Harbor Freight tool report

[dna9656]

I'm working on my car, a '07 3.5 Chrysler Sebring changing the timing belt, been going on 3 weeks now because of issues with poor machining of the timing marks, I got that straightened out now I guess I sucked something down into the cylinders though the open intakes (yeah my bad I suppose) and the engine won't rotate 360. #s 1 & 4 are the guilty cylinders. So I loosened the cap bolts to relieve the pressure on the cams and to close all the valves so now you can spin the cam but the valves don't open/close. I did this to be sure I didn't have a valve issue and to bring the crank into TDC; except it won't turn 360 with the belt off and the valves ALL closed. So there must be something inside a cylinder. Of course the HF camera I already had won't fit through the spark plug hole so I spend my M/C parts money on the new camera they got that WILL (and does) fit nicely through the hole. No complaints about the camera! If you got a sd card you can take pics and video and transfer them to the puter! How cool is that? On sale for $199.00 (sure glad it wasn't $200.00; then it would have been too expensive) I got a 25% off coupon so I got the thing for $150 plus tax.

Now the down sides: it has 2 so far. The 3 accessories that clip (like a clip on a cheap ball point pen) on the camera right behind the lens, a tiny magnet that might lift some wire wheel wire (MAYBE), when you use it the LED light that illuminates for the camera is reflected right back at the camera resulting in a blob of glare you wouldn't believe. All the accessories do this, cover them with black grease and it goes away. There is a tiny hook, and a 90 degree mirror that's nice. 1 problem; THE DG MIRROR ISN'T MAGNETIC, so when the inevitable happens you're gonna play H _LL getting it out of the cylinder through the spark plug hole. Not that the clips aren't tight BUT they can slide right off if you're not careful when you remove the digital head from the spark plug hole. There should be a ball (like on some screw drivers than hold the different bits... or on a socket extension) there to make it even harder to install and remove but better that than trying to grab the thing with coat hanger wire and the hook it comes with. What a lesson in patients !

 

Back to the car, I haven't found anything in #1 cylinder nor do I see anything in #4. Those are the 2 that are near enough to TDC to bind when the engine's #1 piston almost at TDC or just after.

No the belt did not break while the engine was running. I wanted to change it because it was 8k miles past Chrysler's recommendation of 100k miles. This is the punishment for performing preventive maintenance instead of letting the motor grenade it self.

Edited June 30, 2014 by dna9656

[mm482]

If you have all the valves backed off, get a spark hole adapter and with an air compressor, air up each cylinder. You should hear some air leak around piston rings, but no air leak from air intake or exhaust. If you can hear air leaking from air intake or exhaust you have a bent value.

Earl

[mechanic1]

.....when you are sure you don't have a bent valve....maybe an accessory like a/c compressor.....oil pump/distributor....?....and no marks on the tops of the pistons? ....is the oil pan off of it so you can see in the guts?

[Neil86]

Any chance something dropped around one of the belt pulleys and jamming

up?

[mechanic1]

So exactly how and when did the lock-up occur? ......was it running at the time or during or after being worked on? Any chance tranny is causing it? Or maybe eliminating that possibility short of taking it completely out? ....i.e. torque converter bolts?

[dna9656]

So exactly how and when did the lock-up occur? ......was it running at the time or during or after being worked on? Any chance tranny is causing it? Or maybe eliminating that possibility short of taking it completely out? ....i.e. torque converter bolts?

 

Yes t-belt change is only based on mileage not lose of belt. Tranny is not an issue. Torque converter not a player here.

 

Edited July 1, 2014 by dna9656

[dna9656]

If you have all the valves backed off, get a spark hole adapter and with an air compressor, air up each cylinder. You should hear some air leak around piston rings, but no air leak from air intake or exhaust. If you can hear air leaking from air intake or exhaust you have a bent value.

 

Earl

All the valves have no spring pressure on them, the rocker arms are loose, there are no accessories connected, all tensioners are released, no belts are hooked up, the engine is free of all hook ups, the crank is disconnected from the cams, the crank won't rotate 360 degrees, Something MUST be in a cylinder, between the piston top and the head.

[dna9656]

Any chance something dropped around one of the belt pulleys and jamming

up?

 

Nope no chance all those are removed.

[dna9656]

So exactly how and when did the lock-up occur? ......was it running at the time or during or after being worked on? Any chance tranny is causing it? Or maybe eliminating that possibility short of taking it completely out? ....i.e. torque converter bolts?

 

This is the way it went down:

I got GREAT answers from Robert on "just answers.com on the Chrysler's timing marks not lining up IAW the guidance given in the FSM (factory Service Manual) and the Haynes.

He told me 3.5's timing (t-marks) marks aren't machined right and that 1/2 tooth to the mark was good. OK.

Inserted new properly gapped spark plugs, installed them just a 1/2 turn of the threads.

I installed the belt and was 1 tooth off. I wanted the 1/2 tooth. So rotated the fwd. cam to a position where there was slack to wrap around the aft cam; and when I pulled the slack out it would be in time. I pulled the belt around the aft cam to where the tensioner would eliminate the slack and be in time. I pulled the slack out of the belt with the tensioner. I barred the motor around once, but on the second time the crank w/n pass TDC. So I loosened the cam caps releasing valve spring tension on the valves, the valves no longer open; they are all closed. I rotated the crank 1 full revolution and went for the second rotation and it stopped just shy of 360 degrees; now it won't pass 360 in rotation in either direction

 

 

[Venturous Randy]

. So I loosened the cam caps releasing valve spring tension on the valves, the valves no longer open; they are all closed.

 

If you released "valve spring tension" the valves would drop and hit the pistons.

It still sounds to me like you have something laying on top of a piston or you may have driven it into the head and it is stuck there. It sounds like you have narrowed it down to the cylinders that it may be. When it stops, is it a distinct clunk that would be metal to metal?

I feel for you. Many years ago I was rebuilding the carburetor on a neighbor's truck and dropped a small screw down the intake and ended up having to remove the head to get it out.

RandyA

Edited June 30, 2014 by Venturous Randy

[mbrood]

The "air in the spark plug hole" sounds best to me. What's the chance what ever you dropped down the intake is caught between a valve and the valve seat, letting the piston hit the valve? I would use the "air" trick to classify which cylinder is suspect, then I would bounce a hammer on suspected valve stems and listen...

[mechanic1]

Mbrood's suggesting is a good check if you have a compression tester like the TRW one like I have that has a two piece hose with an air chuck on the lower one and a can hook up shop air to it...just be ready for the engine to rotate when you apply pressure. If by doing this, you don't find an air "rush" by a valve...i.e. into the intake or exhaust...you can try this...

you might try rotating the engine till it is to the locked up position and slightly backing it up.....mark the timing belt and belt pulleys on each cam and at the crank also so you can put it back later exactly as you have it now if necessary.....then with the belt removed...check and see which cam if locking it up or if it is the crank. I take it this is a dual cam engine...?

[dna9656]

Originally Posted by dna9656 . So I loosened the cam caps releasing valve spring tension on the valves, the valves no longer open; they are all closed.

If you released "valve spring tension" the valves would drop and hit the pistons.

It still sounds to me like you have something laying on top of a piston or you may have driven it into the head and it is stuck there. It sounds like you have narrowed it down to the cylinders that it may be. When it stops, is it a distinct clunk that would be metal to metal?

I feel for you. Many years ago I was rebuilding the carburetor on a neighbor's truck and dropped a small screw down the intake and ended up having to remove the head to get it out.

RandyA

__________________

Ride as though you are invisible, not invincible.

 

http://banners.wunderground.com/banner/gizmotimetempbig_both/language/www/US/TN/Johnson_City.gif

 

 

I guess I didn't write my description clearly.

 

This engine is a overhead cam engine.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk195/dna9656/cid_6CA797E509BC4DAABB286E91E749F3BCdnaPC.png

 

I should have explained it better. I meant that when removing the rocker arm the spring tension on the CAM is gone allowing the cam to spin freely and the valves are in their respective seats, out of the way. They all LOOK to be the same height relative to the head and each other. There was no metallic clang, the forces involved when the crank was turning was provided by my slow, weak arm turning the crank slowly with a 18mm combination wrench, no sound at all; the crank just stopped rotating. There is no way to turn the crank without re-setting the wrench 5 or 6 times to get one revolution so no speed was involved. No slamming occurred during the making of this mess.

I looked around a lot with the HF camera and haven't seen any hardware in any cylinder so far but I am still learning how to rotate the camera; you have to rotate the entire camera assembly screen and all to get a panoramic view. The lens is NOT a fisheye type nor can you "aim" or manipulate the lens like you would your eyeball. It sees just like a standard camera, you have to move the entire thing to change the image.

I hadn't considered something being stuck to the roof (head); while that is certainly possible I really wasn't spinning the crank with a lot of force, just enough to move it around, there is NO room between the "front" of the motor and the fender, just about 3 or 4 inches. Down below looking over the brake rotor you get to see the crank snout and from there it can be turned less then 90 degress at a time but it's awkward and that too would be a slow job because it's even more awkward than doing it from the top.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2014 by dna9656
expanded explanation

[BlueSky]

This is probably not your problem. But, the hemi engine will drop a valve seat if it runs hot. Otherwise it is bullet proof. And I just read on the LX forum about a guy who has over 300k miles on his 3.5 V6. So, if would appear to be a great engine.

[rbig1]

a chunk of carbon broke loose and wont let it turn over. have had this happen to me a few times. fill the cylinders with carb cleaner let it set for a while. have cyl at top. when it wont turn over anymore find cyl at top its your problem. will smoke like hel when it starts trust me he he:hurts:

[rbig1]

regular unlead puts carbon on top of valves gasahall puts carbon on bottom of valves. if they mix to much alcohol plugs will have red tint to them and red carbon. water in fuel makes it worse. put old plugs in for starting then change them out after mess is over. I have used a shop vac before on plug hole but a valve has to be open. I would just use cleaner.

[dna9656]

This is probably not your problem. But, the hemi engine will drop a valve seat if it runs hot. Otherwise it is bullet proof. And I just read on the LX forum about a guy who has over 300k miles on his 3.5 V6. So, if would appear to be a great engine.

 

That you found anything on the 'net referring to a 3.5 (I mean the 2007 3.5 for a JS (front wheel drive) platform car) is amazing to me!

Most Youtubes, forums, and general info, deal with the rear wheel drive version which (in spite of what you may read) IS DIFFERENT than the front wheel drive edition. I know.... I own one.

An engine (the hemi you mention) that would "DROP A VALVE SEAT" because it's hot or any other reason is a grenade waiting to explode!

I am just guessing but I suppose they put hardened seats in there because of the un-leaded gas? Heads made in the US have had induction hardened valve seats since 1968 or so; way before you and I ever HEARD or un-leaded gas.

Chrysler's engineering used to be straight forward, loaded with common sense. I mean ONE water pump for every engine on the road, 4 bolts and it's off! It matters not if it was a 6 banger or a 440 monster it took the same water pump and points (so far as I know) it was SO cool to learn about Chrysler and it's philosophy towards parts fleet wise. Now it's as bad as Ford.

[dna9656]

a chunk of carbon broke loose and wont let it turn over. have had this happen to me a few times. fill the cylinders with carb cleaner let it set for a while. have cyl at top. when it wont turn over anymore find cyl at top its your problem. will smoke like hel when it starts trust me he he:hurts:

 

Can you expand on what you're saying a little more? "when it wont turn over anymore find cyl at top its your problem" ? I don't understand this sentence.

[dna9656]

regular unlead puts carbon on top of valves gasahall puts carbon on bottom of valves. if they mix to much alcohol plugs will have red tint to them and red carbon. water in fuel makes it worse. put old plugs in for starting then change them out after mess is over. I have used a shop vac before on plug hole but a valve has to be open. I would just use cleaner.

 

The face and back of valves are so clean it's amazing. I will get a valve open to use the shop vac, good thinking!

[rbig1]

when it wont turn over any more. the cylinder closest to tdc will have the chunk of whatever is causing the stoppage. that is where its contacting the head. if your not seeing any carbon on valves prob wont be carbon.

[rbig1]

don't leave us hanging what was it. gremlins,trolls or did I do that:confused07:

[dna9656]

Pending further camera work through he spark plug hole of the other cylinders that could be involved I am pulling the heads this weekend, if it's just carbon, FINE. I'll clean the piston tops and the combustion chambers of the heads, install the new gaskets and new head bolts, install the GD timing belt and re-assemble.

[speakerfritz]

As far as tools from HF, only lesson learned for me is that the China made tools are almost one time use whereas the Taiwan made tools are just as good as craftsman, kobolt, husky, dewalt, etc.

[dna9656]

As far as tools from HF, only lesson learned for me is that the China made tools are almost one time use whereas the Taiwan made tools are just as good as craftsman, kobolt, husky, dewalt, etc.

 

ffice:office" />

 

 

I did a thorough inspection this morning with the cam, rotated the engine back and forth

(pistons up and down) and learned to rotate the camera in the cylinder so it turned the lens on the axis of the cylinder (more or less) so I could see the edges as well as the center of the piston. Lots of CARBON (I think but what's NORMAL?); LOTS is more than you have seen in other engines you have been in. Well I have been in Briggs and Stratton, Pioneer, Ford, Buick, and Chevy (not a lot of difference there) engines and I haven't seen this much carbon before so off come the heads... the first one will be off in 8 bolts...the front one of course.

 

 

[Flyinfool]

This is sure starting to sound like an "as long as you in there" thread.

 

Since the heads are coming off, Valve job? Mill for a little more compression? Boil out?..........

The list can go on.......