Pikes Peak Question

[BigD]

I'm planning a trip to the top of Pikes Peak in September. Just wondering if I may have trouble with the carb system on my 06 RSV? Any tips from anyone that has done this? Thanks

[Peder_y2k]

No problem going up. Walking around at the top will exhaust you fast (less oxygen for activity), so plan accordingly. Comming down is an issue for brakes as they get smokin' hot and loose stopping ability. It is far cheaper to wear out the brakes than to use engine compression to maintain speed. I suggest you stop several times on the way down for at least 15 minutes per stop for brake cooling. There will be a hot brake inspector 1/2 way down that uses an infrared non-contact thermometer on your brakes, and will tell you if you are a go or no-go for the continued descent.

Been there and done that several times.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

[XV1100SE]

Make sure your brake fluid is fresh ! If it is older it will have water in it that will lower the "boiling point" of the brake fluid. If it is at all discoloured in the window or the rear master fluid, replace it.

 

Good time to change coolant too if you haven't done it in a couple years.

 

And what the heck....while you are doing those things... bleed the clutch and replace your engine oil and rear gear fluid !

[Yammer Dan]

I remember a snowball battle on top of that one in the early 70's. Brakes on my 1950 Chevy heated up very quick coming down. I took several stops. Lot of places without guard rails then. Long ways down!!

[Flyinfool]

............

It is far cheaper to wear out the brakes than to use engine compression to maintain speed. .......................

 

I have never heard that theory and have always been taught to down shift to maintain speed.

What is being worn out or damaged by using engine compression that is more expensive than $700 - $800 worth of brakes? Pads and heat warped rotors.

[Peder_y2k]

Engine rebuild is more spendy than brakes. Note that I suggested several cool-off stops on descent. Could also help cool with spray bottle, and at those temps the water turns to vapor so fast that warping a rotor is negligible.

Much easier and cheaper to fix worn out brakes than fix a worn out engine/tranny

It's your machine, but don't ask to use mine on that mountain.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

[steamer]

I beg to differ. Engine braking does not do any damage to the engine. Ask any truck driver. It is always recommended to down shift and let the engine slow you down. It is also safer. Riding your brakes will heat them up and cause brake fade. Use your brakes as little possible to control your speed on your down hill ride, let the engine do the work.

[eusa1]

I have 180k on my bike, im on my 4th set of brake pads and 2nd clutch and I gotta go with the rest of the group on this one. I use the engine to brake 99% of the time.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Brake 'fade' is a very real possibility if using the brakes ONLY on a long steep descent.

 

When brakes begin to fade, bad things can happen.

 

You should ALWAYS descend the grade with the engine as the primary brake (use lower gears and go slow) and then use the service brakes now and then to control speed, while also allowing them to cool off.

 

Wearing out brake pads is not really a problem but... faded, smoking, red-hot brake pads can get you hurt.

 

 

 

[Leland]

Not a problem up or down. Paved all of the way.

[Leland]

PS You don't say what part of September, but by then snow is always a possibility.

[Prairiehammer]

Engine rebuild is more spendy than brakes. Note that I suggested several cool-off stops on descent. Could also help cool with spray bottle, and at those temps the water turns to vapor so fast that warping a rotor is negligible.

Much easier and cheaper to fix worn out brakes than fix a worn out engine/tranny

It's your machine, but don't ask to use mine on that mountain.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

 

Pete, as a Mechanical Engineer, perhaps you can expound on the damage done to an engine when engine braking?

[BigD]

Thanks for all the feed back, sounds like stopping many times will be a key thing to remember. It will be the first week in Sept., so I hope I don't have to deal with snow at that time. I was there a few years ago and saw many bike, but most had a fuel ejection system Thanks again Guys.

[Wade 2000]

No problem going up. Walking around at the top will exhaust you fast (less oxygen for activity), so plan accordingly. Comming down is an issue for brakes as they get smokin' hot and loose stopping ability. It is far cheaper to wear out the brakes than to use engine compression to maintain speed. I suggest you stop several times on the way down for at least 15 minutes per stop for brake cooling. There will be a hot brake inspector 1/2 way down that uses an infrared non-contact thermometer on your brakes, and will tell you if you are a go or no-go for the continued descent.

Been there and done that several times.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

 

I gotta admit I have never heard of engine braking as being harmful either. I was always taught (by my father who was a truck driver) this was the proper way to descend steep inclines and save your brakes. I am interested to hear the reasoning on this.

[rickardracing]

No problem going up or down with my 07 RSV. Engine braked in 2nd gear most of the way down, tapping the brakes when needed. Your not going to hurt that motor unless your pulling major rpms. Keep it under 3500 rpm and you'll be fine. Do not spray your rotors with water unless you want to sit on the side of a mountain with cracked rotors. That is a just plain dumb thing to do. Not a lot of places to pull off either. Don't make a ......mountain out of a mole hill.

[videoarizona]

I guess I'm going to agree and disagree.

 

Agree...

Yes, I agree to using the engine for braking downhill. I've practiced this procedure for years with my Yukon XL towing a 2.5 ton sailboat...and can hold a 7% grade going down in 3rd gear at 65mph. Not touch brakes for 6 or 7 miles. We have those hills in Arizona. I have over 137K miles... been across country so many times, the Best Western hotels know me by name... and she still gets good gas mileage and doesn't burn oil. BTW, on original set of brakes on this truck! So there ya go.

 

I've done it with my bikes for years as well...with the caution that downshifting a gear then letting off the gas brings a dramatic change in velocity....so ease off gas on each gear change down...just in case.

 

Disagree...

Fuel injected motors, nope....BUT as far as carbs....Yep. If your carbs are set at sea level, you will feel a loss of power as your motor will be air starved...to much fuel. Not an issue, but not as much pep! I felt it going from 1200 feet to 7K feet on a ride up to mountains near Pine, AZ. Especially passing a truck up a long hill. She still went like a bat...just not a fast bat!

 

Timing would be an issue but our computers on board are supposed to handle that. I didn't notice any additional backfiring or timing issues in my ride 3 weeks ago.

 

So know this in advance, but know that no damage will be done...just enjoy the ride. Oh...bring a liner for your jacket...can be chilly..even in summer!

 

Take pics!

[Flyinfool]

Engine rebuild is more spendy than brakes. Note that I suggested several cool-off stops on descent. Could also help cool with spray bottle, and at those temps the water turns to vapor so fast that warping a rotor is negligible.

Much easier and cheaper to fix worn out brakes than fix a worn out engine/tranny

It's your machine, but don't ask to use mine on that mountain.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

 

I will grant you that if you use the brakes more and engine braking less that mathematically there will be less wear on the engine. But the engine wear that you will have saved is WAY less than the wear you just put on your brakes. Yes there is also the dummies that will go over red line on the engine while down shifting and blow up the engine.

 

We or at least I am comparing service brakes used properly, to engine braking used properly.

 

Unless you are shutting the engine off and shifting to neutral the engine is still running at speed and still creating wear. The brake inspector is there for those that do not know how to down shift, and for those that have a heavy enough load that there is not enough engine braking potential to maintain their speed. That only happens in very heavy vehicles like big trucks, buses and heavy RVs. By the time you would wear an engine to need a rebuild due to the engine braking you could have bought several engine rebuilds with the money you would have spent on brakes. Yes you can stop every few miles to let your brakes cool, but you are still grinding up the rotors and pads.

 

Engine braking puts very little strain on the engine. It is just spinning with very little load on anything. But that spinning still is circulating the oil and coolant at the same rate as if you were powering up the hill. There is a lot less engine stress during engine braking than the stress that is there from normal cruising on level ground. How is that wearing out the engine?

 

Most or at least some, newer vehicles now will automatically use engine braking on downhills for you. I know my truck will. Any time it senses that the speed is rising and my foot is off the gas it will down shift automatically to try to maintain speed.

 

On our bikes an engine rebuild kit is not much more money for the parts compared to the parts cost for a complete brake job. Rotors cost way more than engine parts. I'll bet that almost everyone here goes through a lot more dollars in brake parts than what they do spend on engine rebuilds.

 

I use a LOT of engine braking. My commute to work is 25 miles each way all city stop and go traffic. So I have to brake to a stop very often. At the end of the commute my rotors are only about 15°F above ambient temperature. I have checked it. That is how little I use the service brakes vs engine braking. There are no issues with my engine at 60K miles, still has original clutch, Brakes are on the third set that I know of, and the next change will need new rotors too. Rotors are $250-$300 each times 3 pads are around $30 times 3. That is $840 to $990. But I bet you can not wear out an engine coming down that mountain, even in 100 trips. You will have a lot more wear getting up the mountain than you will coming back down with heavy engine braking. Experience, and the rest of the world tells me that it is far less expensive to use engine braking than using the actual brakes.

 

As you said "It's your machine, but don't ask to use mine on that mountain."

 

I have explained the science as I see it. Can you explain your version of the science as you see it. I can be convinced that I am all wrong by presenting facts that are more plausible that the fact set that I am currently using. I try to learn something new every day. I will only admit to knowing something about everything and every thing about nothing. The more I learn the more I realize I don't know.

[Peder_y2k]

"perhaps you can expound on the damage done to an engine when engine braking?"

 

Very simple - a motorcycle engine was designed to produce motive power, not the reverse. The engine, transmission, and drives under compression speed control are stressed (both mechanical and thermal) at different pressure/contact points that were never designed for the purpose of braking. Big trucks are quite different, they are usually diesel, expected to negotiate long descents with loads etc. and were designed for such use. Motorcycles were not. Treat your motorcycle like a truck and it will wear out/break. The owners manuals make no mention of using engine compression for speed control on long descents, and that's because it isn't recommended. If they built motorcycle like trucks, they'd all be way over 1000lbs. and relatively lethargic. Never use engine compression for heavy sustained speed control on mountain grades like Pikes Peak. Only use it if you have no alternative........or you have lots of money for repairs.

I know the design of my '88VR and both the intermediate and final drive do not lend themselves well to constant reverse pressures that are present with engine braking.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

[Yammer Dan]

Thanks for all the feed back, sounds like stopping many times will be a key thing to remember. It will be the first week in Sept., so I hope I don't have to deal with snow at that time. I was there a few years ago and saw many bike, but most had a fuel ejection system Thanks again Guys.

 

Our snowball fight was on 4th of July......

[Prairiehammer]

"perhaps you can expound on the damage done to an engine when engine braking?"

 

Very simple - a motorcycle engine was designed to produce motive power, not the reverse. The engine, transmission, and drives under compression speed control are stressed (both mechanical and thermal) at different pressure/contact points that were never designed for the purpose of braking. Big trucks are quite different, they are usually diesel, expected to negotiate long descents with loads etc. and were designed for such use. Motorcycles were not. Treat your motorcycle like a truck and it will wear out/break. The owners manuals make no mention of using engine compression for speed control on long descents, and that's because it isn't recommended. If they built motorcycle like trucks, they'd all be way over 1000lbs. and relatively lethargic. Never use engine compression for heavy sustained speed control on mountain grades like Pikes Peak. Only use it if you have no alternative........or you have lots of money for repairs.

I know the design of my '88VR and both the intermediate and final drive do not lend themselves well to constant reverse pressures that are present with engine braking.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

 

I'm sorry, but did the manufacturer fail to take into account the simple act of coasting while in gear? I'm thinking that action is very common in everyday riding. Do you then suggest that a rider should disengage the clutch whenever slowing? Never to let the bike coast down in gear from any speed? You never downshift as you slow?

 

Last time I had a final drive or transmission or engine apart, all the components were symmetrical, ie. capable of receiving and delivering force in either direction. Bearings are round. Gears are round. Gear teeth are similarly buttressed fore and aft.

 

Again, I'm sorry, but your logic is invalid.

[playboy]

"perhaps you can expound on the damage done to an engine when engine braking?"

 

Very simple - a motorcycle engine was designed to produce motive power, not the reverse. The engine, transmission, and drives under compression speed control are stressed (both mechanical and thermal) at different pressure/contact points that were never designed for the purpose of braking. Big trucks are quite different, they are usually diesel, expected to negotiate long descents with loads etc. and were designed for such use. Motorcycles were not. Treat your motorcycle like a truck and it will wear out/break. The owners manuals make no mention of using engine compression for speed control on long descents, and that's because it isn't recommended. If they built motorcycle like trucks, they'd all be way over 1000lbs. and relatively lethargic. Never use engine compression for heavy sustained speed control on mountain grades like Pikes Peak. Only use it if you have no alternative........or you have lots of money for repairs.

I know the design of my '88VR and both the intermediate and final drive do not lend themselves well to constant reverse pressures that are present with engine braking.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

 

 

So I guess there was no need in printing a speed to gear ratio for downshifting in the owners manual.

 

With all due respect Pete telling someone to rely on there brakes and not engine braking coming down Pikes Peak is advice that will get someone hurt or killed even with cool off stops. The grade is to steep and to long let alone all of the other uncontrollable variables. Other traffic to include cars , motorcycles, and bicycles. Limited pull offs for that just right time when your brakes are fading and you need to stop. A possible patch of ice or snow you need to slow down for but can't because your brakes have faded and you can't find that 15 min cool off spot. This is real life man not a drawing board.

[Ben Rollins]

[steamer]

OK, after doing a internet search on the subject, I have found no info to support the idea that engine braking is detrimental to a motorcycle engine. On the contrary, it is highly recommended on all vehicle's except maybe 2 cycle engines, due to the engine using the fuel/oil mixture for lubrication. No fuel going in = no lubrication.

[gmarshall]

Big D, I moved from Ohio to colorado in sept last year and made no adjustment to my 06 RSVP. Rides at 6000 ft the same as it did at 700 ft above sea level

 

I'm not sure we'll be home when you're out here but don't hesitate to call if you need assistance.

I'll check my info to see if my correct number is there.

Btw, I have ridden over passes at 9000 ft with no problem but have not tried the peak on the scoot. It was intense enough in a f150 with tranny braking.

Gary:322:

[Yammer Dan]

 

 

Scoot over Ben!!