Ever thought of building your own Trike or, what to do when your not bailing water...

cowpuc · May 20, 2014

One of my neighbors, Dave, decided to go the route of building a trike out of his wifes 05 Sporty instead of spending the big bucks on buying one finished.. My other neighbor, Larry, and I have built up several "performance" Harleys now together and, in his words, "make a good team" so he "volunteered" us to help with Daves project..

The "kit" is one out of Florida, uses a Dana rear axe (GORGEOUS PIECE OF WORK), custom swing arm (REALLY A WORK OF ART!!), came with a raw glass body - not really that impressed with it, 235x15 tires on Cragers..

The kit is sold as a "Bolt together project",,, yea right.. If you have ever contemplated doing one of these please note that this is NOT a beginning bike builders type of deal.. After Dave got the package home I headed down there.. Noticed right away on the rear axe this bright yellow sticker that says something like,, after aligning yada dee yada and so on, the mounting blocks have to be welded on the axel - this being just an example of the multitude of advanced building understanding this project entails!!

After we get all the fitment done, we will spend some time on the road with it, pull it all back down for fiberglass finishing, powder coating, painting, weld touch ups if needed (amazing how much a person loses with age - sight, shaky hands, achey backs dont make for those real pretty welds of yesteryear).. I have also been hounding Dave about the NEED for raking it out - man those sporties are shorties.. He wants to ride it once with the stock rake to see what its like before putting more cash into raked triple trees..

Anyway, starting from placing a running/riding 05 883 Sporty on the bench to the point of having the swing arm mounted, rear axe on as in pics was about 5 hours of time for the three of us, and two of us are pretty experienced builders.. May not look like we accomplished much but there is LOTS of tinker work involved,, like taking the differential apart to do the new belt fitment,, and on and on...

NOT COMPLAINING THOUGH!! It is a GREAT project and a whole lot more fun than this continuing project of bailing water.. AND ITS FLIPPING POURING RAIN AGAIN,, ARGGGGGGGGG!!

Here's some pics,, got some vids too I will be sticking up on youtube for anyone who might be interested in this madness..

Another interesting day....

Puc

Venturous Randy · May 20, 2014

Yes, I have. I picked up a 96 1500 Goldwing with reverse from a friend that is sitting in the garage with a broken gear that is part of the starter system. It appears it had a hydrolock and I am not sure if there is any more damage, as a bent rod. It is a nice complete bike and I am thinking about making a trike out of it.

If you feel good about your project, I may try to find out what this would cost for the Wing.

RandyA

camos · May 20, 2014

Recently I have been having thoughts on the practicality of getting the front end from a small rear wheel drive car like a Miata or a Smart Car (I think they are rear wheel drive) and attaching it to the steering head of a Venture Royal or more likely a Goldwing since they do have the reverse option. Keeping the fairing and windshield as original would mean no messing with electronics and would not require a great deal of front end body work or messing with the drive train.

What do you think?

etcswjoe · May 20, 2014

Recently I have been having thoughts on the practicality of getting the front end from a small rear wheel drive car like a Miata or a Smart Car (I think they are rear wheel drive) and attaching it to the steering head of a Venture Royal or more likely a Goldwing since they do have the reverse option. Keeping the fairing and windshield as original would mean no messing with electronics and would not require a great deal of front end body work or messing with the drive train.

What do you think?

When I was growing up we would take VW bugs cut them pretty much in half weld part of a bike frame to them and instant trike.

An example I found.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3197/2873344860_9fbfdbe078.jpg

camos · May 21, 2014

When I was growing up we would take VW bugs cut them pretty much in half weld part of a bike frame to them and instant trike.

An example I found.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3197/2873344860_9fbfdbe078.jpg

Yes, I have seen a few of those VW hybrids. Most of them, although very practical, were a little too funky for me and the wrong configuration.

About 40 years ago I had an opportunity to take a few rides on a bicycle trike and found it to be extremely unstable in the corners. Then there was the ATC which, quite rightly I think, was banned for being too dangerous.

I haven't driven my car in 6 years and I'm not ready to give up on 2 wheels yet but at some point it will be inevitable. The Spyder is great but unfortunately will never be in my budget. Seems to me attaching the front end of a car to a bike would be less difficult and better than doing the same with the rear end.

Sent from La-La Land North..... hahahahahaha.

Prairiehammer · May 21, 2014

Puc, is that rear end a differential or is it a 'locked' straight axle?

May 21, 2014

Great write up, Puc....

Trike building 101.

Hey tell your neighbor two things:

Yes to the rake kit. Otherwise it will have a noticable head shake and maybe even unstable at speed.

Speaking of speed...it looks like quite a reduction in overall gearing. You might suggest to the neighbor that he think about adding the 1200 kit to that Sporty...or its gonna be a bit underpowered for hiway use..and the front pulley could be upsized to take advantage of the bigger motor.

Prairie: Normally, conversion trikes use an 'open' differential..in this case its a belt that turns the ring gear...a solid, 'locked' axle would not work.

Edited May 21, 2014 by tx2sturgis

Prairiehammer · May 21, 2014

Prairie: Normally, conversion trikes use an 'open' differential..in this case its a belt that turns the ring gear...a solid, 'locked' axle would not work.

Yes, I realize an open differential is necessary, but my inquiry was based upon the appearance of the rear end 'pumpkin'. It doesn't appear to have a housing large enough to accommodate any spider gears.

Are both wheels driven in this rear end?

And BTW, Puc did you mean to say the rear end is a DNA, instead of Dana?

Edited May 21, 2014 by Prairiehammer

cowpuc · May 22, 2014

Yes, I have. I picked up a 96 1500 Goldwing with reverse from a friend that is sitting in the garage with a broken gear that is part of the starter system. It appears it had a hydrolock and I am not sure if there is any more damage, as a bent rod. It is a nice complete bike and I am thinking about making a trike out of it.
If you feel good about your project, I may try to find out what this would cost for the Wing.
RandyA

Will do Randy!!

Recently I have been having thoughts on the practicality of getting the front end from a small rear wheel drive car like a Miata or a Smart Car (I think they are rear wheel drive) and attaching it to the steering head of a Venture Royal or more likely a Goldwing since they do have the reverse option. Keeping the fairing and windshield as original would mean no messing with electronics and would not require a great deal of front end body work or messing with the drive train.

What do you think?

If I am understanding this correctly Camo, you are saying that you want to end up with your bike set up like a quad front end - sort of like a Spyder?? Using the front spindles and a-arms ONLY right???

Never owned a Smart Car or a Miata so I am not familiar with the type of front ends they have on them.. It seems it would be difficult to incorporate a Strut Style front end - it would almost have to be a style with upper and lower A-arms..

Something to think about is steering geometry, in building choppers thru the years one of the most critical issues that I had to watch was the amount of trail that the rake on the neck produced.. The longer the forks, the more important it was to come out with very little positive trail. I did an 18 over at 46 degrees one time (longest Chop I ever built) that I actually had to do the neck twice cause I built it the first time at 3 1/2 inches of positive trail - I ALWAYS had GREAT results at that figure - end results on those figures resulted in a front end that would "flop" at speeds under gyro action on the front wheel (still VERY stable at speeds over a couple miles an hour).. Pulled it down to 1/2 inch of positive trail on the second try and it came out perfect.. You probably all ready know this but if you fall into negative trail, your bike will steer like a grocery cart front end - wooble wooble and be unridable..

Now,, all that said,, in car language we are talking "caster and camber".. To little caster will give you the same results as negative trail.. It would steer like a high speed garden tractor.. To much and it would be very lazy and unresponsive in its steering.. It makes me how on earth one would go about figuring out the geometry of combining the neck angle on a bike with the necessary geometry in a car and have it come out correctly,,,, I am sure someone on here is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more intelligent about all this stuff than I am and perhaps they will respond with some other thoughts:backinmyday:

Puc, is that rear end a differential or is it a 'locked' straight axle?

It is a differential Prairie

Great write up, Puc....

Trike building 101.

Hey tell your neighbor two things:

Yes to the rake kit. Otherwise it will have a noticable head shake and maybe even unstable at speed.

Speaking of speed...it looks like quite a reduction in overall gearing. You might suggest to the neighbor that he think about adding the 1200 kit to that Sporty...or its gonna be a bit underpowered for hiway use..and the front pulley could be upsized to take advantage of the bigger motor.

Prairie: Normally, conversion trikes use an 'open' differential..in this case its a belt that turns the ring gear...a solid, 'locked' axle would not work.

I surmise that after he rides it once he will find out why you and I are both preaching the same message on tossing on some rake triple trees Brian:backinmyday:

I thought the same thing when I looked at the rear pulley on that axle Brian,,,, I actually counted the teeth on the new = 70, count on the (counted them myself too) = 68.. A HUGE factor in this was the size of the tire package he got,,, way to tall (gearing up), is exchanging them for a 60 series..

TOTALLY agree on the 1200 kit.. First words out of my mouth when I saw the tire width and lifted the axle into place (HEAVY) was the suggestion of dropping on the 1200 kit, torque cam, 1200 clutch W/ diaphram spring.. Its actually his wifes trike so Daves like,, she dont need no moe din a 883..

Yes, I realize an open differential is necessary, but my inquiry was based upon the appearance of the rear end 'pumpkin'. It doesn't appear to have a housing large enough to accommodate any spider gears.
Are both wheels driven in this rear end?
And BTW, Puc did you mean to say the rear end is a DNA, instead of Dana?

Prairie its a US made Dana 44 spider gears differential - CNC machined solid steel gear housing, Timkin bearings,, a real gorgeous piece of equipment (REAL WORK OF ART!!),, suppose to be the sturdiest rear end on the trike market today..

It operates just like a car,,, spin one wheel and the other goes the other way

They do offer limited slip but not really sure that it would be a good idea on a trike,, maybe fun for off roading but not sure how that would work out on pot hole invested, gravel covered, ice covered roads of Michigan.. Personally,,, I would LOVE to build a locker to keep up with the likes of those guys on the Urals off roading and be able to ride cross country....

camos · May 22, 2014

If I am understanding this correctly Camo, you are saying that you want to end up with your bike set up like a quad front end - sort of like a Spyder?? Using the front spindles and a-arms ONLY right???

I wasn't thinking about making it like a quad or trying to re-invent anything. Keep the steering and suspension OEM and replace any structural body parts with a frame to support them and attach to the MC. Like a V or a wide U coming down from the steering head to the front end with a couple of frame pieces coming back on either side of the MC engine frame to about where the swingarm is located. Kind of like the running boards on a standard rear trike.

Think of the days when vehicles had frames that the body was attached to. Since most vehicles these days do not have a frame it may not be so straight forward. Issues regarding trail would not be relevant since the handlebars would not be trying to steer the whole front end. The handlebars could operate a rack and pinion steering using a push-pull cable or two pull-pull cables.

Here is a link to an open source vehicle concept that may or may not ever get into production but might provide somewhat of a picture of what I am trying to describe. This thing will probably never be able to be licensed which is why it is beneficial to start with parts that work together are already DOT approved.

JohnT · May 22, 2014

The way I am day dreaming of going the Spyder route is to make a front end like a sport 4 wheeler (Quad, ATV, whatever you call them in your area. Here, they are wheelers)

On a Honda 300 EX I had I put wider A arms from 400 EX and a buddy made the upper arms adjustable. Once dialed in it was stable at speed and great for fire roads or even track use. It was tough in tight woods trails though.

I don't think it would be all that tough to make the conversion with a street bike. Style it like a sport ATV. Get the caster, and the shock angle right and down the road it goes.

The good news is I know a NYS inspection station that will sticker anything with a valid registration if need be. The bad news is I don't heal so quickly any more. The test pilot phase could be, interesting.

The bad news is that this will probably never happen due to financial constraints. My wallet says if I can't ride 2 wheels I will have to put on training wheels.

JohnT · May 22, 2014

" Then there was the ATC which, quite rightly I think, was banned for being too dangerous."

Oh my God! They were a vehicle that could swap ends or roll over in a heart beat under the right circumstances. Like if they were moving faster than 20 MPH.

I rode one for 1 season before going to a quad. You want to talk about some SPECTACULAR wrecks.

Prairiehammer · May 22, 2014

Prairie its a US made Dana 44 spider gears differential - CNC machined solid steel gear housing, Timkin bearings,, a real gorgeous piece of equipment (REAL WORK OF ART!!),, suppose to be the sturdiest rear end on the trike market today..

Well, I am thoroughly confused. That trike rear end doesn't look anything like a Dana 44, but it does look just like a DNA trike rear end.

DNA belt drive:

Dana 44:

May 22, 2014

Well, I am thoroughly confused. That trike rear end doesn't look anything like a Dana 44, but it does look just like a DNA trike rear end.

Yep...looks like a DNA axle to me too.

Their website is 'under construction'....I was going look over the website and see if it made any mention of who made the gears and the housing, and what it was based on, other than just a generic open differential design with normal spider gears.

Maybe they do all their own machining...or maybe they buy gears from a company like Andrews.

I can see where a quick glance of the name during assembly might look like the name DANA rather than DNA.

Prairiehammer · May 22, 2014

Apparently, DNA does not manufacture that particular rear end. They import theirs from China.

Paughco makes a trike rear end in the US but it is substantially different from the one Puc's friend has on his Sportster. The Paughco US made one has the specs that Puc cited: "The CNC-machined solid steel gear housing holds US-made Dana 44 spider gears, This is absolutely the strongest trike axle available today. Also featured are automotive-style Timken-type splined wheel hubs ..... extremely strong and designed for severe applications."

Here's a pic of the Paughco US made rear end:

http://freebirdcustommotorcycles.com/shopfreebird/images/categories/PTA-3paughcoparts.jpg

But, perhaps not surprisingly, Paughco also sells an imported trike rear end that is identical to the DNA one (and the one on Puc's project).

Paughco Imported differential:

http://freebirdcustommotorcycles.com/shopfreebird/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1013_111_1581_1593_1602&products_id=7376

http://freebirdcustommotorcycles.com/shopfreebird/images/categories/AX-2000paughcoparts.jpg

What is the brand of the trike conversion package, Scott?

Edited May 22, 2014 by Prairiehammer

May 22, 2014

The Paughco US made one has the specs that Puc cited: "The CNC-machined solid steel gear housing holds US-made Dana 44 spider gears, This is absolutely the strongest trike axle available today. Also featured are automotive-style Timken-type splined wheel hubs ..... extremely strong and designed for severe applications."

This would seem to corroborate Puc's statements...Dana 44 guts in that beast.

Prairiehammer · May 22, 2014

Yeah, maybe, but the Puc rear end doesn't look like the US made Paughco, it looks like the Chinese Paughco.

cowpuc · May 22, 2014

Dave,, my bud who I have been helping with the project, bought the "Kit" from a company out of Florida,, as I recall (may be wrong on this too) he told me the name of the Company was "My Trike Life" or something along that line.. The info on the axle I wrote was a quote from my neighbor - Dana 44 spider gearing, toughest rear end ya dee yada as stated to him buy the "My Trike Life" people.. Dave also said that when he spoke to the company intitally about purchasing the "kit" they told him that Paughco is one of their suppliers (of course, Paughco is HUGE - have used their stuff for years myself), dont know for sure if Paughco is where they accuired the rear axe - its very possible they have connections with the manufacture... I wasnt involved in the purchase of any of the stuff,, just helping my neighbor with a project he bought into and found out it there was a lot more to it than he originally thought..

I do know that the axel was sold to him with the understanding that it was in fact a "DANA" cause he was braggin about it to me.. I KNOW it doesnt look like a Dana car pig BUT trust me,, I also do KNOW it is a fully functional rear differential,, with spider gears...

All that said,, I am sure it is possible its a Chinese clone.. I watched them buggers literally "copy specs" on a BBR Pitbike at the Dealer Expo (Dealer Tradeshow) in Indianapolis back in 2001, the next year that had an identical bike to the one BBR had built,, BBR kit was 1650 Dealer Cost, COMPLETE BIKE from China that "matched" the BBR kit was $235 (had to buy a shipping container full though).. Bottom line,, copying is what they do and I KNOW they copy everything....

cowpuc · May 22, 2014

I wasn't thinking about making it like a quad or trying to re-invent anything. Keep the steering and suspension OEM and replace any structural body parts with a frame to support them and attach to the MC. Like a V or a wide U coming down from the steering head to the front end with a couple of frame pieces coming back on either side of the MC engine frame to about where the swingarm is located. Kind of like the running boards on a standard rear trike.

Think of the days when vehicles had frames that the body was attached to. Since most vehicles these days do not have a frame it may not be so straight forward. Issues regarding trail would not be relevant since the handlebars would not be trying to steer the whole front end. The handlebars could operate a rack and pinion steering using a push-pull cable or two pull-pull cables.

Here is a link to an open source vehicle concept that may or may not ever get into production but might provide somewhat of a picture of what I am trying to describe. This thing will probably never be able to be licensed which is why it is beneficial to start with parts that work together are already DOT approved.

Basically the front of a car with a motorcycle frame/engine/swingarm/rear wheel bolted on to it? Could be an interesting build...

Apparently, DNA does not manufacture that particular rear end. They import theirs from China.
Paughco makes a trike rear end in the US but it is substantially different from the one Puc's friend has on his Sportster. The Paughco US made one has the specs that Puc cited: "The CNC-machined solid steel gear housing holds US-made Dana 44 spider gears, This is absolutely the strongest trike axle available today. Also featured are automotive-style Timken-type splined wheel hubs ..... extremely strong and designed for severe applications."
Here's a pic of the Paughco US made rear end:
http://freebirdcustommotorcycles.com/shopfreebird/images/categories/PTA-3paughcoparts.jpg

But, perhaps not surprisingly, Paughco also sells an imported trike rear end that is identical to the DNA one (and the one on Puc's project).
Paughco Imported differential:
http://freebirdcustommotorcycles.com/shopfreebird/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1013_111_1581_1593_1602&products_id=7376
http://freebirdcustommotorcycles.com/shopfreebird/images/categories/AX-2000paughcoparts.jpg

What is the brand of the trike conversion package, Scott?

I think it was something like "My Trike Life" out of Florida Prairie.. Neighbors a truck driver and wont be back home now for a few days.. I will have to wait till than ask him if that is correct...

Prairiehammer · May 22, 2014

Thanks, Scott.

I found "The Trike Life" on eBay, based in Florida. And they are selling the DNA rear end here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Trike-Rearend-DNA-Axle-Honda-Harley-Davidson-Kawasaki-Suzuki-Limited-Slip-Dif-/271221505673

So, that answers several questions for me.

Thanks again.

Mike G in SC · May 22, 2014

Don't have time to read the thread right now (so sorry if this is duplication) but

this is interesting,,,,, and COOL.

http://www.tiltingmotorworks.com/

cowpuc · May 23, 2014

Thanks, Scott.
I found "The Trike Life" on eBay, based in Florida. And they are selling the DNA rear end here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Trike-Rearend-DNA-Axle-Honda-Harley-Davidson-Kawasaki-Suzuki-Limited-Slip-Dif-/271221505673

So, that answers several questions for me.

Thanks again.

You betcha Prairie,, your more than welcome!

camos · May 26, 2014

The way I am day dreaming of going the Spyder route is to make a front end like a sport 4 wheeler (Quad, ATV, whatever you call them in your area. Here, they are wheelers)
On a Honda 300 EX I had I put wider A arms from 400 EX and a buddy made the upper arms adjustable. Once dialed in it was stable at speed and great for fire roads or even track use. It was tough in tight woods trails though.
I don't think it would be all that tough to make the conversion with a street bike. Style it like a sport ATV. Get the caster, and the shock angle right and down the road it goes.

The steering and suspension from a car are already DOT approved and have the camber and caster adjustments and shocks built in. Should be able to get a rear ender donor vehicle that's been written off from a wrecking yard for less than the cost of one of those trike rear ends that have been mentioned in this thread.

The good news is I know a NYS inspection station that will sticker anything with a valid registration if need be.

Around here, there is no way a trike with parts from an ATV would be allowed to be registered for road use.

Yes cowpuc it would be an interesting build. Since no one seems to have done it, I'm wondering what I'm missing.

cowpuc · May 26, 2014

Don't have time to read the thread right now (so sorry if this is duplication) but
this is interesting,,,,, and COOL.

http://www.tiltingmotorworks.com/

Indeed, that is awesome.. Years ago I picked up a couple of Honda Gyro's.. A weird design of a moped that articulated at a self centering pivot point.. It was hilarious cause I bought em dirt cheap at an auction cause everyone there thought they were broken - there was a locking lever on them that when released and sitting still the front end would just lay down giving the appearance that something was majorly wrong..

Simular idea to this tilting idea Mike.. COULD THOSE PUPPIES CORNER!!!!

The steering and suspension from a car are already DOT approved and have the camber and caster adjustments and shocks built in. Should be able to get a rear ender donor vehicle that's been written off from a wrecking yard for less than the cost of one of those trike rear ends that have been mentioned in this thread.
Around here, there is no way a trike with parts from an ATV would be allowed to be registered for road use.

Yes cowpuc it would be an interesting build. Since no one seems to have done it, I'm wondering what I'm missing.

Just thinking out loud here Camos,, as long as you ended up with same verticle angle centerline thru the a-arms on the motorcycle mount as it was on the car frame that should work.. The other question would be the perpendicular line from the rear wheel and across the front end.. In car front end alignment work its crucial to understand the association of that perpendicularity, many years ago when I did alignment work for Goodyear we used mirrors, alignment rods and an alignment rack to capture that angle in order to calibrate the alignment.. Some cars used shims in the control arms to make adjustments - those shims were set in .001 increments (if memory serves correctly) and its amazing how this small amount of change in setting the alignment effects the way a car steers and tracks..

I am sure that know adays an alignment rack utilitlises lazers for doing this..

It seems that only having 1 rear wheel to locate from would make locating the rear axis somewhat more difficult.. Maybe building a good frame jig to work from would do it BUT, for final alignment tweeking I not sure how you would get those locating points..

By the way,, you do realize that the T-Rex (and others) are built on this whole idea dont ya? Certainly not a situation that its never been done, more about having the time and equipment to do it correctly..

Edited May 26, 2014 by cowpuc

camos · May 27, 2014

Just thinking out loud here Camos,, as long as you ended up with same verticle angle centerline thru the a-arms on the motorcycle mount as it was on the car frame that should work.. The other question would be the perpendicular line from the rear wheel and across the front end.. In car front end alignment work its crucial to understand the association of that perpendicularity, many years ago when I did alignment work for Goodyear we used mirrors, alignment rods and an alignment rack to capture that angle in order to calibrate the alignment..

Perpendicularity huh? I love it even more than functionality!!!

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, getting the perpendicular and horizontal alignment of the bike frame and drive wheel exactly in line with to the front end steering and suspension is absolutely critical for proper handling. However, probably no more so than it would be for a rear wheeled trike configuration. Building an alignment jig of some sort would seem to me to be the only way to be certain of getting the two sections pointing in the same direction.

I am sure that know adays an alignment rack utilitlises lazers for doing this.. It seems that only having 1 rear wheel to locate from would make locating the rear axis somewhat more difficult.. Maybe building a good frame jig to work from would do it BUT, for final alignment tweeking I not sure how you would get those locating points..

Don't think it would be all that difficult to extend the rear wheel positions out to the side for final alignment tweaking of the front.

By the way,, you do realize that the T-Rex (and others) are built on this whole idea dont ya? Certainly not a situation that its never been done, more about having the time and equipment to do it correctly..

Yes, I've seen a T-Rex in person. Very cool looking vehicle. There is also a sporty little 3 wheel car using a Porche front end and engine that may make it into production in Vancouver B.C. Those ones all use car engines though. What I have not been able to find is any home built front end trikes never mind a front end trike kit.

After reading a few threads on how tiring it is to steer rear end trikes I'm pretty sure I don't want one even if they do look very cool.

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