Springs. Loose the Belleville Washer and plain washer and wire, and install full friction disk. Get to tow still more. Now increasingly harder to keep front wheel on ground from all the weight you are now dragging behind you. U-Joints may now be the weak link. Lose Factory Clutch Feel. Forearms get larger as both hands are now required to pull clutch lever. Edited April 11, 2015 by Du-Rron Correct Spelling
dingy Posted April 10, 2015 #20 Posted April 10, 2015 1986 is 1st year for Ventures with diaphragm spring. If anyone is thinking of changing an 83-85 over to diapragm setup, they will also need to change motor case clutch cover. Diagphram spring assembly is wider than coil spring setup. Tweety has 2 stock diaphragm springs in. Rather hard pull, but it will not slip. Gary
Du-Rron Posted April 10, 2015 #21 Posted April 10, 2015 I forgot about doubling down with the two diaphragm springs. I'll call that one, Stage 2.5
uncledj Posted April 10, 2015 #22 Posted April 10, 2015 At 40,000 I replaced the friction plates with stock plates, doubled up the wave spring, and have been very happy with it. No slippage, .....can do a wheelie or burnout if I choose, and while the lever's a bit harder to pull, it's not enough for me to consider it a negative. Maybe if I was a bit smaller, or older it'd be a problem, but other than noticing the harder pull at first, it feels about right to me now. I can ride it all day without a problem. I like the improved "sporty" performance.
dingy Posted April 10, 2015 #23 Posted April 10, 2015 I think Stage 5 would be more appropriate. Then Stage 6 is one stock spring and one PCW. Then Stage 7 would be 2 PCW springs. I tried 2 PCW springs in Tweety and backed off to 2 stock springs. With the 2 stock springs, I will shift to neutral if I know stop will be long. Gary
Money Venture Posted April 11, 2015 #24 Posted April 11, 2015 OK, I'm getting ready to do this on an 87. On the above stage list is Doc's kit the heavier springs or the Barnett springs? On my Honda 550 years ago I went with a Barnett Clutch and 305 springs. It strengthened my left forearm but I was younger too. All I want is something I can ride two up maybe a small trailer down the road and no slip when accelerating in higher gears. I like to play sport bike sometimes but in a pretty tame way. Oh Yeah, what is a PCW?
Du-Rron Posted April 11, 2015 #25 Posted April 11, 2015 OK, I'm getting ready to do this on an 87. On the above stage list is Doc's kit the heavier springs or the Barnett springs? On my Honda 550 years ago I went with a Barnett Clutch and 305 springs. It strengthened my left forearm but I was younger too. All I want is something I can ride two up maybe a small trailer down the road and no slip when accelerating in higher gears. I like to play sport bike sometimes but in a pretty tame way. Oh Yeah, what is a PCW? I believe yours has a diaphragm spring. This is what you want. http://www.venturerider.org/forum/photopost/showproduct.php?product=60&title=first-gen-mkii-heavy-duty-clutch-springs-upgrade-kit&cat=17 PCW Racing makes an even thicker diaphragm spring. See here. http://www.pcwracing.net/
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