bongobobny Posted March 4, 2008 #1 Posted March 4, 2008 Rear master cylander for '86 up Venture. I am updating my braking system in the front and found out from Rick at Buckeye that the master cylanders are larger for the 4 piston calipers. I have the front master cylander but not a rear one. So if anyone has an extra they want to part with let me know...
86er Posted March 5, 2008 #2 Posted March 5, 2008 I wish I could help you Bob! I even did a search on eBay and only came up with an "83 XVZ1200 Venture Master Cylinder Front" and a "98-07 Grand Prix Impala Venture Master Cylinder" Don't reckon either of those will help you!
Cutty Posted March 5, 2008 #3 Posted March 5, 2008 Changing to all braided lines and delinking the brakes should help. In the front, running two lines from the master cyl. There are different brake pad material to choose from, depending on how you want the braking to be. Having floor boards on will limit your rear wheel adjustments and braking.
Marcarl Posted March 5, 2008 #4 Posted March 5, 2008 I wish I could help you Bob! I even did a search on eBay and only came up with an "83 XVZ1200 Venture Master Cylinder Front" and a "98-07 Grand Prix Impala Venture Master Cylinder" Don't reckon either of those will help you! I know Bob's problem, and the one for the Impala might suit him better. When you have more to stop, don't you need a bigger cylinder? or it may be cheaper to get a smaller cylinder on the seat???????
Condor Posted March 5, 2008 #5 Posted March 5, 2008 The 1stGen pickin's have been a little slim on Ebay lately due to the time of the year....and probably the economy... Things will pick up as we get closer to riding season. Most sellers get disgruntled spending money on listing fees and not getting any results. If I had an extra Bob it would be yours...
bongobobny Posted March 5, 2008 Author #6 Posted March 5, 2008 Yah, I haven't seen any on ebay either, and that's why I started this thread. No huge rush as the actual conversion probably won't happen until April. I have to rebuild front shocks and install progressive springs, and rebuild front calipers and master cylander as well, so when I go to do it, it should be a 1 afternoon project, take off the old and bolt on the new...
Cdnlouie Posted March 7, 2008 #7 Posted March 7, 2008 I'm upgrading my 85 as well some time in the future. I got the forks, brakes and rotors, but intend to use the same master cylinder. I don't think it will make a big difference. The whole braking is bound to be better or certainly no worst, I would try the original until you can get one. Cdnl
bongobobny Posted March 8, 2008 Author #8 Posted March 8, 2008 No, you need the bigger master cylanders as the calipers hold a lot more fluid. The fluid has to come from somewhere, and the smaller early 1st gen masters don't have it...
Condor Posted March 8, 2008 #9 Posted March 8, 2008 No, you need the bigger master cylanders as the calipers hold a lot more fluid. The fluid has to come from somewhere, and the smaller early 1st gen masters don't have it... Bob, I think Cecil is refering to the later 1stGen 100mm calipers like you're planning to do, and I don't think he'll have any problem using the 85 masters with the 86-93 calipers.....
Squeeze Posted March 8, 2008 #10 Posted March 8, 2008 Bob, the Amount of Fluids the Caliper holds is only in Question when filling the System. Of course, once the Pads are nearly used up, the Chances of an early empty Reservoir are given, but then you just refill it with some Fluid and top of the Level. No Problem as long as you don't forget to take some Fluid out prior to back up the Pistons on the Pad Replacement. Your only real Concern should be the Piston Diameter. If the early M/B is smaller than the later, then you have a Problem. If the Diameters are the same or nearby, no Problem.
Neil86 Posted March 8, 2008 #11 Posted March 8, 2008 The issue is the 83-85 use a 2 piston caliper, while the 86-93 use the 4 piston caliper. 83-85 uses one model master cylinder, 86-93 another model. (This applies to both masters, front and rear). The main problem isn't the reservoir, its the volume the master cylinder displaces when you apply the brakes. If the earlier master can't displace enough fluid you don't get full braking pressure to the pads since its going to move 8 pistons now instead of 4 the older calipers housed.
Squeeze Posted March 8, 2008 #12 Posted March 8, 2008 The issue is the 83-85 use a 2 piston caliper, while the 86-93 use the 4 piston caliper. 83-85 uses one model master cylinder, 86-93 another model. (This applies to both masters, front and rear). The main problem isn't the reservoir, its the volume the master cylinder displaces when you apply the brakes. If the earlier master can't displace enough fluid you don't get full braking pressure to the pads since its going to move 8 pistons now instead of 4 the older calipers housed. Yeah, you're right. It's the Volume which moves the Pistons and the Pads until they get stopped on the Brake Rotors. Then, real Pressure builds up and moves the Pistons further. But you know, Volume is a Product and since the Leverage of both M/C seems to be the same, it depends on the Piston Diameter. But Times change and so do technical Products. Best Example for this are the YZF-R1 Calipers, they are also 4 Piston Calipers, but designed to work with a 14mm Master cylinder instead of the 5/8" M/C all the previous Brakes used also with their 4 Piston Calipers. If you mount these Calipers onto a 5/8 Master cylinder it will work. But Chances are that it works that fast and hard and you wouldn't like it. I've heard different Quotes about this and as long as nobody can say 'been there, done that' and it works or works not, we will have to guess forever. So, like i said before, it might work without changing the M/C. Chances are fifty/fifty.
bongobobny Posted March 8, 2008 Author #13 Posted March 8, 2008 Thanks, Neil, that's what I meant to say. The '86 up has a larger pistron thereby displacing more fluid, thereby delivering more volume for the same distance of hand grip movement. The piston area of the 4 piston calipers is larger, therefore you need more volume to produce the same distance of travel. Sooo, unless you want to squeeze your handlebar grip to the maximum and hope you have enough meat left on your pads, you had best install the newer master cylanders...
Squeeze Posted March 8, 2008 #14 Posted March 8, 2008 Now i'm confused. First you looked for a rear Master cylinder. Now you're talking about pulling the Lever to the Handlebars ? A Lot of Guys update their Vmax on the rear. They undo the stock 2-Piston Caliper, mount a special made Adapter and mount a 4 Piston Caliper coming from the front of the Bike(same as later 1Gen) or from a Set of R1/R6 Calipers. While these Calipers are using different Piston Diameter on the original Position both work very well on the stock 14mm rear M/C of the Vmax. I've updated my '93 1Gen with R1 Calipers in front and rear, delinked the Brakes and feel very good with the Conversion. My Bike has a the stock 14mm M/C on the Handlebar.
bongobobny Posted March 8, 2008 Author #15 Posted March 8, 2008 I already have the front, need the rear. I just used the front as an example, the rear brake pedal would be the same idea. Sorry for confusing you, Squeeze... At this time Im not interested in delinkng as I sort of like the idea of the front and rear being linked. The main idea is to improve the braking of my '84 as the early 1st gen were very anemic as far as braking. Why do you think that Yamaha changed them in the first place???
Squeeze Posted March 8, 2008 #16 Posted March 8, 2008 I already have the front, need the rear. I just used the front as an example, the rear brake pedal would be the same idea. Sorry for confusing you, Squeeze... At this time Im not interested in delinkng as I sort of like the idea of the front and rear being linked. The main idea is to improve the braking of my '84 as the early 1st gen were very anemic as far as braking. Why do you think that Yamaha changed them in the first place??? No Problem Bob, i just didn't understand the Context in first Place. Why they changed the Brakes ?? Because they ARE poor and not up the standard even in these Days. I experienced these Hesitators(no Pun intended) on a Friends FJ1200, i know what we're talking about. Man, this FJ has 140 hp, but no Way to stop them adequate. If i were you, i would not give the rear M/C much of a Thought. Mount the 4 Pot Calipers and see what's happening. I wouldn't be astonished if you will find it working just fine.
Condor Posted March 8, 2008 #17 Posted March 8, 2008 I didn't know there was a difference between the 83-85 and 86-93 masters. Learn something new everyday.... I thought that becasue the pistons on the 86-93 front calipers were smaller, that the masters were the same, and that the better braking came from more pad contact with the rotor. Now I've gotta go figure out which spares I have??? I wonder if the braking could be improved by putting 86-93 masters on a 83-85??
Squeeze Posted March 8, 2008 #18 Posted March 8, 2008 I did check the IPC and i don't believe the rear M/C's are much different. Even though the Parts number of the Repair set are different in Model and superseded Part.
bongobobny Posted March 8, 2008 Author #19 Posted March 8, 2008 I didn't know there was a difference between the 83-85 and 86-93 masters. Learn something new everyday.... I thought that becasue the pistons on the 86-93 front calipers were smaller, that the masters were the same, and that the better braking came from more pad contact with the rotor. Now I've gotta go figure out which spares I have??? I wonder if the braking could be improved by putting 86-93 masters on a 83-85?? No, it won't. The slave cylanders will only take the volume they need. Perhaps you may notice a slight improvement with increased pressure but what it may mean is that they wil lock up easier! The best way to improve the early brakes without switching over is to go to stainless steel lines as they won't expand, causing loss of available pressure to the calipers. One other advantage of the newer setup is that the anti dive does not use hydraulics from the brakes, but rather an electric signal from the brake lights to trigger a servo to provide the anti dive. I'm finally going to make use of that front end setup you sold me a year ago or so!!
bongobobny Posted March 8, 2008 Author #20 Posted March 8, 2008 By the way, I just purchased a rear master off of ebay a few minutes ago. Yes, the piston in those is larger as well. Squeeze, most likely, if you delink the front and rear, the available volume is greater to the rear and that's why the 4 piston ones seem to work ok with that mod, I would assume...
Squeeze Posted March 8, 2008 #21 Posted March 8, 2008 By the way, I just purchased a rear master off of ebay a few minutes ago. Yes, the piston in those is larger as well. Squeeze, most likely, if you delink the front and rear, the available volume is greater to the rear and that's why the 4 piston ones seem to work ok with that mod, I would assume... Bob, the Vmaxxes i used for Example, haven't had linked Brakes.
Condor Posted March 8, 2008 #22 Posted March 8, 2008 I just looked up the part numbers for the rebuild kits and the 83 took 23LW0041-00-00 and the 91 took 4H7-W0041-50-00. Looks to be the same rebuild kits, but I don't know for sure because I can't locate the thread explaining how to read a part number. Thought I had saved it...?? Old age I guess...
Neil86 Posted March 8, 2008 #23 Posted March 8, 2008 I had looked up the master cylinder part numbers before I first posted, and they are different numbers, and a major price difference. As for the kits.... 1986 CYL KIT,MASTER (rear) 4W1-W0041-00-00 1 $32.34 (same for 1993, BTW) 83 CYL KIT,MASTER (rear) 26H-W0041-50-00 1 $40.92 So I would say they are different parts. Regarding part numbers.....I have found parts on 2nd gens with the identical part number to 1983 first gens (even with the 26H prefix).
Condor Posted March 9, 2008 #24 Posted March 9, 2008 I have found parts on 2nd gens with the identical part number to 1983 first gens (even with the 26H prefix). It's still a little fuzzy, but it's starting to come back to me. The 26H is the code they use to designate the first model the part apeared on. The 26H code is used for the XVZ1200. The difference in pricing between the 83-85 front caliper rebuild kits and the 86-93 front rebuilds is that the later model uses four seals instead of the two on the early units. The rear master cylindar rebuild kits are the same throughout the VR run from 83-93. They never changed the rear master.
Neil86 Posted March 9, 2008 #25 Posted March 9, 2008 1986 CYL KIT,MASTER (rear) 4W1-W0041-00-00 1 $32.34 (same for 1993, BTW) 83 CYL KIT,MASTER (rear) 26H-W0041-50-00 1 $40.92 Two different prices
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