Flyinfool Posted March 28, 2014 Share #1 Posted March 28, 2014 It is getting down to the wire for a decision. I am thinking of putting in a big (to me anyhow) patio. It will be 10 x 30 feet. It needs to be done as a permeable base. There is not room to pitch it at all for water runoff so it has to be permiable to avoid a lake forming at my back door. To do this will require digging out a hole that is 11 x 31 feet and a foot deep. I do NOT have any access to any power equipment for digging, so it would me and a shovel getting very familiar with each other. Then I have to figure out what to do with 11 yards of dirt that would come out of the hole. The hole then gets filled with 8 yards of gravel that must be leveled and compacted, at least the gravel yard will loan me a compactor. Then another 2 yards of coarse sand, then 8,800 lbs of pavers to cut and place. The one big catch is that the pavers I want to use are on sale for 55% off until Saturday night. With out the sale price it will not fit in the budget. So I have until 8:00 Saturday night to decide. This sounds like a major undertaking to dig this hole and get rid of the dirt. I am not sure if I am up to it physically or mentally. I can see this taking most of the summer to complete. Once it is started the bike is stranded until it is done. Hiring a contractor to do this is way out of the budget. For all of the materials, delivery charges and rentals it will cost about $1200, the cheapest contractor was $10,000. Has anyone ever done a project like this? Got any words of wisdom? Maybe I need to have a Patio Hole Party? Or should I call it a free exercise party? I can supply shovels and food and drinks and Rum Balls ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bongobobny Posted March 28, 2014 Share #2 Posted March 28, 2014 Yes, I have done a couple of patios, and they really aren't that difficult. The hardest part is getting the area level and having plenty of drainage under them. It may seem like a lot of work, and it is, but once you get going it goes fast. The dirt you excavate can be used to level off your lawn or make an elevated garden if it is good enough quality. Before you actually set down the pavers but after the land is leveled out and pounded down (rent the machine to do this) put down weed blocking paper, the porous type, to prevent vegetation from growing between the cracks... You may very well find you can get it done in a weekend or two! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairiehammer Posted March 28, 2014 Share #3 Posted March 28, 2014 Has anyone ever done a project like this? Yes. Got any words of wisdom? No. Got any young and able neighbors, nephews, friends? Beer MIGHT be less expensive than a mini excavator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry1951 Posted March 28, 2014 Share #4 Posted March 28, 2014 Go to your local "stuff rental" store and see about renting one of the small backyard size backhoes or excavators. They are, around here, less than $200./day, and you can finish it in one day and move the excess where you want it. They are not hard to operate and will not tear your yard up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BratmanXj Posted March 28, 2014 Share #5 Posted March 28, 2014 Got any young and able neighbors, nephews, friends? Beer MIGHT be less expensive than a mini excavator. As with any project with my friends...Beer & Burgers/Pizza/Junk Food is the great gathering tool. Once mixed & poured a patio on 6:00am on a Sunday morning because the GF cooked breakfast for us with Jamison Syrup for the waffles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share #6 Posted March 28, 2014 OUCH! I checked out a couple of rental places for a bobcat or mini excavator. They all want $410 to $450 for a one day rental that allows up to 8 hours run time. When I described the project they all recommended a bobcat with a toothed blade on the bucket. Bobcat and excavator are the same price. Some required either their operator at $50 per hr or a cert that I am a qualified operator. I am not, never played with one, yet. But then the cat might just be fun....... And then IF I plan everything right, I can use the cat to spread the gravel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerCPO Posted March 28, 2014 Share #7 Posted March 28, 2014 Have you checked into having a concrete pad poured for the patio? You'll still have to move some dirt outta the way BUT you'll never have to worry about loose pavers or weeds coming up. Boomer....who sez when yer drunk its easier to walk on flat concrete than those bumpy pavers..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairiehammer Posted March 28, 2014 Share #8 Posted March 28, 2014 Have you checked into having a concrete pad poured for the patio? You'll still have to move some dirt outta the way BUT you'll never have to worry about loose pavers or weeds coming up. Boomer....who sez when yer drunk its easier to walk on flat concrete than those bumpy pavers..... Jeff, although you said a slab was not in the cards because it had to be permeable, Boomer is correct about a slab being less labor. The excavation would still be required though. Investigate a permeable (AKA Pervious ) concrete slab. Yes, there is such a thing. The substrate would also have to be permeable (pea gravel, or such). http://www.srmconcrete.com/images/pervious-photo2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share #9 Posted March 28, 2014 Dang, Permeable concrete is not recommended for cold climates with freeze thaw cycles. And I prefer the look of the pavers over concrete. I am planning to use flagstone pavers to have that random size and shape of stones look. I can only afford one project for the house this year. The other option is to knock down the chimney to regain the 4 square feet on each of the 4 floors it goes thru. That will also be a major project. I think I am starting to lean toward doing the chimney instead of the patio. I guess I will know for sure by Sat night..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert2006 Posted March 28, 2014 Share #10 Posted March 28, 2014 Should invite a bunch of members for a M&G to do the digging..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRider Posted March 28, 2014 Share #11 Posted March 28, 2014 Jeff, Why don't you spend your time and money building a garage with a heater. Then you can wrench on your bike all winter (unless you get a 2nd Gen - then you won't need to). RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share #12 Posted March 28, 2014 Jeff, Why don't you spend your time and money building a garage with a heater. Then you can wrench on your bike all winter (unless you get a 2nd Gen - then you won't need to). RR Stupid city will not let me build a garage on my lot. But they did TRY to add one to my property taxes..... Don't get me started on that one..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakester Posted March 28, 2014 Share #13 Posted March 28, 2014 What about using raised forms and put the gravel above grade. With a weed block fabric, vents in the forms(pvc pipe) will allow standing water to flow and dissipate. no soil to remove, less labor, more riding time. Just thinking out loud. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairiehammer Posted March 28, 2014 Share #14 Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Dang, Permeable concrete is not recommended for cold climates with freeze thaw cycles. That is not exactly true. Been done with good results in a freeze/thaw environment. It is all about water management. Good substrate drainage management. Air entrained paste. I will agree that pavers look better, but man! a lot more work. You could consider stamped concrete with a desirable pattern, too. Check out this page: http://www.cement.org/for-concrete-books-learning/materials-applications/pervious-concrete/pervious-concrete-and-freeze-thaw Edited March 28, 2014 by Prairiehammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyp61 Posted March 29, 2014 Share #15 Posted March 29, 2014 It is getting down to the wire for a decision. I am thinking of putting in a big (to me anyhow) patio. It will be 10 x 30 feet. It needs to be done as a permeable base. There is not room to pitch it at all for water runoff so it has to be permiable to avoid a lake forming at my back door. To do this will require digging out a hole that is 11 x 31 feet and a foot deep. I do NOT have any access to any power equipment for digging, so it would me and a shovel getting very familiar with each other. Then I have to figure out what to do with 11 yards of dirt that would come out of the hole. The hole then gets filled with 8 yards of gravel that must be leveled and compacted, at least the gravel yard will loan me a compactor. Then another 2 yards of coarse sand, then 8,800 lbs of pavers to cut and place. The one big catch is that the pavers I want to use are on sale for 55% off until Saturday night. With out the sale price it will not fit in the budget. So I have until 8:00 Saturday night to decide. This sounds like a major undertaking to dig this hole and get rid of the dirt. I am not sure if I am up to it physically or mentally. I can see this taking most of the summer to complete. Once it is started the bike is stranded until it is done. Hiring a contractor to do this is way out of the budget. For all of the materials, delivery charges and rentals it will cost about $1200, the cheapest contractor was $10,000. Has anyone ever done a project like this? Got any words of wisdom? Maybe I need to have a Patio Hole Party? Or should I call it a free exercise party? I can supply shovels and food and drinks and Rum Balls ....... Flyinfool, Check into"Lowes" for a complete shed /garage, they will come to your house and build it on your property, and its not permentally installed,so the city may not have issues, but check first. They put up mine, a 10 x 16 for $2600.00 thats everything including paint, shingled roof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coop Posted March 29, 2014 Share #16 Posted March 29, 2014 I guess there are no day laborers near you? A town or two away we have an area where a lot of day laborers hang out. They get 100.00 a day. Most of them are Mexicans and I gota tell ya...these guys are strong and work hard. They don't stop all day. I had 10 yards of top fill delivered and 2 guys knocked it out in 6 hours...shovels and wheelbarrows. Even swept the driveway. That was 200.00 well spent in my eyes. Good luck with your patio. Coop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lsutley Posted March 29, 2014 Share #17 Posted March 29, 2014 Jeff, A few of questions: Is there sufficient subsoil drainage to move the water away from the patio? Is there enough slope away from the patio area to pipe the accumulated water from the stone base? Do you have a basement? If so will the patio be against the exterior basement wall? No mater the preparation, if there is no way to effectively drain the water from beneath the pavers there will be problems if you have below freezing temperatures. Driveway matting or other semipermeable membrane between the stone and sand will help keep the sand in place. Poly sand can be used to fill in between the pavers as a finishing step. The poly sand will harden a bit to keep the sand from coming up and out from between the pavers. It will also prevent the random seeds from finding a suitable home to sprout. My standard practice is to mix some Portland with the sand to firm up the substrate before laying the pavers. Wet the sand mix and wait until the next day to lay. Not enough for a hard mix, just enough to make the sand somewhat more cohesive under foot. The pavers are then laid using a little additional sand for leveling. I might have considered such a job when I was 30 but I have learned since to be more selective when sacrificing my back. A 10 X 30 area one foot deep will grow exponentially with every shovel full of dirt removed. Whatever you decide, good luck with the project!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainJoe Posted March 29, 2014 Share #18 Posted March 29, 2014 A pressure treated deck could be done in one weekend and depending on your skill, look just as good if not better... IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylvester Posted March 29, 2014 Share #19 Posted March 29, 2014 A pressure treated deck could be done in one weekend and depending on your skill, look just as good if not better... IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share #20 Posted March 30, 2014 Well I chickened out. I decided that the patio will have to wait for next spring. I started knocking down the chimney today. So far I have not needed any tool other than my bare hands to take the bricks apart. It really is ready to fall down. If I wait till next year for the patio I will plan to be able to rent a bobcat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragtop69gs Posted March 30, 2014 Share #21 Posted March 30, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share #22 Posted March 31, 2014 Well all of the chimney that was in the attic is now a pile of bricks in the driveway. Dang that is a lot of work, Carrying the bricks from the attic, down a stepladder, down 2 flights of stairs, and across the yard. To get the bricks out of the attic I had to fill a 6 gallon bucket with about 50 lbs of bricks and then while holding the bucket over my head climb down the stepladder...... OK plan 2.5. Now that I have this pile of 100+ year old bricks growing in the back yard. I had this thought, I'll bet that these bricks will make adequate pavers, well at least temporary ones till I get around to doing it rite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerCPO Posted March 31, 2014 Share #23 Posted March 31, 2014 Those bricks would make a nice Bar B Q Pit as well.... Boomer....who sez Bar B Q wins out over pavers any old day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyinfool Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share #24 Posted March 31, 2014 Those bricks would make a nice Bar B Q Pit as well.... Boomer....who sez Bar B Q wins out over pavers any old day... Ya want some? Come and get um!!! I'll help ya load them into your vehicle. Or you could build a jail for some pygmies ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerCPO Posted March 31, 2014 Share #25 Posted March 31, 2014 Ya want some? Come and get um!!! I'll help ya load them into your vehicle. Or you could build a jail for some pygmies ....... Actually I have plans for an outdoor Pizza Oven and bricks are prolly what I will use....but I sure as h$ll ain't going all de way to Wisconsin to get bricks... Boomer....who sez the jail ain't been built that will hold pygmies fer very long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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