Charging system not working

[rougeray]

This morning I discovered the charging system on my 07 RSV was not working. After printing out Flyinfool’s instructions on how to check out the charging system I was ready to go.

 

I cleaned up the battery terminal connections, charged both batteries, and inspected the fuse box and the starter relay. Relay looked in good condition compared to what I have seen in the past as I have had to replace it twice due to corrosion. Dielectric grease appeared to do its job. Stared the bike up and checked the voltage at the battery and had around 12.3 regardless of how fast the engine was running. Installed my spare battery with the same results. Removed the RR and did a diode test and they checked out. Note this was done with a digital VOM. Mfg is B&K model 2860A. Not a Fluke but a good meter. (paid $100.00)

 

The next item to check was the 3 white wires going to ground. Set the meter to 20M ohms and all checked open. Next checked the resistance between each pair of wires. My lowest setting is 200 ohms and I got a reading of .8 all 3 pairs. The spec calls for .36-.48. Hmmm possible problem or the meter will not go low enough?

 

Next test is to start the bike and hold it above 2000 RPM. As I don’t have any way to measure the RPM’s I hooked a pair of vice grips to the throttle grip and guesstimated 2000 RPM.

1-2 98 vac

2-3 92 vac

3-1 76 vac

Hmm 1&2 look ok (close) 3 not so close. I did this earlier using the choke to speed the engine up and got

1-2 68 vac

2-3 64 vac

3-1 54 vac Hmm not so close.

 

I have looked for the 3 white wires coming from the stator and can barely see them but I can not find the connector. I also started to take the cover off the L/H side of the engine to insp the stator. It appears the exhaust pipe is gonna have to come off to get it off. Will the oil have to be drained before this cover comes off? Is this looking like the stator may be bad?

 

As I see it I need to find the connector for the wires coming from the stator (possible behind the cover for the stator?) and remove the cover and do a visual of the stator.

Any comments on how I’m checking things or something else I might do would be most appreciated.

[MiCarl]

I don't think the stator is your problem. Even if that 3-1 pair were dead it should do better than 12.3V when you rev it up.

 

The diode check on the R/R only checks the rectifier circuit. The regulator portion could be bad.

 

Or you could have a bad connection. The Rectifier reads the voltage at its own output. If you've got a poor or broken connection to the wiring harness or battery the Regulator could be at 14V but it doesn't bring the rest of the system up.

 

If it were mine I'd be looking at connectors and checking resistance between the R/R red connection and the battery (+). If that all looked good I'd run a jumper from the R/R + to the battery + and check again. If the voltage didn't come up I'd be inclined to replace the regulator/rectifier.

[rougeray]

I don't think the stator is your problem. Even if that 3-1 pair were dead it should do better than 12.3V when you rev it up.

 

The diode check on the R/R only checks the rectifier circuit. The regulator portion could be bad.

 

Or you could have a bad connection. The Rectifier reads the voltage at its own output. If you've got a poor or broken connection to the wiring harness or battery the Regulator could be at 14V but it doesn't bring the rest of the system up.

 

If it were mine I'd be looking at connectors and checking resistance between the R/R red connection and the battery (+). If that all looked good I'd run a jumper from the R/R + to the battery + and check again. If the voltage didn't come up I'd be inclined to replace the regulator/rectifier.

 

So I don’t misunderstand, you suggesting peeling back some insulation on the red wire close to where the wires (3 wht, 1 rd & 1 blk) connects to the R/R. Connect a wire with an alligator clip to the red wire and run that wire back to the battery positive terminal, then check to see if the if the R/R is providing enough power to charge the battery?

BTW I found the connector from the stator that connects to the harness that runs the white wires to the R/R. You have to remove a panel that the cover for the radiator over flow bottle snaps to. Then remove the overflow bottle. Then you can get your hands in to the connector. I exercised the connector several times to remove any corrosion.

I have ordered a R/R off of ebay from Caltric ($32.00) to try before pulling the stator. Its suppose to be her by Thursday so I have time to try your suggestion. Plus that’s a cheap component and good to have as a spare should your suggestion work. Oh… and should you have to pull the stator you need to drain the oil.

Yesterday was beautiful as will be the next 3-4 days here. This really pisses me off that this is happening now. I guess it could be worse……I could be out riding with a bike that is gonna leave me stranded and possibly no cell service. I did a trip out to the Texas hill country earlier this year by myself and most of the time there was no cell service and very little traffic.

Thanks for the help.

[MiCarl]

That's what I meant. Although an alligator clip might be light, it could be a lot of current depending on state of charge and what is turned on. You might also do the same thing black wire to the battery (-).

[frankd]

I agree with MiCarl in that even though one phase of the stator appears to have a shorted turn (a bad thing), that would make it weak, not dead. The battery voltage should come up some. Instead of running a jumper from the regulator to the battery, you could do the same test by taking a small straight pin and stick it into the red wire near the regulator. Do this carefully so the pin doesn't contact chassis ground. Then take your voltmeter and measure the voltage on the pin. If you measure 12.3VDC, the wire to the battery is good. If you measure a higher voltage (14.5 or so) you have an open wire. Carefully inspect the regulator's and bike connectors to verify that you don't have a burned up pin. If you measured 12.3 volts at the regulator, your next step is to try a new regulator.

 

Frank D.

[Flyinfool]

It is not unheard of for a bad RR to take out a stator.

 

It does sound like you have a bad stator, BUT it also sounds like you have another issue going on at the same time.

 

As mentioned, one weak winding in the stator will give a reduced output of the RR. You seem to have NO output of the RR.

 

Do the running tests with everything possible turned off on the bike.

 

Don't forget to check the main fuse......

[rougeray]

Thanks all for the input. I'm gonna try the needle thing first than if need be run the wires back to the battery. I have never seen the bike charge the battery at 13.5-14 vdc from the time it was brand new. One phase of the charging system being low could possibly cause that? It would be say around 13.3 or 13.4.

 

 

I could have gotten a R/R off of Amazon sooner but it was from a Chinese co. Past posts did not recommend using them. Caltric is a CA co. soooo I'm hoping it is a quality made component. Anyway need to put the gas tank back on and will put everything else back together. I'll up date later this evening. Oh BTW I did check the starter solenoid and main fuse. All appear ok. Thanks agin for the input.

[MiCarl]

Good idea on just checking the voltages Frankd. I'd add a pin in the black and check red-black, then you've eliminated almost everything.

 

Every Venture I've ever checked the R/R seems to clamp at about 13.9. 13.3 or 13.4 would be consistent with a weak stator OR bad R/R.

[rougeray]

Ok, looks like I have some good data for the electrical guru’s. When I originally started this test the fan was not running and the readings rev’ed up at the battery with no headlight fuse was 13 plus and I thought maybe just exercising the connector from the stator to the R/R helped. Once the fan kicked on the readings decreased and decreased even more when the headlight fuse was installed. So as the load is increased the output of the R/R cannot keep up. It appears there is a 1 vdc drop between the R/R and the battery. Is that acceptable?

Just some added info. no added electrical accessories except a Stebel horn and the plug & play to take the load off the ign. switch sold by one of the members. The blade of the key was getting hot and this resolved that problem.

 

All fuses installed fan running

Idle at R/R: 12.9 Rev'ed at R/R: 13.16

Idle at Batt: 12.13 Rev'ed at Batt: 12.18

Headlight fuse removed fan running

Idle at R/R: 13.57 Rev'ed at R/R: 13.9

Idle at Batt: 12.6 Rev'ed at Batt: 12.8

The readings at the R/R were taken by putting a needle in the red and black wires. The R/R is getting hot while performing these tests. Thanks for all the

input.

[rutman]

Thanks all for the input. I'm gonna try the needle thing first than if need be run the wires back to the battery. I have never seen the bike charge the battery at 13.5-14 vdc from the time it was brand new. One phase of the charging system being low could possibly cause that? It would be say around 13.3 or 13.4.

 

 

I could have gotten a R/R off of Amazon sooner but it was from a Chinese co. Past posts did not recommend using them. Caltric is a CA co. soooo I'm hoping it is a quality made component. Anyway need to put the gas tank back on and will put everything else back together. I'll up date later this evening. Oh BTW I did check the starter solenoid and main fuse. All appear ok. Thanks agin for the input.

 

I bought a r/r from Caltric and so far so good.

[Flyinfool]

A 1 volt drop between the RR and battery is a bad connection.

 

As I said earlier, we are chasing multiple issues here. Find and fix the easy and cheap stuff first.

 

With the bike running and everything on that is normally on;

Check voltage from the battery neg to the black pin at the RR.

Check voltage from the battery pos to the red pin at the RR.

Use the lowest voltage scale on your meter, they should both be very close to zero volts. This will tell you winch wire has the bad connection. You can use your meter to check eack length of wire to home in on the bad one.

[MiCarl]

Be aware that you can have multiple bad connections. I had a customer bike once that wasn't charging but all the components checked ok. Turned out there were smaller drops across each connection that added up to a couple volts. PITA to work through and fix.

[rougeray]

Ok........did what Flyinfool suggested. Put the pins back in the wires and measured back at the battery. Meter was set a 2 vdc

Red wire .2 idle rev'ed .3

Black wire .7 idle rev'ed .8

 

Does this mean the ground is probably a problem or both? I did not record the second digit or hundreds of a volt but if you add the .7 and 12.13 (reading at idle all fuses in and fan running) it comes up to 12.83 and the vdc reading at the R/R yesterday was 12.9 under the same conditions only today the fan was not running.

 

After looking at the wiring schematic I notice there are several points following the black wire back to the battery that are identified as “soldered or plug connector”. Can you explain what I’m looking for? There is a connector to the right of the battery box that ties in a small gauge wire that terminates into the negative cable that connects to the battery terminal. I’m thinking that is where the black wire from the R/R terminates. I will have to remove the battery and battery box to get to it. On my list for tomorrow.

 

If nothing else this a great learning experience.

[frankd]

It means that your black lead is worse than your red lead, but both have problems that need to be cured. Because of my experience is with First Gens. (and I'm pretty sure that MiCarl and Flyinfool are in the same boat) I can't tell you where the connections on a 2nd Gen are located. You'll probably find several bolts or screws that connect the black wires to the chassis. Unscrew the bolts/screws, and using a fine abrasive (400 grit emery cloth) clean all the oxide off these connections and also the frame, but don't 'over clean' them. The terminals are brass with silver plating, and if you rub through the plating they will oxidize quicker and the resistance of the connection will increase (a bad thing). To prevent them from oxidizing again, coat them with di-electric grease or even chassis grease. Either will keep the air off the connections. On a 1st Gen, I'm pretty sure the red wires (there are 2 in parallel) run from the regulator connector to the main fuse with no other connectors. On yours, first disconnect the negative battery lead, and then take apart the main fuse (if possible on a 2nd Gen) and clean all the connections and make sure everything is tight.

[rougeray]

It’s been a while since I have given an update on what I have found. I was suppose to have received the new R/R last Thursday but did not hit my door step till Monday evening. I just got around to installing and testing today. The new R/R was smaller than the original and actually put out less than the original or OEM R/R. So I reinstalled the original and ran a test that was recommended by Micarl. (see pics). I soldered wires to safety pins then installed in wires and attached to battery.

With bike running headlight on meter set to 2 vdc

One lead touching blk wire at R/R the other at the neg. battery terminal: reading .07

One lead touching red wire at R/R the other at the pos. battery terminal: reading .06

With bike running headlight on engine rev’ed meter set to 20 vdc

vdc at R/R:13.00

vdc at Battery:12.7

With bike running headlight & fan on engine rev’ed meter set to 20 vdc

vdc at R/R:12.4

vdc at Battery:12.2

With this info can anybody give me something else I can try?

The aftermarket R/R was smaller and did not perform as well as the original. I’m gonna do some checking and make sure they sent the right one. Oh BTW the Caltric is made in China.

[frankd]

Is your battery fully charged? If not, please charge it fully, and then with your charger set to it's lowest range (2 Amp), measure the voltage across the battery. Hopefully it'll be near 15 volts. This will verify that your battery can accept a charge without loading down the charging system.

 

Your readings of .07 and .06 VDC drop on the wiring from the regulator to the battery seem good now.

[Neil86]

There have been a few cases where a poor ground point was used in the stator winding test, giving a false Open circuit reading.

I would redo the winding to ground test, using the battery negative cable for ground and doing the test after bike ran till fan has kicked on so

the stator is still hot.

[Eck]

This thread has been moved from the watering hole to the 2nd gen tech talk forum

 

Eck

[rougeray]

Is your battery fully charged? If not, please charge it fully, and then with your charger set to it's lowest range (2 Amp), measure the voltage across the battery. Hopefully it'll be near 15 volts. This will verify that your battery can accept a charge without loading down the charging system.

 

Your readings of .07 and .06 VDC drop on the wiring from the regulator to the battery seem good now.

 

Ok ….I charged the battery up to 12.75 vdc that held steady after 5 min with no charger. I then hooked up the charger and allowed it to charge for 5 min then measured the battery voltage at 13.91 vdc this was steady charger connected. After letting it sit for 5 min no charger I measured 12.78 vdc. Do you think the battery is marginal as it did not reach

15 vdc?

The charging system really has only 5 major components as I see it. You have the

The stator (did not include rotor as there isn’t anything that can happen with it as it is a piece of steal with fixed magnets. “Next test is to start the bike and hold it above 2000 RPM. As I don’t have any way to measure the RPM’s I hooked a pair of vice grips to the throttle grip and guesstimated 2000 RPM.

1-2 98 vac

2-3 92 vac

3-1 76 vac

Hmm 1&2 look ok (close) 3 not so close. I did this earlier using the choke to speed the engine up and got

1-2 68 vac

2-3 64 vac

3-1 54 vac Hmm not so close.

 

2. Wiring from stator to R/R. I found the 3 wire connector from the stator that connects to the wiring harness to R/R. All of this looked good. The only question I have here is the high resistance that was measured from that connector at R/R to stator.

“The next item to check was the 3 white wires going to ground. Set the meter to 20M ohms and all checked open. Next checked the resistance between each pair of wires. My lowest setting is 200 ohms and I got a reading of .8 all 3 pairs. The spec calls for .36-.48. Hmmm possible problem or the meter will not go low enough”

 

3. The R/R. This was changed using a newly purchased R/R from Caltric. It actually did not produce as well as the OEM R/R. So I’m ruling out a bad R/R.

 

4. Wire from output of R/R to battery. With the original wire, bike running headlight on I measured .2 red and .7 black. frankd suggested this is too much and to attach a jumper to each wire and attach it to the battery at the appropriate terminal. This reduced the resistance down to red .06 black .07. So this is ruled out.

 

5. Battery This battery is about a year and a half old. It does charge up to 12.75. I’m waiting on a response to the readings I provided at the beginning of this write up. This is in question?

 

So to me the only thing left of question are items 1 & 2. This is based on getting an OK on the readings taken of the battery at the beginning of this write up. All comments and suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

[rougeray]

There have been a few cases where a poor ground point was used in the stator winding test, giving a false Open circuit reading.

I would redo the winding to ground test, using the battery negative cable for ground and doing the test after bike ran till fan has kicked on so

the stator is still hot.

Thanks I will give this a try.

[Flyinfool]

The only way to test the battery is a load test.

Almost all auto parts stores will test it for free.

 

When you did the voltage test of the stator, did you do the test while it was plugged into the RR or with the stator unplugged?

The stator voltage test need to be done while unplugged from the stator. the only thing connected to the stator for the test should be the voltmeter.

[Neil86]

Ray...

regarding the stator resistance....I touch the test probes together first to find resistance of test equipment, then that reading is subtracted from your stator resistance tests.

[rougeray]

I'm gonna have the battery load tested tomorrow to eliminate that. Yes I did the voltage test with the R/R removed. I took the readings at the plug that plugs into the R/R

1-2= 98 vac

2-3= 92 vac

3-1= 76 vac

 

[rougeray]

Ray...

regarding the stator resistance....I touch the test probes together first to find resistance of test equipment, then that reading is subtracted from your stator resistance tests.

 

Thanks for that info as I was not aware of that but it makes sense. Reading all three phases .8. Meter set at 200 ohms (lowest setting) probes touching .4 ohms. After you subtract that from .8 you come up with .4 for stator resistance all three phase. Spec. is .36-.48. Not sure if that is the proper terminology (phase). Sooooo I'm within the spec.

[rougeray]

I will get the battery load tested tomorrow to ensure that that is not a problem. I want to thank all of you for the input you have provided. I would total lost without it. If the battery tests good it looks like the stator is the problem???