Du-Rron Posted February 14, 2015 #1 Posted February 14, 2015 (edited) On 10-7-14 when I bought my 2012 RSV I thought it had one of the best "feeling" clutch action I have ever experienced. By the time the 600 mile service came around about ten days later the clutch action had worsened considerably. The clutch fluid was two years old when I bought the bike new and was black and nasty looking. I flushed and bled the clutch and it again "felt" great. On 2-10-15 about 4 months later when I had 5000 miles on the bike I was noticing the clutch action no longer was "feeling" good. I inspected the clutch fluid and again found that it had baked itself black again. The clutch action on this bike is largely determined by the "newness" of the fluid. I again flushed and bled the clutch and the "feeling" again returned to "brand new". I began looking for any area on the clutch route that could be exposed to high heat. I found the most likely location to be exposed to radiant heat was to be the location 1" away from the exhaust pipe on Cyl #2 . Behind the rubber cover is a steel clutch fluid line that is most likely to take a lot of radiant heat. I took some "Heavy Duty" foil from the kitchen and cut a 16" X 6" piece. I then folded the foil (shiny side out) to make a 4" X 6" piece out of it. I then wrapped the foil around the clutch line at Cyl #2 . The cost was next to nothing and the time spent was about ten minutes. I am hoping that by providing a radiant heat shield to the clutch line that the fluid will last a little longer and the clutch "feel" will last longer. Edited February 14, 2015 by Du-Rron
V7Goose Posted February 15, 2015 #2 Posted February 15, 2015 Interesting post, but something just doesn't "smell" right about your problem. I have over 100,000 miles on my 2005 RSV, and I have never seen or heard of the problem that you have stated. And I can comfortably say I have worked on well over 100 of these bikes for various friends and associates, so I am pretty sure I would have run into the issue if it was typical. All clutch and brake fluids need to be changed every couple of years - that is even in your owner's manual. All systems have some vulnerability to moisture intrusion (primarily humidity in the air), and that is what causes DOT 3 or 4 fluids to turn brown. The more the master cylinder is actuated, the faster this contamination happens, so the clutch is more vulnerable. Normal use does show the clutch fluid on the RSV gets darker faster than the brake fluid, but never to the extent you claim within a two-year period, and CERTAINLY not 4 months and 5,000 miles! I cannot diagnose your bike remotely from this post, but I suggest you probably have a bad seal somewhere - most likely a problem with the gasket and fluid cover under the cap on the master cylinder. Goose
Seaking Posted February 15, 2015 #3 Posted February 15, 2015 Interesting post from both. I too suffer from early browning of my clutch fluid and I end up changing it out frequently in the summer riding season. Mind you, I do a lot of clutch riding during training courses as I demonstrate with my RSV so that puts more wear and tear on the clutch system than the usual rider. I hadn't thought of trying the shieding until I had seen the OP's message and will give that a try to see if it makes a difference this coming riding season.. Though I flush out my clutch system twice a year (simple enough to do it), in between flushes I would typically change out the reservoir fluid with a turkey baster to suck out the old and pour in fresh from the bottle new Dot4 fluid. I have new seals in the master cylinder and under the reservoir cap. I live on the coast (moisture) and ride in the rain a lot, which may contribute to the browning of the fluid through water contamination.. if it's not the heat causing it.
XV1100SE Posted February 16, 2015 #4 Posted February 16, 2015 What has your dealer said about the clutch fluid changing colour so quickly?
Condor Posted February 16, 2015 #5 Posted February 16, 2015 Sorry, but gotta agree with Goose. DOT 3&4 turn black when moisture is absorbed into the fluid. To get the stuff to turn black via heat the temp it would need to be close to combustion. The boiling point of DOT 4 is around 260degs with 3% moisture. Lots of moisture will cause the 'feel' of the clutch to soften, but not cause the clutch to grab. That's another issue. Mechanical. Moisture could be sucked into the master via a bad gasket when it cools at night and not show any evidence of a fluid leak. Even in a dry climate. A one way seal, or bad crush washer could be another possibility. Personally since the bike is still under warrantee I'd wait until the clutch starts to grab and then take it to the dealer. Don't say anything about the black fluid. Let them figure it out. If it starts doing it again, take it back until they get it right...
XV1100SE Posted February 16, 2015 #6 Posted February 16, 2015 ...If there is one thing I have learned, is that I don't know everything, which is why I will keep the words of V7Goose, XV1100SE and Condor close to heart when evaluating this clutch.... LOL - you don't know me too well. I work at Toyota and our plant makes Corolla, RAV4, and Lexus RX350 in the I.T. department. I'm not a mechanic but do my own work on the bike or have local members help me when I'm not sure of something. My knowledge on the Venture is from reading the forums and tech notes. Your clutch fluid changing colours so quickly isn't "the nature of the beast". What you have is an abnormal condition. Pretty sure I've done about 20,000 km since my last fluid change which included a 10,000 km trip that included a lot of clutch work (eg getting to the top of the Mt. Rushmore observation area, the Bear Tooth....) and although I'm due to change it in the spring, my fluid is slightly golden but not black. Your Venture is still under warranty until at least 2017 (5 years from original purchase). Explain to the dealer what has been happening and ask them to fix it. If they say it is normal for the Venture, then you need a new dealer.
V7Goose Posted February 16, 2015 #7 Posted February 16, 2015 [snip] The boiling point of DOT4 is around 350 wet and if you ever hit that just once, your brake fluid is toast. Interestingly, its flash point is just a little over 250 PMCC. Once you hit 250 you slowly start deteriorating your brake fluid. (see enclosed MSDS). At this point in time, I believe that a radiant heat problem may exist due to my riding style and the location of the clutch pipe 1" away from Cyl2. No harm, no foul by trying a no-cost heat shield for a few months to see what happens. I've got four years eight months and no miles limit warranty to figure it out if it starts becoming a real problem. Du-Rron, I do not doubt that you have experienced the problems you state - no reason to try and prove it to me. But if you HAVE experienced them, I DO believe there is something wrong with your bike. It is not where you live (I lived in Texas also for the first 100,000 miles on my RSV), and it is not how you ride (I rode to work daily in all weather, and I did lots of distance touring, including at least 3 different 1,000+ mile stretches in under 24 hours where the engine spent MANY hours straight pushing my loaded bike at 85-95 MPH). All I am trying to state is that you are not doing anything that thousands of other owners have not been doing, yet we do not experience the same thing. I do, however, believe that you have made a couple of misstatements and wrong assumptions about brake and clutch fluids. AFAIK brake fluids are absolutely NOT "toast" just because you hit the wet boiling point one time. This used to be a very common occurrence in the mountains, especially before DOT4 fluid was introduced. The significance of the "wet" figure is that old fluid that has absorbed moisture (that is what the "wet" means) will have the moisture convert to steam at that temp which basically makes your brakes totally unusable UNTIL the fluid cools down, then they behave normally again. I am not saying that heat cannot hurt brake fluid, just not the way you state. My last comment for you to consider is that there are many many riders who NEVER change their clutch fluid, even very high mileage riders, and despite the fact that it is called for every two years in the manual. And those individuals, despite having really nasty fluid in their bikes, STILL do not experience the problems you have stated. Just more evidence why I personally suspect you have a defect with your bike. If you want to ride out here to the southern mountains in New Mexico, I'll be happy to try and help you figure it out - and it is just possible I can give you quite a bit more info about this particular bike that you have not yet absorbed from this site. No mater what, I wish you the best of luck in resolving your problems. Goose
Du-Rron Posted February 16, 2015 Author #8 Posted February 16, 2015 LOL - you don't know me too well. I work at Toyota and our plant makes Corolla, RAV4, and Lexus RX350 in the I.T. department. I'm not a mechanic but do my own work on the bike or have local members help me when I'm not sure of something. My knowledge on the Venture is from reading the forums and tech notes. Your clutch fluid changing colours so quickly isn't "the nature of the beast". What you have is an abnormal condition. Pretty sure I've done about 20,000 km since my last fluid change which included a 10,000 km trip that included a lot of clutch work (eg getting to the top of the Mt. Rushmore observation area, the Bear Tooth....) and although I'm due to change it in the spring, my fluid is slightly golden but not black. Your Venture is still under warranty until at least 2017 (5 years from original purchase). Explain to the dealer what has been happening and ask them to fix it. If they say it is normal for the Venture, then you need a new dealer. I get my Venture knowledge from here as well. That is why I am here. I think my fluid was way past "golden" around the 2500 mile mark. Like I said earlier is that I will keep your words close to heart. I just can't take it to the dealership now since it has brand new fluid in it. I'll have to wait till it turns nasty again.
Du-Rron Posted February 17, 2015 Author #9 Posted February 17, 2015 Du-Rron, I do not doubt that you have experienced the problems you state - no reason to try and prove it to me. But if you HAVE experienced them, I DO believe there is something wrong with your bike. It is not where you live (I lived in Texas also for the first 100,000 miles on my RSV), and it is not how you ride (I rode to work daily in all weather, and I did lots of distance touring, including at least 3 different 1,000+ mile stretches in under 24 hours where the engine spent MANY hours straight pushing my loaded bike at 85-95 MPH). All I am trying to state is that you are not doing anything that thousands of other owners have not been doing, yet we do not experience the same thing. I do, however, believe that you have made a couple of misstatements and wrong assumptions about brake and clutch fluids. AFAIK brake fluids are absolutely NOT "toast" just because you hit the wet boiling point one time. This used to be a very common occurrence in the mountains, especially before DOT4 fluid was introduced. The significance of the "wet" figure is that old fluid that has absorbed moisture (that is what the "wet" means) will have the moisture convert to steam at that temp which basically makes your brakes totally unusable UNTIL the fluid cools down, then they behave normally again. I am not saying that heat cannot hurt brake fluid, just not the way you state. My last comment for you to consider is that there are many many riders who NEVER change their clutch fluid, even very high mileage riders, and despite the fact that it is called for every two years in the manual. And those individuals, despite having really nasty fluid in their bikes, STILL do not experience the problems you have stated. Just more evidence why I personally suspect you have a defect with your bike. If you want to ride out here to the southern mountains in New Mexico, I'll be happy to try and help you figure it out - and it is just possible I can give you quite a bit more info about this particular bike that you have not yet absorbed from this site. No mater what, I wish you the best of luck in resolving your problems. Goose Dear V7Goose: Right now everything is okay. Can't take it to the dealer now because the clutch fluid is new so I have to wait a while till it turns nasty again. => "and it is just possible I can give you quite a bit more info about this particular bike that you have not yet absorbed from this site." That is exactly why I am here. => "If you want to ride out here to the southern mountains in New Mexico, I'll be happy to try and help you figure it out" A ride to Mecca. That sounds very good. I haven't been there yet and would like to meet some of yall. Right now the clutch is working fine. But, I promise to give updates in the next few months/thousand miles and let you know what happens. I don't have a problem with getting the dealer to replace the entire hydraulics in the clutch system should it go south and I will keep yall informed as to how it turns out either way. Thank you for the offer!
XV1100SE Posted February 17, 2015 #10 Posted February 17, 2015 .... I just can't take it to the dealership now since it has brand new fluid in it. I'll have to wait till it turns nasty again. I wouldn't wait. Report it to the dealer and when they find the problem they'll refill with new fluid. Would hate to see you have problems on the road when a visit to the dealer could resolve the issue now and not give you a bad taste for the Venture. Being under warranty, you don't need to try to diagnose it yourself. I agree with V7Goose....I think he nailed it with what the problem is. The seal might "look" good, but there could be something you don't see visually. Let the dealer test it.
Du-Rron Posted February 17, 2015 Author #11 Posted February 17, 2015 I have Friday off. I will go there then.
V7Goose Posted February 17, 2015 #12 Posted February 17, 2015 I wouldn't wait. Report it to the dealer and when they find the problem they'll refill with new fluid. Would hate to see you have problems on the road when a visit to the dealer could resolve the issue now and not give you a bad taste for the Venture. Being under warranty, you don't need to try to diagnose it yourself. I agree with V7Goose....I think he nailed it with what the problem is. The seal might "look" good, but there could be something you don't see visually. Let the dealer test it. A bike that sat for several years could also have a problem with one of the rubber hoses. Even good rubber hoses allow air molecules (and the moisture) to pass through the pores in the rubber, so if one of the hoses is cracked or otherwise deffective, it could be really exacerbating the problem. Goose
bongobobny Posted February 19, 2015 #13 Posted February 19, 2015 OK I'll pipe in here as well. I was a senior electrohydraulic technician in the Aircraft division of Moog, Inc. (Inventors of the EHSV) before I retired but regardless of that, my '09 fluid is still clear as can be after 5 years. I'm finally going to replace it this spring only because of it's age. I took a sample by using a vacuum pump from the slave cylinder. Therefore I too am saying your condition is quite abnormal for these bikes...
Du-Rron Posted February 21, 2015 Author #14 Posted February 21, 2015 Wow... I can't even get clear fluid out of my truck after 2 years.... it's a tan color
bongobobny Posted February 21, 2015 #15 Posted February 21, 2015 Well, it's not perfectly clear, just a little tannish yellow but not bad like molasses colored...
flyday58 Posted February 21, 2015 #16 Posted February 21, 2015 ...If you want to ride out here to the southern mountains in New Mexico, I'll be happy to try and help you figure it out - and it is just possible I can give you quite a bit more info about this particular bike that you have not yet absorbed from this site... Moving to Cloudcroft in May, I'll be looking you up, V7Goose... Richard
Du-Rron Posted February 22, 2015 Author #17 Posted February 22, 2015 Went to dealer on Saturday. I know these guys. They offered to replace every seal/hose from master cylinder to slave all at once, ...she-bang. We then had a chat about finding the possible one component that would most likely be causing the problem and if we changed all the variables at once we would never know what it was. Outcome was dealer ordered master cylinder diaphragm and will replace it and re-bleed clutch (just for the heck of it) when part comes in next week. If at any time in the future I don't like it, then next step is mastercylinder piston kit, then hose, then slave kit. Wash Rinse Repeat as necessary. Right now, since the clutch fluid is a week old, the clutch is working perfectly. New master cyl diaphragm & clutch fluid will be installed next week and then we will "play" with it for a while. The mechanic we had inspected clutch and since it was good, other than my report of previously nasty fluid and grabby clutch with said nasty fluid, he couldn't find anything wrong with it. No creep, full disengagement, no slip when feathered in fourth and then re-engaged at speed, slick shifts and no leaks.
Du-Rron Posted March 8, 2015 Author #18 Posted March 8, 2015 Under the wise direction of @V7Goose @Condor & @XV1100SE the dealer replaced the master cylinder diaphragm and the clutch was flushed/bled again on 3-6-15. Right now, the clutch is working perfectly and has absolutely clean, clear, new, fluid in it. Now we will see what happens after a few miles. A shout out of appreciation to Levi & Jon of Family Power Sports, San Angelo, TX.
Du-Rron Posted March 20, 2015 Author #20 Posted March 20, 2015 Interesting post from both. I too suffer from early browning of my clutch fluid and I end up changing it out frequently in the summer riding season. Mind you, I do a lot of clutch riding during training courses as I demonstrate with my RSV so that puts more wear and tear on the clutch system than the usual rider. I hadn't thought of trying the shieding until I had seen the OP's message and will give that a try to see if it makes a difference this coming riding season.. Though I flush out my clutch system twice a year (simple enough to do it), in between flushes I would typically change out the reservoir fluid with a turkey baster to suck out the old and pour in fresh from the bottle new Dot4 fluid. I have new seals in the master cylinder and under the reservoir cap. I live on the coast (moisture) and ride in the rain a lot, which may contribute to the browning of the fluid through water contamination.. if it's not the heat causing it. Lookie what I found from Yamaha.
dingy Posted March 20, 2015 #21 Posted March 20, 2015 Just a thought on the heat convection to the brake line. The rear brake has a similar close encounter with right front exhaust, but Yamaha put a shield over it in that area. Maybe it was a cost decision not to do the front line on the RSV's. The front line is farther away, I believe, but still close. Item #40 in picture. Gary
Du-Rron Posted March 20, 2015 Author #22 Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Just a thought on the heat convection to the brake line. The rear brake has a similar close encounter with right front exhaust, but Yamaha put a shield over it in that area. Maybe it was a cost decision not to do the front line on the RSV's. The front line is farther away, I believe, but still close. Item #40 in picture. Gary So far no problems with rear brake fluid. Since I initially wrote this article about a month ago, the clutch fluid has been bled/flushed about 3 times. One time by me, one time by the dealership when they replaced the diaphragm, and just last week again by me when I installed the @skydoc_17 Clutch Upgrade kit. So, this thing has been through about fifty gallons of brake fluid in the last month and I have worn out the screws on the Master Cylinder ( Anyways, I really never had a problem with the clutch operation when using new fluid, just after 5k on the old fluid when it got black and nasty. Thought I would put a heat shield on to try and stop a little radiant heat from getting to the fluid from the exhaust pipe and turning it dark so quick, as I can do nothing about the conductive heat of the slave cylinder. Thank you for the "heads up" on the rear brake fluid though. Edited March 20, 2015 by Du-Rron
Du-Rron Posted September 1, 2015 Author #23 Posted September 1, 2015 So, I am not putting on the miles as fast as I though I would due to new job since April. Oh well. So the bike has 9500 miles on it now and it is getting very hard to find neutral. When I do ride around, I usually do it at a speedometer indicated 85mph or GPS indicated 80MPH in over 100 degree heat the past few weeks. The clutch fluid is nasty looking ... kinda like weak coffee. Today, I changed out the clutch fluid again. Now, all is right with the world.
videoarizona Posted September 3, 2015 #24 Posted September 3, 2015 Interesting conversation. I had my clutch fluid replaced at beginning of summer. Not that many miles since then but been riding in hot weather...this is Arizona! My fluid is darker than the front brake fluid changed at same time. So either I have a leaky gasket or the heat is getting to the slave cylinder. Shifting seems fine though....but going to keep an eye on things.
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