I think I am finished...finally

[YamaDuck]

Alright the green 2001 is back together. I had a bad R/R (see attachment). It has a white spot on the back that evidently something inside shorted out and I assume overheated.

 

I am not getting the erroneous reading bouncing all over the place when the R/R warms up like I was.

 

I don't know if these numbers are good or not but this is the voltages and loads. NOTE I have about 200 LED's that come on whenever you crank the motorcycle. They are wired into the lighting system. They are tail lights and side running lights. I will consider those as load load.

 

Here is a breakdown of the voltages. Note that I had the battery on slow 2 amp charge but I took these test before the green light indicating a fully charged battery came on but it also has a needle and the needle showed a pretty complete charge.

 

1) Low Load @ Idle 13.84 volts and revved 13.73 volts (remember 200 LED's)

2) High Load w/o Flashers @ Idle 13.75 volts and revved 13.35 Volts

3) High Load w/ Flashers @ Idle 13.60 volts and revved 13.25 volts

4) High Load w/o Flashers but w/Green LED lights (a lot) @ Idle 13.45 volts and revved 13.25 volts

5) High Load w/o Flashers with two 55 watt driving lights @ Idle 13.40 volts and revved 12.75 volts

6) High Load w/o Flashers w/ Green LED's and w/ Two 55 watt driving lights @ Idle 13.05 volts and revved 12.80 volts

 

High Load is with radio, CB, and High beams on plus everything in the description. The battery is 2+ years old and was bought here from Earl (I think might have been someone else).

 

As you can see I pull a lot of juice with everything on. My main riding configuration is #2 above which is 13.75/13.45.

 

I must have been riding with this configuration for quite a while before my R/R blew without any problems as long as I kept the bike on a trickle charger.

 

Well I hope that this is the end of my charging problems.

 

Harry

[RedRider]

Alright the green 2001 is back together.

 

......

 

 

Well I hope that this is the end of my charging problems.

 

Harry

 

I've been following your saga and am glad it has come to a good conclusion. Chasing electrical gremlins is difficult and frustrating. You've done well.

 

Now, go ride and think HD no more.

 

RR

[Flyinfool]

Unfortunately this is not the end of your charging issues.

In all cases the voltage at higher RPM is less than at idle. This not right.

 

I'm betting on a bad connection in the charging system somewhere.

What is happening is that as the RPM goes up, the ignition is drawing more current, due to a bad connection somewhere, that extra current is causing the voltage to drop more across that bad connection as the current rises.

 

check the voltage from the RR side of the RR connector red wire to battery Pos. it should be zero. You may need to set the meter for a lower voltage to see the drop.

Then check the voltage from the black wire on the RR side of the RR plug to battery Neg, It should be zero.

If these are not zero or at least very near zero, you have a bad connection to find.

[RSTDdog]

So does the voltage return to the higher value at idle after dropping to the lower value when revved up. DO the voltages in 1&2 return after you did 3,4&6? By revved I assume you mean just in neutral? What RPM? Are those voltages taken at the battery? Can you attach your volt meter safely and go ride it?

 

Logic tells me revved should be higher than idle. I'll have to check mine for reference and research the specs in the service manual.

 

Not trying to discourage you but 12.75 and 12.8 in 5 and 6 is breaking even and not charging.

 

The LED lighting looks like it hits it pretty hard. They have electronic ballasts too correct? If the ballasts are noisy (electrically speaking, not actually making noise) voltage feed back form those may affect the current sensing of the voltage regulator??? Just thinking out loud.

[YamaDuck]

Unfortunately this is not the end of your charging issues.

In all cases the voltage at higher RPM is less than at idle. This not right.

 

I'm betting on a bad connection in the charging system somewhere.

What is happening is that as the RPM goes up, the ignition is drawing more current, due to a bad connection somewhere, that extra current is causing the voltage to drop more across that bad connection as the current rises.

 

check the voltage from the RR side of the RR connector red wire to battery Pos. it should be zero. You may need to set the meter for a lower voltage to see the drop.

Then check the voltage from the black wire on the RR side of the RR plug to battery Neg, It should be zero.

If these are not zero or at least very near zero, you have a bad connection to find.

 

Somebody just shoot me...PLEASE!

I checked the plug at the R/R and the DC voltage at each of the 3 white wires was 0.01 I checked with the black wire in each of the white wire positions and checked the white wire in the other two position and they all came back 0.01 volts. I then checked the black wire against the red wire and it came back 12.80 volts. I then started the bike and checked the AC voltage with my analog voltmeter because I don't see AC on my digital voltmeter and it reads 2 volts on all 3 white wires.

 

Now I'm not the sharpest tack in the drawer so I don't know how to check the voltage on just the black wire or just the red wire. Could that bad connection be where the 3 white wires go into the side cover where the stator is and if so do I need to pull the cover to get to the 3 white wires to check them? So please tell me how to check the voltage on the black wire and on the red wire and I'll tear into the bike again tomorrow.

 

:crying:

[Neil86]

Basically you are checking how much drop there is in voltage between 2 points....

so you test RR red vs the battery positive at elevated rpm.

If everything on the harness is clean and tight...should be almost 0.0 V on your display.

 

Repeat the same test on the RR black vs the battery negative.

[YamaDuck]

So does the voltage return to the higher value at idle after dropping to the lower value when revved up. DO the voltages in 1&2 return after you did 3,4&6? By revved I assume you mean just in neutral? What RPM? Are those voltages taken at the battery? Can you attach your volt meter safely and go ride it?

 

Logic tells me revved should be higher than idle. I'll have to check mine for reference and research the specs in the service manual.

 

Not trying to discourage you but 12.75 and 12.8 in 5 and 6 is breaking even and not charging.

 

The LED lighting looks like it hits it pretty hard. They have electronic ballasts too correct? If the ballasts are noisy (electrically speaking, not actually making noise) voltage feed back form those may affect the current sensing of the voltage regulator??? Just thinking out loud.

 

The LED's do hit it pretty hard but only the two Driving lights have a circuit board so I assume maybe a ballast. All the other LED's are just strip LED's with a very very thin wire that is so thin it is difficult to strip the insulation off without breaking the wire.

 

Yes I know 12.75 is breaking even but I hardly every run it with all that stuff on.

 

Everyone is saying the same thing that revved should be higher than idle and that makes sense to me but that is not what the test show.

 

Yes the voltage always returns to within 0.10 almost immediately then slowly returns the rest of the way after a minute or two. Yes the voltage returns after test 4,5, and 6 if I do the 1 and 2 test again. I don't know what RPM it is. I am revving in neutral and I am revving very high but I don't have a tachometer to see the RPM's. All the test were done at the battery. No I don't have anyway to measure it while riding.

[YamaDuck]

Basically you are checking how much drop there is in voltage between 2 points....

so you test RR red vs the battery positive at elevated rpm.

If everything on the harness is clean and tight...should be almost 0.0 V on your display.

 

Repeat the same test on the RR black vs the battery negative.

 

So do I put the black wire of the voltmeter on the neg. terminal and the red lead at the black jack of the R/R plug and then the same thing for the positive side? Do I set the voltmeter on DC?

 

Sorry I don't know anything about electricity:confused24:.

[Neil86]

here is the test procedures for the whole system.....

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=81297

 

You have to pay attention to the meter setting....resistance and short testing are done engine off on the stator wires....AC voltage is done with engine running.

[Neil86]

Yes thats correct....any voltage test you are measuring voltage between 2 points. You want to be on a low DCV setting so you can see any voltage drop.

 

The RR connector will be hooked up still...and you will have to backprobe the RR connector to get a reading. A poor connection somewheres will show up with higher current flows (higher rpm) giving a higher reading.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Neil86

[YamaDuck]

Yes thats correct....any voltage test you are measuring voltage between 2 points. You want to be on a low setting so you can see any voltage drop.

 

The RR connector will be hooked up still...and you will have to backprobe the RR connector to get a reading. A poor connection somewheres will show up with higher current flows (higher rpm) giving a higher reading.

 

I have followed Flyingfools list the best I can up to #6 the Stator. I checked on ground the one over the horn on the right side. I don't know where the other one is. I don't know what or where the solenoid connection is so I did not check that. I checked the fuses under the left side cover along with the fuse and connection to the starter thing under the plastic panel under the left passenger footrest. I had a bad R/R so I replace that. I know where the connector is on the side of the engine but I am afraid to take it off to check the condition of the contacts in the plug. I'm not sure how it comes out and I don't want to break it but everything tested good on the R/R plug end.

 

I think I need to go buy me a good voltmeter. The cheap one I am using came from Harbor Freight and I don't think it is sensitive enough for what Flyinfools talking about in #6 for testing the stator.

 

I will get one tomorrow and do my best to follow everything I can figure out on Flyinfools instructions. I stopped following the procedure when I thought I had fixed the problem.

[Neil86]

I don't know what or where the solenoid connection is so I did not check that. I checked the fuses under the left side cover along with the fuse and connection to the starter thing under the plastic panel under the left passenger footrest.

 

 

The starter thing is the starter solenoid, and the main fuse is next to it. You can test the stator wires at the RR plug.

I realize you feel like leaving well enough alone but chances are something is weak and probably it will get weaker.

[YamaDuck]

The starter thing is the starter solenoid, and the main fuse is next to it. You can test the stator wires at the RR plug.

I realize you feel like leaving well enough alone but chances are something is weak and probably it will get weaker.

 

Boy your so right. I would love to just ride it like it is but your right it would just leave me stranded again down the road. I did check those and they looked good to me. Would coating all the electrical connections with that electrical grease like they use on lights make things better or worse?

The test I ran at the RR connection all checked out but I'm going to get a better voltmeter tomorrow and check again.

[djh3]

You said something about having a digital volt meter. Mine you set to volts then there is a button on the face you push to cycle thru weather you want DC, AC . For OHMS it has 2 settings, one you can read what resistance and the other you can set a tone to go off when you have continuity so if your stuck looking say down into something to get the probl on it you hear beep its OK.

[YamaDuck]

This is the one I have. I put the black lead in the bottom hole and the red lead in the mA hole. I don't know what the top hole is for. I don't have the instructions and it never goes below0.01 and I don't know how to zero it. At least when I get the new one shortly it will have instructions.

[speakerfritz]

 

Not trying to discourage you but 12.75 and 12.8 in 5 and 6 is breaking even and not charging.

.

 

yes...and in other words...not being able to sustain your battery manufactures recomended charge rate ...which is probally 13.75...means that your battery is probally not getting fully charged. you can test this by checking the no load at rest voltage and translating that into the battery state of charge (google for the state of charge chart).

 

so the inplication of having , say a 75% charge battery is that your alternator and regulator will need to participate in the startup process and neither can provide the cold cranking amps it will take to start the engine with out exceeding the systems amp rating.

 

eventually, the regular will fail again.

[YamaDuck]

yes...and in other words...not being able to sustain your battery manufactures recomended charge rate ...which is probally 13.75...means that your battery is probally not getting fully charged. you can test this by checking the no load at rest voltage and translating that into the battery state of charge (google for the state of charge chart).

 

so the inplication of having , say a 75% charge battery is that your alternator and regulator will need to participate in the startup process and neither can provide the cold cranking amps it will take to start the engine with out exceeding the systems amp rating.

 

eventually, the regular will fail again.

I hardly ever ride it with that much turned on to bring it down to 12.75 volts. Most of my riding it is at the 13.75 volts at idle but it drops to 13.35 when I rev the engine. I am going through all the connections to see if I can find a bad connection that may be causing the drop.

[Flyinfool]

You can not always see a bad connection, go through and actually clean each connection that you take apart. Remember in every connector it is not just the points where the two halves of the contact mate together, there is another connection from the wire to the terminal that can also go bad over time.

Just putting dielectric grease on a connector will not fix any issue that is already there. once the connections are all clean and solid, the dielectric grease will help to keep it that way by keeping water and air out of the connection preventing further oxidation.

 

Your HF meter will be adequate for all of the tests except for the stator resistance test. That is why I also included the stator voltage test in the procedure. It takes a fairly expensive meter to properly do the stator resistance test.

 

Set your HF volt meter to the 2000mV DC scale.

The black lead goes in the bottom hole the red lead goes in the middle hole. you will not be using the top hole for any tests that we will be doing.

Turn on all of your lights.

Run the engine at around 3,000 rpm or more, exact is not critical.

Start with the red test lead at the red wire at the RR, and the black test lead on the pos battery terminal. It should be very close to 0.0V.

Put the red test lead on the battery neg terminal and the black test lead on the black wire at the RR. Again it should be very close to 0.0V.

This test will determine if the bad connection is on the pos or neg side of the circuit, it is just one step in narrowing down the problem. Once we get the results we can advise further what to do.

 

Most of this testing takes longer to type and/or read than it does to actually do. It also makes it all take longer by having to wait for someone to come online to interpret your results and the n explain the next step. It is very frustrating to work this through a forum but that is what we have to work with.

[YamaDuck]

You can not always see a bad connection, go through and actually clean each connection that you take apart. Remember in every connector it is not just the points where the two halves of the contact mate together, there is another connection from the wire to the terminal that can also go bad over time.

Just putting dielectric grease on a connector will not fix any issue that is already there. once the connections are all clean and solid, the dielectric grease will help to keep it that way by keeping water and air out of the connection preventing further oxidation.

 

Your HF meter will be adequate for all of the tests except for the stator resistance test. That is why I also included the stator voltage test in the procedure. It takes a fairly expensive meter to properly do the stator resistance test.

 

Set your HF volt meter to the 2000mV DC scale.

The black lead goes in the bottom hole the red lead goes in the middle hole. you will not be using the top hole for any tests that we will be doing.

Turn on all of your lights.

Run the engine at around 3,000 rpm or more, exact is not critical.

Start with the red test lead at the red wire at the RR, and the black test lead on the pos battery terminal. It should be very close to 0.0V.

Put the red test lead on the battery neg terminal and the black test lead on the black wire at the RR. Again it should be very close to 0.0V.

This test will determine if the bad connection is on the pos or neg side of the circuit, it is just one step in narrowing down the problem. Once we get the results we can advise further what to do.

 

Most of this testing takes longer to type and/or read than it does to actually do. It also makes it all take longer by having to wait for someone to come online to interpret your results and the n explain the next step. It is very frustrating to work this through a forum but that is what we have to work with.

I have to take the fairing off and unbolt the RR again but I do have one question as I want to make sure I am doing this correctly. Do I do this test with or without the RR plugged in? Thanks for all the help!

[Neil86]

Yes....plugged in. You need the current flowing through the wires to get a good test

of the connections to the RR.

[YamaDuck]

Yes....plugged in. You need the current flowing through the wires to get a good test

of the connections to the RR.

Ok I just look at the back of the plug. The wires look sealed. Will it hurt anything if I try to push the probes through the plug next to the wire?

 

While I am waiting to find out what this means let me tell you about an aftermarket LED light that probably has nothing to do with what is going on but one of you may have some knowledge about this. I purchased a H4 LED replacement for my H4 Halogen headlight. It fit just fine as it is suppose to be a direct replacement. However I noticed on low beam the blue high beam indicator comes on but it comes on at half intensity. When I put it on high beam the blue indicator light in the instrument panel comes on full intensity. Is there a chance this is messing with the electrical charging system?

Edited June 17, 2014 by YamaDuck

[YamaDuck]

You can not always see a bad connection, go through and actually clean each connection that you take apart. Remember in every connector it is not just the points where the two halves of the contact mate together, there is another connection from the wire to the terminal that can also go bad over time.

Just putting dielectric grease on a connector will not fix any issue that is already there. once the connections are all clean and solid, the dielectric grease will help to keep it that way by keeping water and air out of the connection preventing further oxidation.

 

Your HF meter will be adequate for all of the tests except for the stator resistance test. That is why I also included the stator voltage test in the procedure. It takes a fairly expensive meter to properly do the stator resistance test.

 

Set your HF volt meter to the 2000mV DC scale.

The black lead goes in the bottom hole the red lead goes in the middle hole. you will not be using the top hole for any tests that we will be doing.

Turn on all of your lights.

Run the engine at around 3,000 rpm or more, exact is not critical.

Start with the red test lead at the red wire at the RR, and the black test lead on the pos battery terminal. It should be very close to 0.0V.

Put the red test lead on the battery neg terminal and the black test lead on the black wire at the RR. Again it should be very close to 0.0V.

This test will determine if the bad connection is on the pos or neg side of the circuit, it is just one step in narrowing down the problem. Once we get the results we can advise further what to do.

 

Most of this testing takes longer to type and/or read than it does to actually do. It also makes it all take longer by having to wait for someone to come online to interpret your results and the n explain the next step. It is very frustrating to work this through a forum but that is what we have to work with.

 

Just finished. I checked the voltage across the black and red wires at the RR to make sure I had power with engine off. I had over 13 volts. I set the HF voltmeter on 2000mV DC. I checked the red wire with engine off and it showed zero. I cranked it up and it showed 300 at idle but was slowly going down. When it got to about 230 I revved the engine and it continued to drop but at a much higher rate down to about 150. I then tried the black wire with engine off it showed zero. When I cranked it up it went to about 230 and then slowly started going down. When I revved it the number went down to 140 but at a much faster rate.

 

Just ran the test again only this time I unplugged the H4 LED headlight. The Black wire did not change. Started at 001 and as I revved it stayed at 001. The Red however started at 001 when cranked it went up to 170 and when revved went down to 130. For starters I'm going to put the old Halogen headlight back in.

Edited June 17, 2014 by YamaDuck

[speakerfritz]

simple test will tell all. after you finish riding your bike for the day, disconnect the battery. after 12 hrs come back and check your at rest battery voltage state of charge. if all is well , your battery will be 12.7 volts which means 100% state of charge. that means your charging system is able to keep your battery charged. as you go down in voltage per the attached pic, your state of charge drops. this assestment needs to happen after the battery is disconnected for about 12hrs. if for example, your state of charge is 12.2 volts, you have a 60% charge. operating at a 70% charge will cut your battery life in half.

[YamaDuck]

simple test will tell all. after you finish riding your bike for the day, disconnect the battery. after 12 hrs come back and check your at rest battery voltage state of charge. if all is well , your battery will be 12.7 volts which means 100% state of charge. that means your charging system is able to keep your battery charged. as you go down in voltage per the attached pic, your state of charge drops. this assestment needs to happen after the battery is disconnected for about 12hrs. if for example, your state of charge is 12.2 volts, you have a 60% charge. operating at a 70% charge will cut your battery life in half.

 

I will certainly try that. I want to keep working with Jeff to find out way the voltage drops with higher RPM's. It appears to be on the + side. I do need to ride and check the battery to check the good, bad and ugly.

[djh3]

your top hole on your multimeter is to check amperage thru a line. NOT to exceed 10 amps it what it looks like. So if you were to check how much amp it takes to run say a tail light. You Connect the meter inline and it tells how much to run whatever circuit you are connected in.

Like Jeff said, dont worry about it now. but I would for simplicity disconnect the new headlight and put the OEM type in. Just makes things easier to troubleshoot.