No power to Fuel Pump after carb rebuild, it worked fine before I started

[Vonwolf]

My bike has been sitting for the last 5 years and I'm trying to get her back on the road. I removed the carbs to clean and check them and installed a new fuel filter. While I was waiting on parts I tackled the breaks and clutch, the plastics were already taken off the front of the bike. I didn't mess with the wiring at all other than moving the dangling plugs, wires, and TCI module so I could get to what was behind them, not too gracefully I'm sure. The pump worked fine before I took the carbs off and pulled the pump out to change the filter, now I turn the key on and nothing so I checked for power at the connection, none, the neutral light, computer test, volt meter and even the horn seem to work, but there is no power getting to the old glass fuse box, I checked at the 2 screws and 0 power, I pulled the fuse off to the right in that rubber coupler and the fuse was blown, even though there is no power there now. I put the spare fuse in just for the hell of it and it did nothing, of course. All these wires !! What did I hit, Pull, Yank? Things were working just fine then I work my magic and instant 12 volt hell. I'm hoping this sounds familiar to someone that can actually make sense of this spaghetti nightmare

 

Thanks

[Prairiehammer]

but there is no power getting to the old glass fuse box, I checked at the 2 screws and 0 power

 

The two screws you allude to, is the accessory power tap. If the ACC fuse is blown, there will be no power there. Finding no power at the accessory taps, does not mean there is no power to the fuse block. Check for power at one of the other fuses.

 

 

I pulled the fuse off to the right in that rubber coupler and the fuse was blown, even though there is no power there now.

 

I believe you are referring to the CLASS fuse holder. Whether that fuse is blown or not is irrelevant to your current issue. What IS relevant though, is your discovery of no battery voltage at that holder; because that CLASS fuse is fed from the main switch (ignition key switch).

 

The fuel pump will not get power if the ignition switch is at any position other than ON. Double check the ignition switch connectors for secure connection. Cycle the ignition switch through its positions, while observing voltage at the input to the IGNition fuse. Place your VOM leads on the clip of the fuse holder. Check for voltage on the output side of the IGNition fuse. If the IGNition fuse continuity is bad, whether due to a blown fuse or poor electrical connections, the fuel pump will not run.

 

Finally, or perhaps firstly, check the 'kill' switch.

[flyday58]

When you say 'glass fuse box', do you specifically mean the ignition 15 amp fuse? It was the one fuse in my old box that had broken, making intermittent contact. Also take a pic of your 'spaghetti nightmare' and post it here. May not help but, ya know, we're all nosy...

 

Kevin is right in everything. My wiring had been butchered by the PO so broken or badly-patched wires are a real possibility, too. But start with the easy things first as he suggested.

[dna9656]

I ditched the old fuse panel and got a 8 circuit ATO (modern auto fuse style) fuse box on line. I mover ALL the fuses to this panel, to include the in-line ones. Best thing I ever did to the electrical system as it makes finding a blown fuse a snap (Aww I made a funny! fuses SNAP when they blow!) whether I'm at home or on the road. I carry a ATO fuse tester on the bike, it has a light in it...I marked the fuse locations with the names of the circuits they serve with a label maker. The new fuse box rides rightwhere the old one did. Check my prev. posts for pics.

[Vonwolf]

The two screws you allude to, is the accessory power tap. If the ACC fuse is blown, there will be no power there. Finding no power at the accessory taps, does not mean there is no power to the fuse block. Check for power at one of the other fuses.

 

Do you know where the ACC fuse is? The 2 screws don't have power but after a great deal of cleaning I've got power to all but 1, the fuse block is shot and will be replaced soon

 

 

 

I believe you are referring to the CLASS fuse holder. Whether that fuse is blown or not is irrelevant to your current issue. What IS relevant though, is your discovery of no battery voltage at that holder; because that CLASS fuse is fed from the main switch (ignition key switch).

 

The fuel pump will not get power if the ignition switch is at any position other than ON. Double check the ignition switch connectors for secure connection. Cycle the ignition switch through its positions, while observing voltage at the input to the IGNition fuse. Place your VOM leads on the clip of the fuse holder. Check for voltage on the output side of the IGNition fuse. If the IGNition fuse continuity is bad, whether due to a blown fuse or poor electrical connections, the fuel pump will not run.

 

Finally, or perhaps firstly, check the 'kill' switch.

 

I'll give all these a shot, I'm not really clear where the ignition fuse is because I don't think this is an original fuse block, it doesn't seem to match up to the RSV schematics I have. Eventually it's all going to have to be changed out but I have to actually hear the bike run before I sink too much money into it.

 

 

Just a little history-

I worked on the bike Saturday, I cleaned up some of the various connections as everything is really corroded, I checked for power at most of the relays, some had power to one side some didn't. After messing with the wires for a while I did a quick check on the fuel pump and it was working but now the dash lights didn't come on, no neutral light, computer test, volt meter or horn but the fuel pump works? The wiring on these bikes are some of the most difficult I've ever dealt with and the starter is all but useless if it doesn't fire right off you’re done. If the bike gets running good I will do either the ground wire mod or get a 2nd gen starter. I have to get the starter button to work be for I do anything, I have had to jump the solenoid to start the motor. I got it so I could hold the start button and jump the solenoid for just a second then the starter button would work, even that little workaround stopped working for a while, but it seems to magically work again.

I don't really know what the PO did to these fuses, the block with the glass fuses has 5 mismatched fuses some too long and some too short, they don't always make contact. The fuse to the right is for the CLASS, but power seems to be intermittent. There is also a plastic blade 4 fuse holder that is really corroded, it’s taken some time but I’ve got power going across most of them, but I will change this mess out if the bike runs. From what I can see on the wiring schematic it looks like there should be a fuse block with 9 fuses on it plus the CLASS fuse, but like I said I have no idea what the Previous owners have done to the bike

As of right now everything seems to be working, I have no idea why but I’ll take it. I know I have to clean every plug, union, relay and anything else I can find. The starter button is a complete mystery to me, I have tried everything I could read and I can’t get it to work, I have a switch that jumps the solenoid and as long as I have the start button pressed it works, once I let up on the start button nothing happens unless I give the solenoid a quick jump then the start button catches again. It’s not right so it bothers me, but it’s as close as I’ve been able to get to work normally, so I have to live with it for now

[Prairiehammer]

Attached find an annotated pic of the stock First Gen Venture Royale (please don't call it a "RSV") showing the fuse block as from the factory. Also attached is a pic of my refurbished fuse block. Note at the top of the pic the black plastic box emblazoned with "FUSE". This stock fuse block has four ATC fuses in it (audio backup, audio CB, fan, hazard). Your schematic has combined the five glass fuse block and the four ATC fuse block into one nine fuse block. As you can see, that is not how it actually is.

 

I will recommend that before you spend much more time on this bike's electrical gremlins, that you upgrade the fuse block. Once you have that upgraded, then subsequent problems will be narrowed down to discrete connections and/or switches.

[Vonwolf]

Thanks for the Picture Kevin, mine looks somewhat like yours only no labels. heavy corrosion, fuses too long/short and nowhere as neat as yours. The labels are a huge help, it takes a lot of guesswork out of things. I do have to replace this fusebox with something, there's no doubt it's the source of manny of my intermittent power loss issues, so I agree it's best to do this sooner rather than later. I can see that the 2 screws are fed by the 10A ACC fuse but that's the one fuse I can't get power to. it looks like it's fed off the main switch so I have a place to start at least. I'm starting to make some sense out of the wiring. butI still have that nagging starter issue. mabee some other day

[flyday58]

I read back over your posts but didn't see, have you checked for 12v at the solenoid with the starter button pushed? If it's there then that points to a problem at the solenoid. No power then it's upstream somewhere. The "flasher relay" also contains a starting circuit cut-off relay; I had issues with the wires going into the plug for it. It's behind the headlight with the other relays somewhere, mine was just sitting there.

[Vonwolf]

I read back over your posts but didn't see, have you checked for 12v at the solenoid with the starter button pushed? If it's there then that points to a problem at the solenoid. No power then it's upstream somewhere. The "flasher relay" also contains a starting circuit cut-off relay; I had issues with the wires going into the plug for it. It's behind the headlight with the other relays somewhere, mine was just sitting there.

 

 

Thanks for the help, this is a major reason the bike sat for 5 years, well that and I had 4 different kinds of cancer, but I got better the bike is up to its old tricks. I have 12 V to the solenoid, but pushing the starter button does nothing. The flasher relay seems like a strange place to put the starting circuit cut off relay and I have no idea how to test it but I bought a used one off eBay in 2010, there is a chance it had the same problem as mine and I've been chasing the same bad relay as before, it's kind of unlikely but I'm not the luckiest guy in the world. I even bought the whole right-hand assembly from a trusted form member just to make sure the start button was good and still I push start and nothing, not a click, no lights dimming nothing at all. If the Cut-Off Relay in the Flasher Relay assembly was activated would it make a "clicking" sound, I really don't know but when I push start there is not a sound. I took the start switch apart to clean things up and with the key on I had continuity of the blue/white wire at the solenoid with the b/w wire at the start switch, when I pushed the starter button I had continuity at the ground wire and the B/W wire on the solenoid. I'm pretty confused here because I thought that's what the starter switch does, it grounds out the Blue/White wire and the solenoid is activated? I know I'm missing something here if anyone could point me in the right direction

 

 

This post is kind of morphing into a list of electrical problems I'm running into and most importantly things I'm going to change to correct them. I'm taking Kevins advice and changing the fuse block out to the modern ATO 12 slot block. Much of my problems were caused be loose and corroded fuse connections. I still don't have power to the ACC or the CLASS fuses so I'll have to track them down. This starter issue has been a thorn in my side for almost as long as I've owned the bike and its kept me from using the bike very much. I want a dependable ride not something I have to worry about every time shut the motor off. I know these bikes can be great road bikes and thats what I'm looking for

Edited February 17, 2015 by Vonwolf

[Prairiehammer]

...I thought that's what the starter switch does, it grounds out the Blue/White wire and the solenoid is activated?

 

That is true, IF the Starting Circuit Cut-Off Relay coil is energized. The SCCR coil is energized through the IGNITION fuse (Brown input, Red/White output) and then through the kill switch. Do you have battery voltage after the IGNITION fuse on the Red/White wire?

[flyday58]

Thanks for the help, this is a major reason the bike sat for 5 years, well that and I had 4 different kinds of cancer, but I got better the bike is up to its old tricks. I have 12 V to the solenoid, but pushing the starter button does nothing. The flasher relay seems like a strange place to put the starting circuit cut off relay and I have no idea how to test it but I bought a used one off eBay in 2010, there is a chance it had the same problem as mine and I've been chasing the same bad relay as before, it's kind of unlikely but I'm not the luckiest guy in the world. I even bought the whole right-hand assembly from a trusted form member just to make sure the start button was good and still I push start and nothing, not a click, no lights dimming nothing at all. If the Cut-Off Relay in the Flasher Relay assembly was activated would it make a "clicking" sound, I really don't know but when I push start there is not a sound. I took the start switch apart to clean things up and with the key on I had continuity of the blue/white wire at the solenoid with the b/w wire at the start switch, when I pushed the starter button I had continuity at the ground wire and the B/W wire on the solenoid. I'm pretty confused here because I thought that's what the starter switch does, it grounds out the Blue/White wire and the solenoid is activated? I know I'm missing something here if anyone could point me in the right direction

 

 

This post is kind of morphing into a list of electrical problems I'm running into and most importantly things I'm going to change to correct them. I'm taking Kevins advice and changing the fuse block out to the modern ATO 12 slot block. Much of my problems were caused be loose and corroded fuse connections. I still don't have power to the ACC or the CLASS fuses so I'll have to track them down. This starter issue has been a thorn in my side for almost as long as I've owned the bike and its kept me from using the bike very much. I want a dependable ride not something I have to worry about every time shut the motor off. I know these bikes can be great road bikes and thats what I'm looking for

Sent you a pm.

[Vonwolf]

That is true, IF the Starting Circuit Cut-Off Relay coil is energized. The SCCR coil is energized through the IGNITION fuse (Brown input, Red/White output) and then through the kill switch. Do you have battery voltage after the IGNITION fuse on the Red/White wire?

 

I'm going to have to check the voltage, but I before I let it sit al those years I just bypassed all the starter switch and ran a 12v 12ga jumper to the + side of the solenoid directly to the + Battery terminal, if it didn't start right off then the wires melted. Now I can't remember what the correct way to wire up the solenoid, does anyone have a picture of the top of a solenoid it might jar some rocks loose in my brain

[Prairiehammer]

I'm going to have to check the voltage, but I before I let it sit al those years I just bypassed all the starter switch and ran a 12v 12ga jumper to the + side of the solenoid directly to the + Battery terminal, if it didn't start right off then the wires melted. Now I can't remember what the correct way to wire up the solenoid, does anyone have a picture of the top of a solenoid it might jar some rocks loose in my brain

 

[Neil86]

Not sure if this will help but a few things that I might have missed reading through here...

 

The CLASS fuse will only see power when the key is in the ACC position, it is fed from a single Red/Blue wire from Ignition switch.

 

The ACC fuse and the AUDIO fuse are fed by a separate Red/Black wire from switch and have power in either the ACC or ON positions.

[Vonwolf]

Not sure if this will help but a few things that I might have missed reading through here...

 

The CLASS fuse will only see power when the key is in the ACC position, it is fed from a single Red/Blue wire from Ignition switch.

 

The ACC fuse and the AUDIO fuse are fed by a separate Red/Black wire from switch and have power in either the ACC or ON positions.

 

Thanks I forgot about the CLASS only having power in ACC position, I'll have to check that out. The Red/Black wire is giving me a hard time, but I'm sure I'll get it someday. The pictures of the solenoid is exactly what I needed, now I just have to undo my "workaround" and try to get the start button to work right, I hope I have mere success than I had the last time. Something is strange with this start button, it should be working, lots of fun

[Vonwolf]

I checked for power at the ignition, the main red wire was good. When I turned the key to "on" the brown wire got hot but not the red/black or the Blue wires and when I turned to "ACC" I still get no power from the Red/Blue wire, so I'm guessing the key switch itself must have problems. Knowing nothing about the inner workings of the ignition switch I of course took it apart, they make that job quite difficult and it was cold as hell outside so I kind of rushed things. When I got those 2 screws out at the bottom I didn't expect all the internal parts to flop out, I hope the 3 pieces I saw come out was the whole thing, I didn't see any springs go flying out so once I figure what order and what faces up I'll have it made. The contacts are green so I'm hoping they weren't making contact and a good cleaning will solve my problems, I've read all kinds of ignition problems and bypasses but from what I can tell those problems were with the Gen II's I didn't see anything on the Gen I's, if this doesn't work I'll have to figure out some kind of bypass, but I'm pretty sure if I can get the ignition back together correctly I should have power that's the theory anyway

[flyday58]

...and it was cold as hell outside so...

In Ft. Myers?? We ain't buyin' it!!

[Venturous Randy]

If any wire is getting "hot" you appear to have a load or ground problem to me.

Randy

[Vonwolf]

In Ft. Myers?? We ain't buyin' it!!

 

You got me there, its nothing like they have it up north, but I left the north and the cold a long time ago so it was colder than I wanted to be. I wasn't expecting the guts of the ignition to fall out when I took those 2 tiny screws out, I was thinking "man its cold" instead of watching what I was doing, so I wasn't real confident the ignition was going back together right. When I said the Brown wire was "hot" I only meant it had 12 volts going to it although the heat would have been nice at the time.

In spite of the brutal cold I somehow managed to clean all the contacts, put the ignition switch back together and now I have power to all the circuits that were previously dead, the fuse block is still junk but at least one side has power