starts, idles, revs great, but misses under load above 2k

[Razorback]

I put a second gen starter on it a few weeks ago while going through carbs and I could really tell a difference, but now it just seems like a weak battery issue

 

 

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[Flyinfool]

It is sounding like you might have multiple gremlins in there.

[Razorback]

I'm hoping someone can tell me what I should be checking.

Any specific connections, other electrical components?

 

 

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[Flyinfool]

If the voltage running at 3K rpm is not 14.0 +/-0.5 volts then if it is high, the RR is bad, if its low, then it could be the RR or stator or a bad connection somewhere.

 

There is a thread on how to test the whole charging system and identify the issue.

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=81297

 

If the voltage is at 14 V then charge the battery and take it in somewhere to get load tested.

[Razorback]

Cranked it and held at 3k and read 15.2V.

 

I also notice that headlight starts slight flickering above 2k rpm, most noticeable around 2500, same as the cutting out it's doing around the same rpm going down the street.

Voltage gauge on the bike follows the climb on the tach from 1-2k. Voltage is moving from about 12v to 13.5 V per the gauge.

 

 

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[Razorback]

Great article. I think I'll test stator and RR in the morning.

 

 

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[Flyinfool]

15.2 is to high.

The high voltage may have cooked the battery.

High voltage will eventually cook most electrical things on the bike.

You definitely have a charging issue. This could be causing all of your other problems.

[Razorback]

I almost hope so. It may be the beginning of the end of my gremlins.

I'll report my findings in the am.

Thanks for hanging in there with me on this.

There's plenty of knowledge on this board, but it kills me waiting on someone to jump in and help.

I sure appreciate it.

 

 

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[Razorback]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/22/e2y7u9ah.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/22/y2ygurap.jpg

I was a little confused when i found the large connector from the RR and it had 2 red and 2 black wires.

I just did the same tests twice using each black and red wire getting the same results. Hope that's ok.

 

Here's what I got:

Black lead on blk wire, testing each white: all open

Red lead on blk wire, each wht wire is 580 ohms

Red lead on red wire, each wht is open

Black lead on red wire, each wht is 580 ohms.

Seems backwards, like you might suspect my leads are plugged in backwards on my meter, but I provide a pic that shows otherwise.

 

Stator tested good with open to ground and 0.7 ohms on each pair combination. I'll attribute the higher range than you specify to the relatively poor resolution of the meter.

 

Looks like I need a RR as you probably already knew.

 

Btw, charged the battery last night for about 7 hrs at 2A and it's sitting at 16V with the charger off.

 

 

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[Flyinfool]

That high voltage on the battery has me cornfused....

I would still get the battery load tested before replacing anything. The high charging voltage may have damaged it and a bad battery can make the RR look bad.

I would still go through all of the steps in the charging system test in order to rule out as many issues as possible befe spending money. I have never been one to just throw money at a problem till it goes away.

But I have never seen a battery with a failure mode of high voltage.:think::think:

[Razorback]

Did I not convincingly confirm that the RR was bad? It's not hooked to anything during testing. Now I'm a tad confused.

I'll see about having my battery tested this evening. I sure don't like blind parts swapping either, but wondered if I should go ahead and get an RR on the way.

 

 

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[Prairiehammer]

Btw, charged the battery last night for about 7 hrs at 2A and it's sitting at 16V with the charger off.

 

Perhaps there is something wrong with your VOM?

 

How can a 12 volt battery have 16 volts?

[Flyinfool]

There is no easy test for the regulator portion of the RR.

The tests listed for while the RR is disconnected are to test the diodes in the rectifier portion of the RR.

 

So since there is no test we can do for the regulator, you have to eliminate everything else that can cause a problem, and can be checked/tested, and then if everything else is good it must be the regulator that is the problem.

[frankd]

Hold the phone Razorback....It looks like you've got one of your meter leads in the wrong jack!!!! The black lead it supposed to be plugged into the COM (common) jack. I can't read how the right jack is labeled, but it appears to be the Voltage lead. Is the left jack labeled 10A? If it is, the left jack is used to measure current only. Put the black lead in the COM jack, and the red in the voltage and resistance jack, and measure EVERYTHING again. A lead-acid battery can not logically measure 14.2V when it's not being charged. 12.6-12-8 is the normal range, although AGM batteries measure a tiny bit higher. Measure the battery in your car/truck and tell us what it measures. Maybe your meter doesn't read voltage accurately?

 

When you check for a grounded stator, connect the black lead to engine ground and touch the red lead to ANY white stator lead.

 

Frank D.

[Flyinfool]

Perhaps there is something wrong with your VOM?

 

How can a 12 volt battery have 16 volts?

 

That is what I was thinking.:think::think:

 

Take your meter and check you cars battery with the engine on and off, if your car is also 16V you have a bad meter.

[Flyinfool]

Hold the phone Razorback....It looks like you've got one of your meter leads in the wrong jack!!!! The black lead it supposed to be plugged into the COM (common) jack. I can't read how the right jack is labeled, but it appears to be the Voltage lead. Is the left jack labeled 10A? If it is, the left jack is used to measure current only. Put the black lead in the COM jack, and the red in the voltage and resistance jack, and measure EVERYTHING again. A lead-acid battery can not logically measure 14.2V when it's not being charged. 12.6-12-8 is the normal range, although AGM batteries measure a tiny bit higher. Measure the battery in your car/truck and tell us what it measures. Maybe your meter doesn't read voltage accurately?

 

When you check for a grounded stator, connect the black lead to engine ground and touch the red lead to ANY white stator lead.

 

Frank D.

 

Dang, I missed that. :bang head: :bang head: :bang head: :bang head: :bang head: :bang head: :bang head:

Someone run over here and smack me..............But not to hard

 

ALL of the testing we are doing should be with the black lead in the common jack.

[Razorback]

Oh dang. I looked at that and kinda wondered.

I'm at work now, but will have someone at the house move the lead and check the battery to start with. I just gotta know ASAP what's going on.

 

 

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[Razorback]

I called my 12 yr old and walked him through it.

He moved the black lead on the meter and retested. Still got 16V. I had him grab a cheap Harbor Freight meter out of the kitchen and it showed fresh charged battery voltage at 13.8 V.

Let's assume for the moment that cheap meter is reasonably accurate. I'll retest this evening with another meter I have here at work.

 

 

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[Razorback]

I'll retest everything when I get home. I wish I didn't work 35 miles from the house or I'd know by noon.

[Razorback]

battery voltage (no charger, not running, just sitting there) = 13.0 volts

 

battery voltage at idle (1000 rpm) 12.6 volts

battery voltage at 2000 rpms 12.7 volts

 

Stator test

open to ground

.3 - .4 ohms between pairs

 

R/R test

 

Black test lead to black wire:

all white wires test between 9.5 and 11.0 MEG ohms...might as well be open as indicated in first test.

Red test lead to black wire:

all white wires test about 325k ohms (.324M ohms on meter)

 

Red test lead to red wire:

all white wires test between 18 and 19 MEG ohms.. again,essentially open

Black test lead to red wire:

all white wires test about 350k ohms

 

I put my high beam light on with it idling and i see the blue indicator slightly pulsing with the idle.

 

I cleaned by ground wire down by the water pump. are there other ground points to check?

 

In the meantime (while you guys find and respond to my update) i'm pulling my battey to have it tested.

[Flyinfool]

You really need to go though the whole test procedure.

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=81297

We can spend days taking pot shots at the problem and still miss something.

 

I still am GUESSING that it is the RR but all of the tests have to be done to rule out everything else so that the RR is the only thing left.

[Razorback]

Autozone tested my battery and showed it 100% charged, sitting at 12.7V, but said it was bad.

 

I tested the stator running before pulling the battery and got 47VAC on each wire pair combination at 2400 rpm steady.

 

The only thing I haven't done per your article is clean solenoid, main fuse and frame ground connections. Don't know where the frame grounds are. I'll clean what I can find.

 

I'm going to go ahead and order a RR unit since it continues to test bad, and is done so completely disconnected, without apparent influence from battery voltage or charging system.

 

I should probably spring for an AGM battery while I'm at it.

 

Will anymore tests be valid ( after I find and clean all remaining connections) before purchasing a new battery?

 

 

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[Flyinfool]

If the battery is showing 12.7 then it is 100% charged, even if the battery is junk. But when the load is applied is when the voltage will drop way down, that is the part that indicates it is bad.

 

A bad RR can take out a battery.

 

It looks like the stator is ok.

 

There are 2 wires connected to the negative battery terminal, the big one that goes to the engine ground near the water pump that you already found. Then there is a smaller black wire that goes to a one pin connector right in front of the battery. That is the wire that is the ground for everything on the bike except the starter motor. Clean that one pin connector and then try to follow that smaller black wire to the frame ground. I do not know where that frame ground is located, I never had a reason to find it yet.

 

But it does look like I guessed right that you have multiple gremlins, So far a bad battery and a bad RR. I also suspect that frame ground.

Then there could still be your original issue, or it all could have been these gremlins playing havoc due to low voltage in all circuits. In your original post you mentioned that it would stumble as the load and rpm went up. that lead everyone to checking the spark system,, low voltage will cause a weak spark that may not make the jump as the load and rpm go up. Low voltage could also cause the fuel pump to have low pressure and not keep up.

Hopefully this will kill all of the gremlins in one fell swoop.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Flyinfool

[Razorback]

Hopefully this will kill all of the gremlins in one fell swoop.

 

I certainly hope so.

I just cleaned the main fuse and solenoid connections. They looked pristine as did the neg batt cable connection by the water pump. I scrubbed everything with a brass brush anyway.

I also pulled the battery box to see what access i can to coils and TCI, just in case. I had the battery out anyway.

 

Now to chase that frame ground you mentioned.

 

I reeaaaalllly appreciate your patience and help with this. You guys can really shortcut a lot of trial and error.

[Razorback]

That RR unit looks like a bear to get off. Any tips?

I'm not even sure at what angle to attack it.