Time for second gear repair

[yamagrl]

Second gear is skipping quite often now and it is time to "Bite the bullet!" My biggest hesitation is that I will not be able to ride Big Red for a while and I fear the withdrawl symptoms of stopping cold turkey.

 

After reading about it and researching a bit I have decided to do it myself (mostly).

 

Not long after I hooked up with Big Red I realized that I was hopelessly in love with this "Hunk" of a motorcycle! I have since forsaken nail polish for grease and gunk.

 

I have a bit of various mechanics background.

 

Any-whoo... I do have a few questions...

 

• In one of the postings the author said that he removed the rear wheel and drive shaft, then reinstalled it to facilitate moving the bike around. Is it easier to get the wheel and drive shaft out or is it easier to get the motor off of the drive shaft?
   
  
• Should the oil pump be replaced or are there particular components that should be replaced besides the seals & o-rings listed?
   
  
• Should the water pump be replaced or the drive gear, impeller etc?
   
  
• I think I read something about middle gear backlash. (seems like a good time to do this?) Pointers? Threads?
  

 

Certainly I will be chiming in with a plethora of questions. I'll post pics periodically.

 

Here are the links to the postings I plan to kinda follow.

1. http://www.venturers.org/Tech_Library/?action=article&cat_id=001006&id=250
   
2. http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=508
   

 

Of course, I also have the Tech Bulletin as well as the Yamaha Service manual, print and pdf.

[dingy]

It is much easier to get motor out of and back in frame with the swing arm removed.

 

I haven't replaced oil pump on motors I have rebuilt. If you are concerned about pump, replace it. I can get you info on an upgrade kit for the oil pump to increase oil pressure at idle.

 

At a minimum, replace the plastic impeller in water pump with a metal one. Seal replacement is also a good idea. Drive gear is dependent on wear on existing one. I haven't replaced one yet.

 

Middle gear back lash can be checked rather easily to see if it is in spec. Details in service manual.

 

Lot of things to look at inside motor. Piston ring wear, verify rings are at optimum side of specs, if below mid specs, consider replacing. About $120 for set.

 

Every gasket & o-ring should be replaced.

 

How many miles on motor?

 

Only way to determine if they are in spec is to plasti gauge them PIA for mains & balancer shaft, easy on rods. Probably $150 roughly to replace all bearings.

 

With 2nd gear problem, there may be related shift fork damage and gear gear damage. Depends how bad it has gotten.

 

It would be very helpful to get the video that details step by step rebuild of motor.

 

Gary

[yamagrl]

Where do I find the video of rebuild? I think I will most likely not tear into the motor side of things. 58k on the clock. So most of the engine should be still in pretty good shape I think its a good gamble to leave it alone and fix the transmission

 

Sent from my moto X

[yamagrl]

I figure I will determine which gears forks etc may need to be replaced when i get it apart and can inspect them. Please send me info on the upgraded oil pump kit

 

Sent from my moto X

[Venturous Randy]

How do you intend to go about fixing the transmission, replacing parts, undercutting gears or replacing whole transmission?

There are several of us that have done this and will be glad to talk with you about the details. If you will check my profile, you can get my phone number and you can call me at anytime, as I am retired.

RandyA

[yamagrl]

From what I gather, the dilemma is happening at about the normal mileage. I have 58k. What I plan is to do is:

 

1. order all of the seals, gaskets, etc that I know will have to be replaced. On the outside chance that there is no damage or wear that would require replacement of other components.

 

2. Remove the engine, disassemble the trans but leave the motor side of things alone for now. I am aware that there is likely damage to the #1 shifting fork, #2 gears, drive axle, shift fork guide bars as well as a host of other things. But... I do have my fingers crossed.

 

3. Fix transmission

 

4. Put the engine back in

 

This will be somewhat of a learn as I go experience. Thanks for the offer... I will likely call.

 

Tomorrow (Mothers Day, Go figure!) I will undress it, drain oil, coolant, remove starter, air box, karber-eighters and whatever else to get ready to lift that "mother" out. Maybe I'll have it ou tomorrow and maybe not. Either way, after that, I have to work next week. So it will be sloww going until the end of the week.

 

I do not plan to get in a big hurry, but I don't plan on making a career out of it either. I have Big Red to ride. Working, polishing etc. is secondary.

 

 

How do you intend to go about fixing the transmission, replacing parts, undercutting gears or replacing whole transmission?

There are several of us that have done this and will be glad to talk with you about the details. If you will check my profile, you can get my phone number and you can call me at anytime, as I am retired.

RandyA

[friesman]

my suggestion is to take lots of pics as you go, esp of all the different sizes of screws and bolts you take out... it may make things a lot easier at reassembly time.

 

 

 

Brian

[dingy]

Where do I find the video of rebuild? I think I will most likely not tear into the motor side of things. 58k on the clock. So most of the engine should be still in pretty good shape I think its a good gamble to leave it alone and fix the transmission

 

Sent from my moto X

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=84030

 

Gary

[Dano]

When I fixed the tranny on my 84 (LONGGG time ago...) I undercut the 3 side teeth on 5th gear and same on the 6 slots on the second gear, makes those suckers pull in under power rather than trying to stay there with only 3mm of contact the way they built them!

 

Oh yeah, replace that washer and the split-clips on the output shaft of the tranny at the outside of the middle gear! It's easy to see when you pull the middle gear cover off, put you gotta split the gears off the shaft to be able to do it! That's OK, you gotta do that to undercut the gears anyway!

 

Good luck!

[yamagrl]

Explain more about under cutting the gears. Threads?

 

Sent from my moto X

[Peder_y2k]

OMG...Yamagrl........this is a major project taking way too much time and effort...........unless you've got nothing better to do. I suggest you do as I did, sell/trade the ailing bike and replace with a machine that has the fix like the '86 and up years. If you are anything like me (well experienced in mechanical work) you'll be glad you did.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

[yamagrl]

Ye of so little faith

 

Sent from my moto X

Edited May 12, 2014 by yamagrl

[hell yea]

i just replace the hole transmission in my 83 with one from an 89 worked a treat lot cheaper and ezear than repairing tho one thats in there

and there are lots of upgrades to that tranny only thing i kept from the original was the midel gear and shims took it to the deller and he swopt them over for me the gear shafts that is not the bike

the hardest part was getting motor out and back in the frame rest was very easy and strait ford

so take swing arm out and tapet cuver off will help a lot ps theres a hole vidio manuwell i downloaded fro Yamaha Canada on one of my old posts cuvers every thing to do with reparing the ventcher about 9 ours of it lol the secshon that deals with replasing trans is hear Part 08/12_Yamaha Venture 1984-1992 Motorcycle Maintenance http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=85292

Edited May 13, 2014 by hell yea

[hell yea]

ps you will be fine dusent take a lot of skill once that motors on the bench

you will need a strong friend to help and a good tork reanch ps take lots of pics as you go

we like piks lol but hay if i can do it you can to but i stronly suggest replasing the trans with a later one from the wrekers much beter opshon and cheper than bying indervigawell gears for a compromised tranny but thats just the way i did it

like i sead lot of upgrades on the later tyranny better dogs better gear engagement ect and a good second hand compleat tranny from an 86 our later can be got for like 60 - 80 dolars

there a thread on hear dealing with how to tell the diverance by site to

[yamagrl]

Hell Yea

Thanks for the tips

 

I will definitely check eBay for the complete 96-93 transmission.

 

 

Sent from my moto X

Edited May 13, 2014 by yamagrl

[hell yea]

Hell Yea

Thanks for the tips

 

I will definitely check eBay for the complete 96-93 transmission.

 

 

Sent from my moto X

[Flyinfool]

Hell Yea

Thanks for the tips

 

I will definitely check eBay for the complete 96-93 transmission.

 

 

Sent from my moto X

 

Did you mean 86-93?

You would not want to put in nasty 2nd gen parts.....:stickpoke:

[yamagrl]

Yes 86-93. I do not think (hope) there is massive wear. What do you think about under cutting?

 

Sent from my moto X

[Venturous Randy]

Yes 86-93. I do not think (hope) there is massive wear. What do you think about under cutting?

 

Sent from my moto X

 

I did the undercut on mine about 15 years ago and all together I think I spent about $28, and that was on gaskets and oil. The problem was at that time I did not realize that Yamaha had improved the thrust washer by making it harder, so I just flipped mine over and reused it. The local Yamaha shop was clueless and the only thing they wanted to do was sell me a lot of expensive parts. Remember, at this time I did not have internet and just winged it.

The three dogs on the side of the gear were rounded off enough that I had to remove material along the side to bring them back sharp. Then I started at the top and cut more material off as I went to the base of the dog. I did this with a Dremal grinder and a 1/8th inch radius gauge as the width of the dog is right at 1/4 inch. I also used digital calipers for measurements. Now, the hard part begins as I had to make the other two dogs match as close as I could. I then did a matching undercut on the six slots in the matching gear. Now, the next trick was to straighten the forks. You can tell if the forks are bent if you see score marks near the tips of the forks on one side and at the base of the forks on the other side. This from the forks being pushed to one side as they are sticking into the groove of the gear.

I put about 60,000 more miles on the bike without anymore jumping, but as the thrust washer was getting worn again, the bike started to rattle while idling and leaning over on the side stand. At this time, I found an 86 engine that was in a crash and pulled it apart and transferred everything over. I have now put about 65,000 miles on this setup with no problems.

I now have another 1200 engine in the garage with 30,000 miles in it that has a transmission from an 04 Venture that I got from Pinwall. It also will fit, but you will need the entire transmission, including the drum and forks. I think I paid about $50 for the gear sets and when I found out I needed the rest of it, I paid another $20 for the drum and forks. I also have another complete transmission from a 2nd gen Venture that I bought for about $60 from Pinwall because no one else bid on it.

My intention is, with the 2nd gen gear ratios being wider apart and using a V-Max rear, the changeover will have 1st gear being about 10% lower, 2nd being about 5% lower, 3rd and 4th are the same and 5th about 5% higher than the stock setup. In other words, if you are running down the interstate at 3,500rpm's, with the changeover, you would be running about 3,325 rpm's at the same speed and this would be with a noticeably lower 1st gear. I already have the V-Max rear in my bike and am having a blast with it, but I need to get the other engine put in.

Now, this is just a little of an overview with what will be needed to fix your 2nd gear problem. Obviously, if I had known there was a change in the thrust washer, I would have changed it rather than just flipping it over. But keep in mind that if you have a worn thrust washer, you will have some scoring on the matching contact point.

AS far as which option to use, they all have their benefits, but the easiest would be to pick up an 86 to 93 transmission with forks and swap it over. The 2nd gen transmission will work, but if you still used the Venture rear end, I don't think you would be happy with how high geared it would be and this is why a lot of 2nd gen guys go with the V-Max rear end. The 2nd gen transmissions seem to be a lot cheaper as there is no demand for them. the 86 ton 93 are in demand for fixing the 83 to 85's

Hope this is a start and as I have said, if you have any questions give me a call.

RandyA

Edited May 13, 2014 by Venturous Randy

[yamagrl]

Betcha thought I chickened out, Huh?

 

Naw.. my uncle died, so things were kinda put on hold for a couple of weeks. I got back to things this morning.

 

About nine o'clock I removed the bags and rolled Big Red (Secretariat) up onto the lift. This is what he looked like then...

 

 

When I shut the lights off at six-thirty (with about two hours of breaks) this is what he looked like.

 

 

 

Tomorrow I'll roll Big Red off the lift and slide the engine out. Then remove the transmission and middle gear.

 

I have decided to ship the transmission to a Murdoch Racing Enterprises in the Tampa, FL area and let them go over it. They will back cut, magnaflux, check for trueness, etc. Instead of me fooling around with it and trying to figure out which stuff is bad. It might cost me a bit more, but who cares, right? Big Red is "The Man".

 

 

Edited May 26, 2014 by yamagrl
bigger pics

[Dano]

Venturous did a great job describing what it takes in your own garage, just like I did it a few years ago. Once it's undercut, you'll never pop out of a gear again!

[yamagrl]

Hmm... Maybe I'll consider doing it myself after I get it openen up and can determine the damage. I still have to order gaskets, forks etc so its not much of a time delay. Any other advice regarding undercutting?

 

Sent from my moto X

[zoey04]

just a thoght my friend had second gear issue and he just pulled motor out and suck in 1300 he found in good shape bike runs great and a lot less effort. zoey04:whistling:

[djh3]

You know, being you have all the stuff out of the way, might be a good time to check the valves. Just sayin, save you all that time of removing all the plastics again.

[yamagrl]

Just set the valves at SE texas Maint day. Squidley helped me out. One was still a bit tight so Ill have to get a thinner shim for that one. Perfect time. Thanks for the reminder.

 

Also, I am heading to Harbor Freight this morning to get an engine stand. It seems like a good way to hold/flip the engine when working on it.