starts, idles, revs great, but misses under load above 2k

[Razorback]

If the battery is showing 12.7 then it is 100% charged, even if the battery is junk. But when the load is applied is when the voltage will drop way down, that is the part that indicates it is bad.

 

 

I had noticed a significant voltage drop during cranking and figured that couldn't be good.

[Razorback]

I cleaned the connection and tried to trace the wire. It goes right into the main harness which goes over to the left frame rail. I can't confirm yet, but I think it drops right back out of that main harness and connect to the coil bracket, right behind the throttle cable junction box for the cruise. Since I can't get to that with even more disassembly, I probed that end of the connection and touched a bolt on the rear frame and had continuity with a measured 0.0 ohms.

Is there any need to actually access and clean that ground with that kind of reading?

I certainly can remove the left side fairing, but would skip it based on the continuity if that's the right thing to do.

 

That blade connection was pretty chalky looking before i cleaned it. I wished i had tested for continuity before I cleaned it.

[Flyinfool]

Continuity does not always signify a good connection. It is possible to show zero ohms but the actual good contact area is so small that the connection will not handle higher current.

The get a better test of a connection you need the bike running with everything turned on that can be turned on and then measure voltage from the frame to the battery negative. If the voltage is more than zero there is resistance somewhere while under load.

 

I had the chalky blade and it was causing me all kinds of grief.

I eliminated that connector and solders the wires together. I saw no purpose in life for that connector to be there.

[frankd]

It's not that difficult to replace the regulator. Put the bike on the center stand, and remove the left passenger foot peg assembly. Then remove the 2 screws under the foot peg assembly (I seem to remember they use phillips head screws, one longer than the other. The regulator slides to the rear and out. I don't think you'll need to remove the left muffler, but I could be wrong.

 

Seeing that your charging voltage is low, you can test that portion of the regulator with it in place. Turn your meter to the 'diode test' position which is usually indicated by a diode symbol. Measure from each stator lead on the regulator to one of the red leads, then reverse the leads and measure again. You should see a diode connected to each white lead. The diode should conduct in one direction and be open in the other. Usually diodes measure about .6-.8 in the forward direction. If you see all 3 diodes, move the lead from the red lead to one of the black leads and repeat the test to each white lead. You should see 3 more diodes. If all six diodes are present, your regulator is NOT the cause of your low charging voltage. On my 83, I did have one of these diodes open and had to replace the regulator. There are usually regulators available on Ebay for a good price.

[Razorback]

Continuity does not always signify a good connection. It is possible to show zero ohms but the actual good contact area is so small that the connection will not handle higher current.

The get a better test of a connection you need the bike running with everything turned on that can be turned on and then measure voltage from the frame to the battery negative. If the voltage is more than zero there is resistance somewhere while under load.

 

I'll give that a try, after i go ahead and expose and clean that connection.

 

 

I had the chalky blade and it was causing me all kinds of grief.

I eliminated that connector and solders the wires together. I saw no purpose in life for that connector to be there.

 

Yeah, i saw that connection and thought..why?

I may also eliminate it as a precaution.

[Razorback]

It's not that difficult to replace the regulator. Put the bike on the center stand, and remove the left passenger foot peg assembly. Then remove the 2 screws under the foot peg assembly (I seem to remember they use phillips head screws, one longer than the other. The regulator slides to the rear and out. I don't think you'll need to remove the left muffler, but I could be wrong.

Seems easy enough, i just hadn't removed the passenger floorboard and mount yet.

 

 

Seeing that your charging voltage is low, you can test that portion of the regulator with it in place. Turn your meter to the 'diode test' position which is usually indicated by a diode symbol. Measure from each stator lead on the regulator to one of the red leads, then reverse the leads and measure again. You should see a diode connected to each white lead. The diode should conduct in one direction and be open in the other. Usually diodes measure about .6-.8 in the forward direction. If you see all 3 diodes, move the lead from the red lead to one of the black leads and repeat the test to each white lead. You should see 3 more diodes. If all six diodes are present, your regulator is NOT the cause of your low charging voltage. On my 83, I did have one of these diodes open and had to replace the regulator. There are usually regulators available on Ebay for a good price.

 

i did test it in that manner, but just using the resistance scale. I'll specifically use the diode test and see what I get.

[Razorback]

I tested the RR unit with it in diode test mode and I get "open" when the the test lead color matches the lead on the RR and about .45 volts with the leads reversed.

 

I thought it was bad, but this makes it appear to be ok?

[frankd]

Well, if you found all 6 diodes measured good (.45 in the forward direction, and open in the reverse direction) and your stator is good, your bike should charge. You measured 12.7V with the bike running.....the battery must be good and fully charged in order to read the charging voltage correctly. Get a known good battery installed and then proceed with the troubleshooting.

 

You measured the stator to ground and it appears fine. You also measured the stator output voltage and all three phases were about equal. You could do the ultimate stator test. Take three 75 Watt 120 volt incandescent lamps. Using 3 sockets with leads (the way they used to light up used car lots in the 50's), connect all 3 to the stator leads (one across each pair of stator wires). When you rev. the bike up, all 3 should be equally bright, and pretty bright. I have seen stators that weren't grounded, but had intermittent shorted turns and this test found the problem. The tests you've already made to the stator will find about 98% of the bad stators in Ventures.

[Razorback]

What happens to the light if it's bad?

Do I understand the method correctly: every lead of a light socket will be plugged into the stator leads, one socket across a pair, and one across another pair, and another? 2 leads in a plug contact (from 2 different bulb sockets)

 

 

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[Razorback]

Wire it like this awesome sketch?http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/24/gezepeva.jpg

 

 

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[frankd]

Yes!!! You need 3 sockets and bulbs, and wire it just like you show. If the stator is good, all 3 lamps will be relatively equal. If it's bad, one or two go dim, indicating lower stator output.

 

My 83 was driving me crazy looking for something intermittent in the charging circuit. I went over all of the normal stuff and everything was fine. I hooked up the lights (regulator disconnected) and they were fine for a couple of minutes, and then one of the lamps got dim and then normal and then dim again. You'll have to bring the engine speed up a bit---they'll be dim at idle, and at about 4000 RPM they get pretty bright. I see by your picture that you still have the stator to regulator connector on you bike. INSPECT THE LEADS NEAR THE PLUGS AND VERIFY THEY AREN"T SHOWING SIGNS OF HEAD DAMAGE. A lot of 1st Gen stator connectors have been removed and the stator leads connected directly to the regulator leads (twisted and soldered or with my favorite way by using high quality ring terminals (AKA Stakons), soldering the leads in the terminal after crimping them, and using brass screws and nuts to connect them. THen I tape up the connections carefully. Any stator lead can go to any white regulator lead.

 

Frank

[jasonm.]

I looked at the one in #3 where I found a dead plug, and I also took apart the cap on #2 and clipped off about 1/2" of wire and reassembled.

Aside from a long barrel shape, what is the surface of the resistor supposed to look like (color)? I think mine looked kinda chalky white.

DO NOT sand down the resistors in the caps. the shorter they are the higher the resistance. CHECK all the caps 1st. your issue is likely the EASIEST thing to fix....corroded caps. They can be carefully cleaned. Get a quility straight head screwdriver. There is a tiny brass washer. I have seen these corrode to nothing. FYI- NGK brand are junk and need to be swapped out every 3 years. Stick with OEM and clean them. you say you have over 22k total resistance. That is too high. It should be 5k spark plug + 10k cap. = 15k +/- 10%. Without taking care of this you are wasting your time. And high resistance causes CRACKED coils. ...seen it. Lastly...checking the stator disconnect the 3 white wire plug and the regulator plug red/black wires. Just to remove the R/R causing odd readings.

Edited May 24, 2014 by jasonm.

[Razorback]

Last night I pulled the left fairing to get to and clean the smaller frame ground connection at the coil mount bracket.

 

While I had easy access, I pulled the spark plug wires at the coil and clipped 1/4" off and reinserted. Did this for both #1 & 2.

 

I also check primary and secondary of each coil, and the cap resistance. Everything was within spec, per the manual.

I'll pull the right side next and check #3 & 4.

 

 

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[Razorback]

I believe I tested the initial resistance check with that "bad" meter. I don't know that I've rechecked since discovering that problem.

 

 

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[Razorback]

CHECK all the caps 1st. ....There is a tiny brass washer. I have seen these corrode to nothing. .

 

i've had 3 of 4 apart already and don't remember a brass washer, just spring and resistor on rear caps, just resisitor on shorter front caps. i may have another look.

 

you say you have over 22k total resistance. That is too high.

 

That resistance check was from the plug end (disconnected from the plug) to ground. I remeasured this morning and got 22.8k. About right for that test, as I have been reading.

 

Lastly...checking the stator disconnect the 3 white wire plug and the regulator plug red/black wires. Just to remove the R/R causing odd readings.

 

Did that and resistance was in spec.

 

I'll be trying the light bulb stator test today as mentioned above.

[Flyinfool]

It's not that difficult to replace the regulator. Put the bike on the center stand, and remove the left passenger foot peg assembly. Then remove the 2 screws under the foot peg assembly (I seem to remember they use phillips head screws, one longer than the other. The regulator slides to the rear and out. I don't think you'll need to remove the left muffler, but I could be wrong.

 

Seeing that your charging voltage is low, you can test that portion of the regulator with it in place. Turn your meter to the 'diode test' position which is usually indicated by a diode symbol. Measure from each stator lead on the regulator to one of the red leads, then reverse the leads and measure again. You should see a diode connected to each white lead. The diode should conduct in one direction and be open in the other. Usually diodes measure about .6-.8 in the forward direction. If you see all 3 diodes, move the lead from the red lead to one of the black leads and repeat the test to each white lead. You should see 3 more diodes. If all six diodes are present, your regulator is NOT the cause of your low charging voltage.

 

This test only tests the rectifier portion of the Regulator/Rectifier it does not test the regulator at all. There is no easy test for the regulator, you just have to eliminate everything else and then the regulator must be the problem. If the RR fails the diode test then you know the rectifier is bad but since the rectifier and the regulator are both in the same part, you can not replace one without the other.

 

Try not to confuse the issue by going after everything at once. Solve the charging issue first, and then go after the other issues. All of the other problems may be caused by the charging problem.

[Neil86]

I would think while doing Franks bulb load test, you could also test the loaded AC voltage, as bulb intensity is a judgement call.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Neil86

[Razorback]

I picked up some cheap lamp bases and 3 60w bulbs because that's what they had at Home Depot. The selection if incandescents is shrinking as you might expect.

If anyone thinks 60w is too low I'll pop into Walmart on the way home for some 75w

[Razorback]

Try not to confuse the issue by going after everything at once. Solve the charging issue first, and then go after the other issues. All of the other problems may be caused by the charging problem.

 

If my testing feels a bit random, I'm testing other problematic bits as I find myself with easy access. Which will change today after I drop the battery back in to crank it.

We are pretty much zeroed in on charging at the moment.

[Razorback]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/28/a4y2e6ut.jpg

Did the bulb test. No dimming or flickering, although the bulb on the far right didn't seem quite as bright, buts it's a very slight difference.

 

 

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[frankd]

Your stator appears to be good. BTW, was the bike warmed up when you took the picture??

[Razorback]

Yes, fan had already come on. I ran it a while longer looking for something to dim or flicker.

 

 

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[Razorback]

Been a couple of days with final checking of everything I could think of and relocating the TCI and changing out the diodes in the process.

 

Still runs the same, has an erratic miss, always indicated on the tach, also have some flickering io instrument panel and indicator lights. At the same time.

 

I'm a bit stumped. I've checked all charging and ignition parts I think I can check.

I've checked stator (although even output, I'm not sure it's high enough, just under 50V each leg.). Rectifier (even swapped it with another used one) all connections cleaned.

Coils, and caps checked. Plugs are new though I'm not sure I trust them.( already replaced one). Can't think of anything else.

It sure seems like a system voltage issue with the flickering I'm seeing. I am running about 13.5 volts across the battery now where I was only in the upper 12s before the R/R swap.

 

 

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[Marcarl]

Been a couple of days with final checking of everything I could think of and relocating the TCI and changing out the diodes in the process.

 

Still runs the same, has an erratic miss, always indicated on the tach, also have some flickering io instrument panel and indicator lights. At the same time.

 

I'm a bit stumped. I've checked all charging and ignition parts I think I can check.

I've checked stator (although even output, I'm not sure it's high enough, just under 50V each leg.). Rectifier (even swapped it with another used one) all connections cleaned.

Coils, and caps checked. Plugs are new though I'm not sure I trust them.( already replaced one). Can't think of anything else.

It sure seems like a system voltage issue with the flickering I'm seeing. I am running about 13.5 volts across the battery now where I was only in the upper 12s before the R/R swap.

 

 

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Two things I think you might have missed, first is to make sure the battery terminals are not loose or corroded on the cable, and the other is that the ground is clean and tight on the engine side of the black, ground cable. When you check the battery terminals, grab the cables and try to remove them from the terminals, and don't be gentle, give them a good hard twist and pull, if they stay, well and good, if they come out, you might have found your problem.

[Razorback]

Cables not corroded, but I'll have to check for tightness. Engine ground had been cleaned and re tightened, but of course I'll double check.

I rode it to work this morning and it did well. Not so great last night, but pretty well this morning.

I had some initial hiccups between 2500ish and 3500 rpms initially. I stopped after about 5 miles and put in 3 gal of 93 octane, just because.

It ran well with only a few hiccups over the next 30 miles (at 3800 rpm).

 

 

 

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