87 Venture Royale front wobble

[Gearhead]

Hello Venture-ing friends! I've been scarce on this forum lately but still lurk now and then and still ride my old 87 Venture. I've discussed this some time back and did a quick search before typing this, but I want to ask again about the old subject of front end wobble. Not the hiway speed wobble that happens at 70+ mph (don't have that), but the low-mid speed wobble that happens around 35 mph and is worst when decelerating, and is normally not a problem as long as my hands are on the bars (where they belong anyway). My past experience indicates this is usually front-end related, normally tied to front tire wear and/or balance. My Virago will get a little bit of it on an old front tire, but it always goes away completely when that is replaced. I could ride all day on that bike with my hands in the air if I so desired! Not that I do that sort of thing...

 

Not so with the Venture. It seems prone to this issue, and gets worse with front tire wear, sometimes to the point where even with my hands on the bars I'll feel it shake a little at times. In the past, I've had a new tire cure the problem but only for a very short time; a couple thousand miles later it was starting already. This time I had a bunch of deferred work on the bike and it was off the road for several months. Recently got it back up and it's a blast to ride with new parts and adjustments...but...the front wobble is very present, the worst it's ever been with a new front tire. This work included:

- New front tire (not rear) E3's. Note that this E3 required the most wheel weight I've ever used to balance a bike tire.

- New Steering head bearings. Torqued tight at first while turning bars back and forth (to seat races), then backed off and brought it up to factory specs (2.5-3 ft lbs or so, IIRC). More info on this below.

- Change fork oil

- Checked front wheel bearings, they were fine.

 

Other work I've done in the past, along with other possibly relevant info:

- Run 38-40 psi in tires

- Progressive rear shock and fork springs

- Rear suspension - some new bushings, all greased

- Superbike fork brace

- I've tried various torques on the steering head bearings before, as some here have had success with this issue by overtorquing them. It has never helped for me.

 

Nothing I've ever done to it save replacing the front tire has ever made any difference in this front-end wobble. I've read about it here, and my dad has similar experience with his 2001 Kawi Voyager. It seems this type of bike's geometry and weight distrubution may make it prone to such behavior. But I can't help but think there has to be a way to make it better.

 

Has anyone ever installed a steering damper? I've only seen these on sportbikes.

 

What am I missing here?

 

Thanks, Jeremy

[Peder_y2k]

Check to see if there is any front brake grab. A warped or misaligned disc can cause a momentary unbalanced braking action leading to wobble under certain operating conditions.

Also, your wheel balancing may not be as accurate as you think.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

Edited February 7, 2015 by Peder_y2k
syntax error

[mralex714]

Wheel bearings maybe

[flyday58]

I'm with Peder to start. I'd get the front wheel off the ground and spin the heck out of it, looking for a grabby rotor or brake. I'd also look at that balancing closely, see if it has a heavy spot it seems to like. You should be able to see an out-of-round condition while it turns, it it has one, and trueness of the wheel, rubbing fender, all that kind of stuff.

[Marcarl]

Don't over torque the triple tree. If you read the manual I think you'll be surprised at how little torque it takes. Don't worry about the clamps being too loose, the forks can't go anywhere.

[OrlinEngh]

I had a 84 and a 92 that did the same thing and both were the steering head bearings were to tight.

[cowpuc]

All great advice so far..

Might try - Check your tire air pressures!. Find a place where you can ride the bike a couple miles without having to use your brakes. Stop and take a rubber mallet and smack each front caliper a couple times on their sides enough so you can freely feel the calipers move around when you shake them with your hand (you are just moving the pistons in a little so the pads are away from the rotors). Now do the rear set so all the rotors are free floating.. Ride the bike up to the speed that it is doing the wobble. If its free of wobble, starting with the rear brake - apply pedal and come to a stop. DO NOT USE FRONT BRAKE.. Go back up to speed and see if wobble has returned - if it has you have either a left front brake hanging up a little or rear brake. If it still doesnt wobble, do same with front brake and check for wobble..

[cowpuc]

Oh, by the way,, I gotta agree with you,, from one Gear Head to another - that wobble nonsense takes a lot of the fun out of standing on the pegs, steering with the knees and going no handed!! Not that either of us should or would ever do such a thing!!

[Gearhead]

Yeah Puc, it sure does! Thanks guys for the ideas. I'll take another look.

[skydoc_17]

Hey Jeremy,

You have done a LOT of fine work to your bike, that's for sure! With all of the mentioned items you have addressed, there is only one thing left that would cause the issue you are describing, and that is the set of bushings that are located in the upper section of the Aluminum Fork Tube. What is happening is the Aluminum Lower Fork Tubes, and the front wheel are swaying back and forth because the bushings in the lower fork tubes have excessive play in them. You didn't mention how many miles you have on your 87'VR, but you can see this to some degree in as little as 30,000 miles. I am guessing that you have 50,000 to 60,000 plus miles on your bike, and this is why you are seeing it most of the time now. Part of the reason for this issue is that the upper fork tubes were designed for a much lighter bike. That combined with the shallow fork rake of this motorcycle tend to wear out the springs and lower fork bushings a lot sooner than a smaller, lighter motorcycle. Because you will be separating the Aluminum lower fork tubes from the steel upper fork tubes, if you have not already done so, I highly suggest that you replace the fork seals at the same time. I personally only use the Yamaha fork seals, some have had good luck with the aftermarket ones, but not many. Because this is not a "fun" repair, I wouldn't want to do it all over again after 2 years because I didn't install the best seals I could get. Unless of course, you enjoy taking the entire front end of your motorcycle apart, "just for fun"! (Some do!) If you need help with parts, or have questions about the install, please feel free to contact me.

Good luck with this project Jeremy!

Earl

[BlueSky]

 

this is the Yamaha video that shows how to adjust the front forks about half way through the video.

[Gearhead]

Hey Earl, that makes sense. My bike actually had 115,000 miles on it! I may have done the fork bushings before, I can't remember. I'll have to check my maintenance record. But I'm pretty sure I can feel a small amount of play between the sliders and fork tubes. I'll check it out.

 

I've had similar experience with fork seals, BTW. Factory last much better. But you know what makes the biggest difference of all in terms of fork seal longevity? Using fork tube protectors to keep the dead bugs and rocks away from the sliding surfaces of the fork tubes.

 

Now I just realized I have a leak in the flex hydraulic hose down by the clutch slave cylinder. The battle never ends!

 

Jeremy

[Gearhead]

And Bluesky, that's a cool vid! And the dated look is kinda entertaining ;-)

[Gearhead]

Well, I've had this bike since 45,000 miles to its current 115,000 miles, and never replaced the fork bushings OR seals! I'm telling you, fork protectors are the key for the seals. As for the bushings, Earl, have you personally seen a front wobble repaired by replacing them?

[skydoc_17]

Hey Jeremy,

First off, 115,000 miles is excellent life on the fork seals and lower fork tube bushings! With that being said, the lower bushings are no longer offered from Yamaha, but not to worry, the real wear takes place at the top of the lower fork tubes, so replacing the upper bushings should do the trick. Now, seeing as I have NEVER seen or ridden your motorcycle, I am playing the "armchair quarterback" here. But I can honestly say that after rebuilding over 40 First Gen. Front Fork Assemblies, and owning two First Gens. myself, This would be the direction I would go in if this were MY bike! Only you know if you have a warped rotor, or a tire with a "bad spot" in it, or a caliper that needs a rebuild, but if you feel sure that the above items are NOT causing your front end wobble, then at 115,000 miles I would say that at the very least, your front end will be a lot tighter after a lower fork tube rebuild and seal replacement. Because my 87'VR has been "hopped up" a bit, my lower fork tubes started acting up at a mere 65,000 miles. I did springs, block off plates and changed the fork oil and still struggled with the front end wobble until I changed out those bushings. So I am able to say that it solved the issue for me on my personal bike. It has worked for others as well. (note the 40 rebuilds above) There are a finite number of wear parts in the front end of the Venture, it seems as if you have either replaced, inspected, or upgraded all of them except those bushings.

Earl

[Gearhead]

Thanks!

 

Block off plates - are those to eliminate the EANDS on the forks? Why do this? Is there a consensus that it doesn't work?

[bongobobny]

Thanks!

 

Block off plates - are those to eliminate the EANDS on the forks? Why do this? Is there a consensus that it doesn't work?

Hooo Boy, did you ever open a can of worms there...

[Prairiehammer]

Thanks!

 

Block off plates - are those to eliminate the EANDS on the forks? Why do this? Is there a consensus that it doesn't work?

 

There IS a consensus that the block-off plates on the MKI (1983-1985) help provide a better brake feel and may improve the handling by firming the suspension.

 

There is NO consensus that the block-off plates, when installed on the MKII (1986-1993, with EAND) are an improvement. In fact, some have discovered that installing block-off plates in place of the EAND has caused an extremely harsh ride. Since the EAND has no effect on braking feel or performance (as opposed to the MKI hydraulic anti-dive) the primary advantage to disabling the MKII EAND, whether by installing block-off plates or by simply unplugging the EAND solenoids, is the elimination of the significant electrical load when the EAND is activated.

[Gearhead]

Ah. Thanks for the thorough explanation!