How would I know what they did?

[Semi-retired]

I hesitate to say that I don't trust "my" dealer (I use quotes because I didn't buy my second-hand Venture from him).....but, when I picked up my bike last week after (ostensibly) having my valve shims checked/adjusted.....I was met with a $251 invoice and a cheery....."They didn't have to replace any of the shims; they were all within tolerance".

 

That verbal explanation, plus the notes on the bill that they performed 2.38 hours of shop labour and used 1.89 liters of antifreeze were the only indications that ANYTHING had been "done" to my bike.

 

So......(forgive my basic paranoid/schizophrenic nature......I must have been terrorized as a child)........how would I REALLY know if my shims were/are "within tolerance"???

 

Or, is THIS the reason you guys who do them yourselves........DO THEM YOURSELVES???????

 

Also, and I know this is by far the less serious of the potential two evils, does 1.89 liters of coolant sound like the amount the would have replaced had they done nothing BUT the shims......or is it the amount they would have used had they done what I asked, which was....."While you're in there doing the shims, would you please pop any drain plugs that are 'handy' so we can refresh as much of the coolant as possible....without starting a work order".

 

Just curious. (And, yes, I know, I should be TRYING to develop some level of trust for this guy, but when my left fairing is covered in grease and the little quick fastener that holds both "cowlings" together at the bottom is missing.......I get the feeling HE'S not trying any harder that I am to develop the relationship!)

[Du-Rron]

Did they charge you for valve cover gaskets? Do they look new? 1.89L of straight Antifreeze may be enough. 1.89L of premix antifreeze is not enough.

[eagleeye]

Well, first of all, I think that the price is fair. I would have wanted to know what every valve checked at for sure. He should have them all written down. And should have replaced the plugs while they were accessible. As far as the coolant, he got over half of it. Seems like he should have gotten another liter though.

I guess you should have a gut feeling about trusting the guy or not, right? Besides who cares about the dealer, it's the mechanic that worked on your bike that you should care about/trust.

How many miles on the bike?

[Flyinfool]

Within spec means just that, even if right on the edge, within is within. The valve clearance gets smaller with normal wear, so if the clearance was right at the bottom limit it will not take as long to get out of spec as if it was at the high end of the limit. As long as it never gets to zero under any operating condition, you are OK. If it hits zero while running the valve and possibly the head goes by-by.

 

When I do my valve shims this year, I will set them all on the high side of "within" and know in my own mind that they will be good for a very long time.

 

In reality does setting for the high limit make a difference? I really have no clue how much if any difference it will make.

In theory it will last longer before an adjustment is "needed", on the other hand, in theory because the valves will open a few thousandths less, there will be slightly less peak horse power, but possibly slightly more peak torque.

Is any of this noticeable or even measurable? I doubt it. But it will make me feel better.

[Seaking]

This is basically why I do my own valve checks.. I trust my local dealership shop that they won't cheat me, or take short cuts but because there are so few RSV, I feel they may not be up to par on the ins and outs of the info we have gathered here.. (those little angles, best way of doing it, things that make the job easier but proper). I bought my own shim tool which paid for itself with the first job.

 

However, getting a good shop to do the valve clearance check can be expensive in some areas (been quoted as much as $800 CDN) and for the mechanically shy owner, it may be the only way to go.. But ask them to get you the measurements for future reference.. and it hopefully ensures that they actually did do the checks. One local RSV rider reported that he had taken his bike in to an independeant shop for valve clearance checks but discovered they never got to the valves due to the witness markers he placed on various components.. never moved or disturbed. When he asked the independent shop owner about it, they fessed up that they didn't 'actually do the check' but know the valves are in tolerance by other indicators.. (whatever that means).. They settled out of court and he got his checks done at the dealership.. which required new shims..

 

I just wished I had a bucket load of shims so I can get them all as close to tolerance as possible.. as I'm doing the job.. but around here, it's always 1 to 2 weeks waiting for parts..

 

On one of the Suzuki boards, they have a "shim club" whereas you use their online calculator to determine what size you require and all you pay is the shipping to get a repacement one as you send in your old one.. I used their services while rebuilding an older Suzuki.. Hmm might be a neat idea for the RSV community if someone was up to the task.. t'was a lot cheaper than waiting for shims to arrive from dealership and you could get the in-between sizes as well if they were on hand.

[djh3]

I got a boatload of like 280 and up shims I can donate. LOL I was going to say put some "slip marks" on the bolt heads. If they are still lined up when you get it back, I would bet money they have not touched it. If its missing the center fastener to hold the lower cowls together Its a fair guess they got at least as far as removing them to drain the radiator.

[XV1100SE]

For a good dealer....Performance Cycle in Kitchener. You can trust them. I know this from previous experience with them.

[MiCarl]

2.38 hours isn't enough to do the job.

[cowpuc]

2.38 hours isn't enough to do the job.

 

Yep,, my thought exactly.. Well,, actually my thought was "kids today must be farrrr quicker and better mechanics than we ever were"..

Anyway, I would go back to the shop and yak with the mechanic who did the work.. Just tell the service writer you wanted to ask the mechanic who worked on your bike a couple quick questions.. Ask him how the job went, had he ever done one before (for sure if he didnt, he didnt do it in a couple hours), what kind of specs he found.. At least get a feel for whether or not the person deserves to be trusted.. Another thing is did they give you your old gaskets? Sounds crazy but I always made sure we gave customers back old parts and pieces (including gaskets if there was anything left of em) just for transparency sake!! Would hurt to ask for em and see what kind of response you get..

[Semi-retired]

Did they charge you for valve cover gaskets? Do they look new? 1.89L of straight Antifreeze may be enough. 1.89L of premix antifreeze is not enough.

That's a great question.......especially if they ABSOLUTELY.....POSITIVELY.....HAD TO put in new ones in order to perform the job.

 

Would they have? (because they didn't itemize them on the invoice. But I guess if challenged on that, their best defense would be that they "threw them in".)

[MiCarl]

The gaskets don't absolutely need to be replaced. They're more of a rubber seal that are designed to be re-used. But yours are 12 years old so their days are numbered.

 

If I'd done the job I'd have recommended they be replaced and made it clear to the customer that I wouldn't warrant against leaks without them.

[Semi-retired]

Well, first of all, I think that the price is fair. I would have wanted to know what every valve checked at for sure. He should have them all written down.

Yes...but was it even "too fair"?? Carl says 2.38 hours wasn't long enough........and I was sort of expecting to see some notes attached to the invoice, but there were none. I'll phone and question the mechanic...as a couple of guys have suggested.

 

And should have replaced the plugs while they were accessible. As far as the coolant, he got over half of it. Seems like he should have gotten another liter though.

I guess you should have a gut feeling about trusting the guy or not, right? Besides who cares about the dealer, it's the mechanic that worked on your bike that you should care about/trust.

How many miles on the bike?

Re: Plugs - can't remember if the service "intake" guy asked me about doing plugs; either way, I would have said "no thanks" though, having done them myself last year.

 

Re: Coolant - "1.89L of Prestone Premix Coolant" (at $14.95) didn't sound like enough to me. (And it is shown as "pre-mix" on the bill, which, as Du-Rron says sounds a little shy, quantity-wise.) And, WHY the weird quantity? Is that a FULL, standard size, retail container? My metric convertor says 1.89L equals 1.6629 Imperial qts......or 1.997141 US qts. Does this stuff come in 2 US quart bottles?

 

Re: The Mechanic - Agreed! The dealer might be good, bad or indifferent...it's the mechanic who counts. (Although in our collective decades of dealing with retailers, I think we'd all agree that either "Great customer service" or alternatively a "screw the customer" mentality has a tendency to be established "at the top"....and trickle down from there!)

 

Mileage? 36,005 (57,946 kilometres)

[Du-Rron]

Yes...but was it even "too fair"?? Carl says 2.38 hours wasn't long enough........and I was sort of expecting to see some notes attached to the invoice, but there were none. I'll phone and question the mechanic...as a couple of guys have suggested.

 

 

I can't even get the seat off in 2.38 hours....

 

To be fair, they could have shaved time off the bill trying to give you a break, they could have thrown in free gaskets, they could have done this that and the other. But, the fact that this question of valve adjustment exists means that you will be having a conversation with them shortly. I'm interested in hearing how that goes as well.

[Seaking]

It would be easy to look at the RTV (sealant) on the valve cover gasket to see if they even got that far.. if it looks like new stuff was applied, at least you'd know they went that far.. but if it's the old cracked ugly looking stuff, then questions should be asked.. Still hoping you got a good deal on a professional job done..

 

"can't even get the seat off in 2.38 hours..." that made my day lol.

[MiCarl]

I just checked my reference here at the shop, which shows OEM warranty times. According to the reference Yamaha will pay 2.7 hours to check and adjust the valve lash. The trick is "guessing" which other operations are included in that number. The reference says 2 hours to R/I the tank so it seams reasonable that part is not included in the 2.7 number. I would bill a customer 5 hours to check them, a bit extra if I had to change a bunch of them out.

 

The reference lists cooling system capacity at 3.7 quarts.

[Semi-retired]

I just checked my reference here at the shop, which shows OEM warranty times. According to the reference Yamaha will pay 2.7 hours to check and adjust the valve lash. The trick is "guessing" which other operations are included in that number. The reference says 2 hours to R/I the tank so it seams reasonable that part is not included in the 2.7 number. I would bill a customer 5 hours to check them, a bit extra if I had to change a bunch of them out.

 

The reference lists cooling system capacity at 3.7 quarts.

Hey, Carl......thanks for doing the "research".

 

You ARE looking at a Gen 2 manual, right?

 

Two hours to R/R a gas tank seems OVERLY generous. I'm sure I've had mine off in 20 minutes.

[MiCarl]

Yes, numbers were 2nd gen.

 

Agree, tank time is long. One of the challenges is changing what they give me to a realistic number. Typically it lists clutches at about 1/2 hour. While you can do most clutches in a half hour it'll take another half hour to scrape off an old gasket.

Edited April 9, 2015 by MiCarl

[Semi-retired]

.... it'll take another half hour to scrape off an old gasket.

I'm with you on that one!

[MikeWa]

The time sounds reasonable if they didn't have to change any shims. Did they flush the cooling system or just replace antifreeze lost during the valve check? This is one of those jobs I always worry about. A lazy mechanic can claim he checked when in fact he just glanced over valve train. The service writer won't know the difference. I hate this kind of job. When I took my first Venture in for a valve adjustment I told them two of the shims needed to be replaced. I just couldn't remember for sure which two. So I agreed when they said they should just go ahead and check them all. When I picked the bike up they informed me I was wrong. All of the valve clearances were within spec. and they gave me a lengthy explanation of how they checked them. I felt better.

 

Mike