Ignition woes (maybe)≥÷

[flyday58]

It never ends, this shinola. Wanted to do a 50-miler today to start working up to a road trek, weather cooperating, up in the 50s. Left the house, went two miles to a gas station. As I was coasting up to the pump she just unceremoniously up and quit. Like I hit the kill switch.

 

After the fork rebuild, triple tree grease job, clutch slave cylinder replace and assorted small jobs it also did this after it warmed up the first time. Just sitting in the driveway idling, then it just died. Ran the battery down trying to start it, so put the charger on and it fired off again after a couple minutes. Figured the battery had gotten down in the cold and down time since before Christmas and that it didn't leave enough juice for ignition.

 

Then today it happened again. I have started my flyaway kit and had a socket set and a combo screwdriver in the trunk, so removed the top cover to look at the fuses and connections again. I know I have a broken spade on the ignition fuse, but it also controls the starter, which spins just fine. Tried wiggling wires and anything I could reach while cranking, no luck. Decided maybe it was a charging issue so I unplugged the headlight, put everything together again and suited up, just in case, hoping that maybe there would be enough volts without the headlight to get back home.

 

She fired up, so I hopped on and prayed that the 3 lights between me and home would be green. They were, and I made it a mile before she quit again. Pushed it to a school parking lot, and this time I pulled the tail light bulbs. JUST TO GET HOME Y'ALL!! Anyway, she fired back up and I made it within 3 houses of home. Do-able.

 

I've looked at everything including: the emergency cutoff switch, the side stand switch and relay, the wiring to the fuse block and TCI (Ignitech), I have a Radioshack digital meter but I'm beginning to suspect its voracity. Rode around the block for about 10 minutes with it hooked to the battery. I get 13.5 volts idling, then it drops to around 13.1 around 3000 rpm. Dash gauge shows the drop, too. I checked the resistance on the pickup coils and got 136, 272,272, and 267 ohms respectively, book says should be 110± 10%. So those are way off. Think I'll cruise by Radio Shack and see if they can check the accuracy of my meter...

 

So there you have it, sorry for the long post. I've looked for corrosion and loose or broken wires. Battery is right at a year old and freshly serviced with acid. Still suspecting it's a charging problem the way the voltmeter is acting. I haven't check the voltage regulator yet but that's my next step. Thanks for your help!

 

Richard

[Eck]

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/links-to-classifieds-craigslist-and-ebay/89574-ignition-pass-relay.html?highlight=ignition+pass

[MasterGuns]

The 83 I've working on has 14.1 volts at the battery at 2500 rpm. I think you should be chasing a charging problem.

[Flyinfool]

:sign yeah that:

Low voltage can make other things look bad

[MiCarl]

:sign yeah that:

Low voltage can make other things look bad

 

Me three.

 

Voltage is low, you hit the brakes. brake lights come on -> motorcycle dies.

[djh3]

Thanks for the plug Eck. But the by-pas is for 2nd gen. Maybe a fuel pump issue.

[Eck]

Thanks for the plug Eck. But the by-pas is for 2nd gen. Maybe a fuel pump issue.

 

Ah ha djh3, I didn't look to see what gen bike he had...my bad...

[djh3]

No problem. I guess they had better electrical engeners for the 1st gen. Have not heard of a 1st gen burning up a switch.

[flyday58]

All the diodes in the regulator checked good, but the book says if all else looks okay then change it. Will check for corroded wires, connectors, bad grounds and so on, but barring that is a bad regulator more likely than the alternator? I know less than 14 volts is a bad sign. And thanks for the clarification on the ignition bypass.

:sign yeah that:

Low voltage can make other things look bad

True dat. Went through a lot of headaches on the air-cooled 70s Yamaha twins that usually led back to low volts or a low battery. It's why I started pulling bulbs to get the bike back home yesterday. And I wasn't having this problem before the fork rebuild etc so I'm going back over all that. Thanks for all the replies!

[Flyinfool]

Before you start throwing money at the problem.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/general-tech-library-read-only-/81297-testing-battery-charging.html

[MiCarl]

Just some clarification for you:

 

When you checked diodes you were checking the rectifier portion of the Regulator/Rectifier. You're not checking the voltage regulator circuit.

 

Basically, if the diode test fails you know the regulator/rectifier is bad. But passing the test doesn't mean it is good.

[flyday58]

Just some clarification for you:

 

When you checked diodes you were checking the rectifier portion of the Regulator/Rectifier. You're not checking the voltage regulator circuit.

 

Basically, if the diode test fails you know the regulator/rectifier is bad. But passing the test doesn't mean it is good.

Yep, that's why I said if everything else checks out that I'd change it.

Jeff, thanks for the link, it's exactly what I need. Running out of time, they actually want me to come to work so it will be next Sunday before I can get back to this. Will keep everyone...ya know...

[frankd]

The regulators on Gen 1s are pretty durable. I have seen one bad, but stator and connector problems are much more common. Unplug the white wires from the regulator and inspect them carefully and make sure none are burnt. Take an ohmeter and measure the white wires going to the stator. All 3 combinations (1-2, 2-3 & 1-3) should measure equal to each other. Touch your meter leads together, and read you ohmeter. It'll probably indicate .1 or .2 ohm. This is the resistance in your meter's leads, and you need to subtract this reading from the measured resistance from the stator leads. BTW, spec. for this is .42 ohm @ 68 degrees F. Then put connect your black ohmeter lead to engine ground and the read lead to one of the white stator leads---this should measure open (infinity). If your stator passes these tests, it still may be bad. With the regulator plug still disconnected, start the bike, and have somebody watch the tach and hold the bike @ 2000 RPM. Put your meter on AC volts, and measure the voltage between the 3 pairs of white wires---The should be approximately equal. If one set measures 80VAC and another set measures 15VAC, you have a shorted turn in your stator (bad).

[BlueSky]

Just a thought. Check your car battery just to try to be sure your volt meter is working properly. Some meters will be incorrect if the battery in the meter isn't strong. In the case I'm thinking about my meter read high with a weak battery, so that is probably not an issue. It read a car battery at 18 volts! Ha!

[flyday58]

So far: Checked my truck batteries and both read 12.5 volts with my meter, so suspect the meter is good. Thanks to BlueSky.

 

Diodes check good. Stator reads .4 to .5 ohms 1-2, 1-3, 2-3. Bike running at 2100 rpm, stator reads 52 volts 1-2, 1-3, 2-3. My battery to solenoid lead has corrosion under the sheath near the crimp for the battery connector, but not on the red primary wire, just the copper mesh lead. Red lead shows 0.0 ohms.

 

Found a couple wires on the TCI harness cut through the insulation, specifically the gray and black wires. Repaired.

 

Battery is on a 2A charge till late tonight to get a deep charge as Jeff suggested. When I get home I'll have it load tested.

 

Jeff's test procedure didn't specify whether to plug the regulator-side of the RR up or not, so tested the stator both ways. Same results, except the RR got noticeably warm when plugged in. Suspect that to be normal.

 

Quick test run after wire repairs and stator checks yield the same results. Around 13.4 volts at idle decreasing to 13.1 on throttle up and then rising again back at idle. If I run around 4000 revs then chop the throttle, the volts temporarily rise to almost 14 before decreasing back to around 13.4.

 

All I can get done today. Leave tmro for 5 days so will get back on it Sunday. Hope y'all all have a good week.

Richard

[frankd]

If your regulator got warm, your stator is producing power. A long time ago, I had a similar problem with my 83. I measured the voltage at one of the red wires coming out of the regulator with the engine running. On mine it measured normal (14.5V plus or minus .5V) but at the battery I had less. I found the mounting screws for the main fuse link were a bit loose, causing a high resistance connection. Tightened them up and everything was fine. The main fuse is on the left side of the battery, and get to the fuse link, you have to open the housing. After you get it apart, loosen both mounting screws and then re-tighten them and that will clean some of the oxide off the connections.

[flyday58]

If your regulator got warm, your stator is producing power. A long time ago, I had a similar problem with my 83. I measured the voltage at one of the red wires coming out of the regulator with the engine running. On mine it measured normal (14.5V plus or minus .5V) but at the battery I had less. I found the mounting screws for the main fuse link were a bit loose, causing a high resistance connection. Tightened them up and everything was fine. The main fuse is on the left side of the battery, and get to the fuse link, you have to open the housing. After you get it apart, loosen both mounting screws and then re-tighten them and that will clean some of the oxide off the connections.

Thanks, took it apart yesterday and it looked brand new, but I didn't check the screws. I'll do that when I get home Sunday.

 

Also went back and checked the pickup coils for the ignition. The Book shows "O" orange as the ground, but the schematic clearly shows black as the ground. They all checked out at around 120Ω. Just going back over this because of the bad readings I had before.

Edited January 13, 2015 by flyday58

[Neil86]

Even though your charging voltage is on low side I doubt it would kill the ignition.....the battery voltage drops a lot lower cranking engine and the ignition operates sufficiently then.

 

You might want to test the running voltage at the TCI red/white versus the TCI black on the 8 wire harness since you mentioned

poor fuse spade. That may be running considerably lower than battery voltage yet still operate the starter solenoid coil.

 

If the damaged insulation was on the 6 wire pickup coil harness at TCI its possible a short occured and the TCI shut down sensing no crank rotation.

If the gray was shorting on the larger 8 wire TCI plug it might have stopped #2 coil firing and that shuts off the fuel pump, but you should see tach drop to zero beforehand.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Neil86

[flyday58]

Well, got the fuse panel replaced - thanks to skydoc_17 for the kit - and wires on the six- and eight-pin plugs replaced. I'm also going to convert to COPs as soon as the Vmax guy gets the harnesses done. I know the coils took a lot of water so I'm getting rid of them, hopefully that cures the farting the engine does at idle (although in bike years it's twice as old as me, which would cover the farting:backinmyday:).

[Donvito]

About a year ago I went through a problem with low voltage. There was insufficient voltage getting to the fuel pump relay so the relay would not activate and engage the pump causing the bike not to start and to stall.

 

In addition to replacing the fuse box, I cleaned every contact behind the headlight and also the run/stop switch on the handlebar. This fixed the fuel pump issue, but it also seemed to solve some other minor issues and now the bike is running great and the mpg is back to where it was when new.

[flyday58]

Well, good news. Since the rewire and new fuse box, my voltage is now showing 14.05v at idle, and 13.95 at 3000 rpm and up, so much better. Let the bike run till the fan kicked on and never missed a beat. I'll put it all back together tomorrow and take it around the neighborhood a bunch of times before Venture -ing out for a real ride. If all goes well I'll let y'all know. Thanks to everyone for the assistance. Again.

[flyday58]

Part II. Thought I was done with this, apparently not. Put on a NOS regulator and now have new symptoms, plus it quit again today. Jiggled the key while cranking and it fired back up, but couldn't reproduce it.

 

The new problem. Since installing the new fuse block I've had to put the charger on it to get enough volts to start; it will crank but the ignition drops out because the battery gets low. It's a new battery and properly serviced. I think it was Jeff's attachment which said to have the battery load-tested to check for a dead cell, and I haven't done that yet because I have this gremlin points elsewhere.

 

When I turned the key today, the volts indicated around 10v, and of course it wouldn't start. So out comes the charger again, but in messing around and trying different things I hit the kill switch, and the voltage recovered to more than 12v. On and it dropped to around 9, off back to 12. I pulled the windscreen back off because I had been working on the relays in there and thought it was probably tied to one of them. When I pulled the flasher/cutout relay the voltage drop disappeared. I had repaired the brown/white wire female tip on this plug while looking for corrosion and when I removed it from the plug and plugged the relay back in, the problem was gone. So thought I was on the right track,although that wire goes to the flashers.

 

Stuck the wire back in the plug, plugged it up, still no prob, bike fired right up, I HATE intermittent stuff. Rode up and down the block again, never missed a beat. Came back, shut down, turned the key, 10v. Kill switch to kill, 13v. Darny darn.

 

Pulled the flasher/cutout relay, side stand relay, unplugged the TCI, unplugged the regulator, problem won't go away. I think that just leaves the fuel pump relay, fan relay, oil pressure sensor, and the individual coils. I name these because they're all on the red/white wires of the ignition circuit.

 

I'm waiting for COPs from the Vmax forum guy; Neil86 mentioned that the #2 coil sends the signal for the tach. Maybe it's failing with heat, or has an intermittent short causing my voltage drop. Reaching on that one.

 

So looking for suggestions on what else to chase. One last note in this never-ending post: while sitting there idling the lights would all dim momentarily for a split second, but very noticeable. The voltmeter also dropped when this happened. Did it over and over, then quit for a bit, then started again. Starting to get depressing!

[flyday58]

Did a little more investigating. When I disconnect the fuel pump relay the system returns to normal. Plug it back in and the lights dim and voltage drops. So I'll start there in the morning. Anyone had a pump go bad?

[Neil86]

Just a suggestion.....take your multimeter and test voltage drop on fuse box from power supply wire to load wire on the fuses.

 

Notice I said wire and not clips....another member was having major grief and it was a bad crimp on ignition fuse wire.

[flyday58]

Just a suggestion.....take your multimeter and test voltage drop on fuse box from power supply wire to load wire on the fuses.

 

Notice I said wire and not clips....another member was having major grief and it was a bad crimp on ignition fuse wire.

Thanks, will definitely check that, as it seems no matter how many crimpers I buy or where, I can never find the ones we had in the Air Force and my crimps are always so-so. Might have to tin the ends of the wires like Earl does.

Richard