Fuel Pump Function Query

[Seaking]

Here we go again.. After replacing the key (ignition) switch which was faulty, and the Starter Cutoff Circuit Relay (diode tested bad) and just for spite, the starter relay, I did get the bike to run fine, and it did for over a week now, powerful starts and smooth running.. until this morning.. GAH!!!

 

Pulling out the spark plug I couldn't see spark until tonight when I could get the garage pitch black.. and the ultimate check, yes it frikken hurts when that jolt of electricity hits you.. Ok so I have spark.. I have air.. must be the fuel..

 

When I turn the key on, I can hear the pump tick away as it should.. but no start after a lot of cranking. Thinking perhaps I had flooded the engine with use of choke, I let the bike sit for a few hours but to no avail, crank crank but no catching..

 

Let's check the pump properly now.. I checked the fuses in the left side panel and all were good.

 

I pulled the feed end of the hose to ensure fuel was indeed flowing from the tank to the pump.. that's good.. really good.. no restrictions..

 

I pulled the hose off the engine feed side of the pump and connected a long hose to it to drain to a bucket.. When I turn the key ON, the pump works and squirts out a bunch of fuel and then stops pumping.. basically what I would assume it's doing when all is working well..

 

BUT when I hit the starter button, no fuel is being pumped.. Having read somewhere about back pressure, I capped the end of the hose with my thumb but still nothing coming out of the pump while the engine is cranking...

 

So, is this pump pooched or is it operating properly?

 

According to the 'manual', all the checks I have done checked out fine, and the last line is "replace ignitor unit" huh?! All it says about pump pushing fuel is that when power is connected, the pump will pump fuel.. but doesn't say how long, how much etc..

 

Ok, so I'll bite.. what exactly IS the "ignitor unit" on this bike (where its located, what it looks like etc please).

 

Is this fuel pump somewhat dead, somewhat working, does it need replacing?

 

It annoys the hell out of me that the bike woudl run so ever so perfectly well and suddenly decide not to.. what gives..

 

Anyone with sound knowledge of the pump and how it should work under the listed conditions, please do drop me a line..

 

Cheers

[M61A1MECH]

If you could not see spark until it was pitch black you may have a bad ignition unit, I am pretty sure these bikes have a waste spark cycle, the ignition system fires a heavy spark that should be visible in daylight at the end of the compression stroke to drive the piston down and then a second lighter spark, that will also bite the crap out of you on the exhaust stroke to help burn any left over hydrocarbons as they head out towards the tail pipes.

You have been bit by the waste spark.

 

The ignition unit is on a bulkhead that is just forward of the battery, you need to pull the battery and the battery box to gain access to it.

Maybe some in your neck of the woods has installed a dyna 3K ignition system and still has their original unit, you could try swapping it out to se if that fixes it, because it sounds like your fuel pump is working.

 

Are you sure there is no pinched areas in the fuel line after the pump that would restrict fuel getting to the carbs?

I forget which side of the pump the filter is on , if it is on the out bund side of the pump are you sure it is not plugged up.

 

Are spark plugs wet with fuel? If you ar epumping fuel into the cyclinders and not burning it the plugs should be wet with raw fuel, if not you may npt be getting fuel to or thru the carbs.

 

Maybe this helps a little bit.

Good luck.

[Neil86]

As part of the design on Ventures...the fuel pump will only cycle for a few seconds with

the engine not rotating (or detected**). This allows for refilling of the carbs before cranking but prevents a major fuel loss from a leak.

 

If you had the pump discharge routed to a catch can, the pump will only run a few seconds with key on and then stop, if no engine rotation is detected. If you cycle the kill switch off and back on, it should repeat this short pumping time.

If the discharge hose is connected to the carbs, as they fill up and needle valves close off the pump will slow down and stop. If the carbs are full the pump will not cycle.

 

The pickup coil detects crank position and sends a signal to the Igniter so the ignition can be timed to occur at the proper crank position. If the pickup coil is not working, rotation is not sensed and ignition will not occur, and the fuel pump will not operate either.

 

I would test the pickup coil first.

[djh3]

Fuel filter is on inlet side of fuel line to pump. That way it traps gunk before the pump eats it. The bigger box under the seat/battery area where the SCS or whatever the heck that safety related gizmo that went TU is I think is where igniter is located.

[Seaking]

Thanks for the reply Steve.. I have the Dyna3000 in my bike now, and have been looking for the OEM one for a while now.. (online store sent me the wrong one when I bought it for the VStar but never asked for it back, this is before I even bought the RSV, it just worked out..)

 

Point taken on the waste spark.. what you describe is possibly what's going on here.. But gees, it worked fine and then stopped working all of sudden, again? Hopefully I can find that ignition unit.

 

As far as the fuel line goes, the fuel line from the tank to the pump is free and clear, no pinches, kinks or obstructions. Mind you, I will attempt to pull the line from the engine side just to make sure there is no obstruction inside that line. Ya just never know. My fuel filter had been relocated for a couple of years now with free flowing lines, no pinches, kinks or anything to restrict the flow of fuel.. and it's replaced frequently..

 

Thanks again..

[Seaking]

The pickup coil detects crank position and sends a signal to the Igniter so the ignition can be timed to occur at the proper crank position. If the pickup coil is not working, rotation is not sensed and ignition will not occur, and the fuel pump will not operate either.

 

I would test the pickup coil first.

 

Thanks! Since I have to dig into the bike to get to the ignition unit anyway, I'll be checking the pick up coil at the connector which I have been told is down there, tucked away and hiding..

 

More work..

[Seaking]

Alrighty then.. a couple of hours of colourful language (I'm bilingual so you can imagine what THAT must have sounded like...) and a couple of cuts on the hands.. here's where I am..

 

I finally found my OEM ignition unit.. took the Dyna3000 one off and then went after the pickup coil testing.. Removing the coolant overflow tank, battery and box and displacing the fuel pump, I was able to find the two wire connector for the pick up coil.. One white wire, one grey wire.. It would have been nice to have wee hands to get into that hell hole but I got it apart.. Connectors were dirty as hell but after running a pin cleaner through them, I got the pickup coil end a little brighter.. and so begins the testing.

 

All I know about testing this is from what Neil provided.. Find the right connector (grey and white wire) and test it for continuity of 189 to 235 ohms. Ensuring I actually have the tester's pins on the connectors I end up with an open circuit.. nada, nothing, busted.. I even went as far as putting a couple of wires into the connector to ensure that I did indeed have a proper touch onto the connector ends and same thing.

 

So, does this mean I have a pooched pick up coil, or am I doing the test wrong?

 

The other annoying this about this is the frikken manual.. it states in it to check POS on the green/yellow wire and NEG on the black wire, and on the next line refers to the grey and black wires.. geesus, they can't be consitently wrong in the manual..

 

On the bright side, the fuel line from pump to engine is clear, no pinch, no kink and no obstructions.. so fuel and air OK.. just this GRRRRRRR lack of proper spark..

 

Cheers

Edited August 6, 2014 by Seaking

[Neil86]

Ensure you are testing on the side of the connector going down to the coil, not the other half going to the Igniter box (Dyna 3000/stock unit whatever)

[Seaking]

Ensure you are testing on the side of the connector going down to the coil, not the other half going to the Igniter box (Dyna 3000/stock unit whatever)

 

Yep, followed the wires down to under the engine and not the end leading up to the box.. and even tested both ends with the same results (nada)..

 

So does this mean I tested it correctly and that this indicates the pickup coil is dead and needs replacing?

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Cheers

[Neil86]

My wiring diagram shows it as a gray and a black.

[Neil86]

Its a gray and a black from pickup coil up to the connector, other side of connector is

white/red and a black/blue.

 

You could test at the igniter harness....on the W/R and B/L wires too.

[djh3]

I found the same thing on some of the wires I was chasing when we talked before. Wires would be one color and then the wires on otherside of connector to switch or whatever would be adifferent color. Stupid in my book.

[Seaking]

Its a gray and a black from pickup coil up to the connector, other side of connector is white/red and a black/blue.You could test at the igniter harness....on the W/R and B/L wires too.

 

Well this is not fun.. Of the wires coming out from behind the drive shaft when looking at it from the left side of the bike, there are two connectors with 2 wires on them, the rest all have multiple wires to the connector and go into a massive harness which doesn't tell you where these pop out of again and what they are connected to..

 

Of the two connectors with two wires each, on has the grey and white wire at both ends of the connector while the other has two green wires.. when metering these for continuity with the meter at the lowest setting, it reads 1 to the left which means open circuit..

 

So I'm baffled.. Can't find the black grey wire that you mentioned.. I can find no other wire bundle or leads coming from anywhere near there that would show these colours or another 2 wire connector anywhere near there..

 

In the photo below, the front of the bike is to the left, the fuse box is upper right of photo.. coolant tank is removed..

 

Thoughts?

[Neil86]

It might be simpler to go to the Igniter....do you have the White/Red and the Black/Blue....

tech between them with Igniter unplugged.

[Seaking]

It might be simpler to go to the Igniter....do you have the White/Red and the Black/Blue....

check between them with Igniter unplugged.

 

I'm going to have to dismantle the whole harness to see where the wires are to test them.. dunno who did the cabling on this bike but man, they went at the wraps with a vengeance!!

 

 

I tried test fitting in the OEM igniter and it's not going in.. can't see what's holding it up, either the 3 cables attached to it, or something else.. another set of hands or pair of eyes would help.. It would appear I have to take apart more of the bike braces and supports just to reinstall the damn thing.. Giving up for the night.. argh.

[Neil86]

Okay....get a good nights rest. No need to cut things apart.

 

Simplest thing is tomorrow look at the Igniter plugs...should have the white/red and Blue/black.

 

Test on them (everything is reconnected down below correct).

 

 

Also on your resistance, your meter has to be set high enough so it reads the normal value...

The 1. display can just mean the resistance is over the selected range, you have to raise the range to see if value reads out.

 

Looking at the service manual the drawing they show for location of pickup coil coupler appears to be below the fuel pump.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Neil86

[djh3]

since doing quite a bit of OHM checking here lately (way more than I want to) and seeing folks mention range setting. I noticed my Craftsman meter does not have any kind of range setting option. Closest one I can find was this. Looks pretty close dial wise for selections. http://c.shld.net/rpx/i/s/i/spin/image/spin_prod_40847701?hei=624&wid=624&qlt=50,0&op_sharpen=1&op_usm=0.9,0.5,0,0 I also have a couple of the $4 harbor freight jobs banging around somewhere.

[Seaking]

Also on your resistance, your meter has to be set high enough so it reads the normal value...

The 1. display can just mean the resistance is over the selected range, you have to raise the range to see if value reads out.

 

Looking at the service manual the drawing they show for location of pickup coil coupler appears to be below the fuel pump.

 

TESTED: I was able to find the white wire with red stripe and the black wire with blue stripe on the 8 pin connector to the ignitor unit and metered that and also ended up with an open circuit.. So for all intended purpuses, a dead pickup coil according to the book and what we've been discussing..?

 

Photo is the tester I'm using and the settings I'm using. Since they are asking to check for 189 to 235 Ohms, I have it set at the 200 ohms range setting on mine. The way I was trained on this is that if there is resistance, you'll get numbers to the right side of the gauage, but an open circuit will give you the 1 to the left as shown in the image..

 

But please do tell me if I have it wrong..

Edited August 6, 2014 by Seaking

[Neil86]

Seaking...

 

The 1. is indicating the resistance is over the range you selected....the highest resistance you can display when set at 200 ohms is 199 ohms. So your pickup coil could be at the high end of the normal spec for resistance...or yes it could be failed.....but you need to get a reading.

 

Try the meter on 2000.

 

After getting an actual reading, if you want, since you found the correct wire colours up at the igniter, you could test from the 2 wire connector you suspect is for the PU coils up to the connector for the igniter, to verify that you have the correct one. In other words...unhooked at igniter and at suspect connector, test say the white/red vs each of the two wires and see if you get continuity....then test the black/blue vs the other wire. Once you have verified you have the correct connector...retest resistance on lower connector to the PU coil.

This is to verify the issue is with the pickup coil or the wiring up to igniter.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Neil86

[Seaking]

I had already done all those connector tests as you recommended, thanks for the confirmation though. I've established that the black and grey wires coming from the depth of the bike and connected to the white/red stripe and black/blue stripe wires of the 8 pin ignitor connectors are indeed the same. Which means these are the wires to the pickup coil.. and since there is no continuity from it, I will deem it to be deader than a doornail..

 

I tried all the settings on the meter, 200 2000 ect and nothing.. even tried an older analog meter and it didn't show anything at all..

 

So I'll be ordering a pickup coil and gasket and go from there.. sigh.. On the bright side, once I get this bike up and running properly again, it should really last a long long time.. all these new parts..

 

Now to read up on how to get that pickup coil out of the bike.. pipe, floorboard, pop off cover.. yeah.. seems simple enough.. Too nice to work in the garage this afternoon, time to jump on the other bike and go order parts..

 

Again, many thanks for the walk through.. much appreciated.

[Neil86]

Hopefully that sorts out this intermittent no start issue.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Neil86

[MiCarl]

One thing you might try is fishing the pick up wire out and check for any breaks (you'll have to do that to replace the coil any way). Be a shame to get a new coil if you just have a broken wire.

[Seaking]

That is a very good point indeed.. Since there's a 'national backorder' on this part, I'll have time to hunt around to check it out.. Since this is a $150 CDN part, I am hoping that when I pull the old one out that I may indeed find it's nothing more than a cut or broken wire than can be repaired and hey, fix and reinstall.. Wishful thinking but I've got time on hand while waiting for the part.. sigh

 

Cheers

[Neil86]

Just a headsup...available for around $78 US....

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/2006/ROYAL%20STAR%20MIDNIGHT%20VENTURE%20-%20XVZ13TFMV/GENERATOR/parts.html

[Seaking]

Just a headsup...available for around $78 US....

 

Thanks Neil, I actually found a new one in Quebec, $40 overnight shipping included.. Fun part is that the pickup coil is a two piece part.. the coil and the arm.. Yamaha puts the part number against the arm.. not the coil, so its harder to locate what it is.. However, a savvy electrical guy was able to sort this out for me and is having just the coil shipped out.. all I would need to do is replace the coil itself onto the existing arm and solder on the connector to its wires.. easy peasy.. Or at least that's the plan. I'll have a look at the old one to see what went wrong with it, a broken wire, squirrels, gremlins..

 

Still trying to figure out how to get a tool onto the inside exhaust pipe bolt to remove it.. never taken the exhaust off before.. hmmm