R6 & R1 Front Calipers

[Rick Butler]

Hey guys,

 

My friend BJ Melin just posted the following on the MTA forum, so I thought I would post it here to get some feedback from you all:

 

""Hey guys I hate the front brakes on the 2nd gen Venture after a long trip my right hand is sore and worn out from gripping the lever so hard.

 

I have bought a set of R6, 4 piston brake calipers and intend to get them installed the next time I have a decent day to work on the bike. I don't have an enclosed garage yet, so I have to wait for good weather.

It looks like they will mount differently from the RSV 2 piston calipers. Rick Butler has mounted a pair of 4 piston calipers from the 1st gen on his Venture. Has anyone else tried the R6 calipers and if so how did they work out?"

 

From what I have observed, the 2004 and earlier R6 and 2003 and earlier R1 calipers should be a clean bolt-up. Since many of these bikes seem to find their way to salvage, this might be a good option for someone wanting to get better front brakes on their RSV.

 

Rick

[Squidley]

Thats good info to have Rick, I know that I wasn't real impressed with the front brakes on the G2. Seems the front are a weak as the back is agressive:confused24:

[Squeeze]

If the Mounting Points on the Forks is 100mm Distance they fit Bolt on.

Some Folks here have that on their 1Gen.

 

 

Nice Calipers and work great. I recommend EBC HH Brake Pads

 

 

One Thing on the Downside, these Calipers normally work with a 14mm Piston in the Mastecylinder.

 

To my Knowledge the 2Gen M/C are 5/8 Inch and have a different Leverage. So in most Cases the Owner finds the Brakes very sensitive with this M/C. I don't know the Piston Size on these floating Calipers M/C, but if they are same Size you may back up the Adjuster Bolt inside the Lever for about 3 to 5 mm and find it either good working or not fine enough.

 

I have had these Calipers on my Max, first with the stock 5/8 M/C and did find it not satisfying(digital braking Excitement even with Adjuster Bolt backed up). I mounted a M/C from a earlier FJR1300 which is designed to fit these Calipers. But the FJR 1300 has 7/8 Inch Handlebars which do not fit ón the 2Gen 1 Inchers.

[V7Goose]

I don't have anything technical to add about making the switch - I have never even looked at it. I find the front brakes on both my RSVs to be just fine (and I use the front brake as my primary brake - the rear gets very little use). Even after 1000+ mile days, of which I have done several on both bikes, I have never even had a twinge of discomfort from using the front brake. Maybe it is just the size of my hands?

Goose

[pegscraper]

Sounds like an interesting idea. Anything to get more action out of these front brakes would be good. I'm pretty unimpressed with them.

 

I didn't know you had four piston 1st gen calipers on your bike, Rick. How do you like those? Do they give you more stopping power? What does it take to mount them?

 

What is the MTA forum?

[Rick Butler]

Yeah Lynn,

 

That was my first modification when I finally realized that the brakes on the RSV were completely backwards when you need 70% of your stopping power on the front brakes. I had a friend with a couple of 1st gen Venture parts bike who sent me a set of front 4 piston calipers, which mounted up just perfect. With these 4 piston calipers I have front brakes from H?ll and you don't need big hands like Goose to stop this bike.

 

But, later I noticed that Yamaha changed the front calipers on the 2004 Road Star from our 2 piston calipers to 4 piston calipers that I first noticed on the Road Star Warrior, where it was built with a R1 front end. It turned out that these calipers were also used on the early R6 and R1s, which meant there was another source for 4-piston calipers for those of us who wanted more stopping power up front.

 

Oh, and the MTA is the Motorcycle Touring Association (fna the Venture Touring Society until Yamaha dropped the Venture in 94) which is an all brand, all bikes association that many of us came from and still support.

 

I'd still like to hear from anyone who has tried the R6 front calipers,

 

Rick

[pegscraper]

I don't find discomfort from using the front brakes. They just don't seem to be able to do what I thought they ought to. If the R6 calipers are the same thing as yours, they ought to feel the same then, no? I recall reading where some V Max owners will use the R6 or R1 front calipers, but I missed the point of it and didn't pay any attention to the whys or how tos. Now I guess I know. I'll have to go back and see what they were saying. So Y had 4 piston calipers on the 1st gens and then gave us only 2 piston units? Why would they downgrade the brake system like that? Why would they not give us the best brakes they could make? Buncha bozos. I believe I'll be looking for some different front calipers.

[Squeeze]

Lynn, the R1 Calpers are one Piece casted. The 1Gen 4-Piston Calipers are made of two Pieces which are bolted together. These Bolts the weakest Point in the Scenario.

 

 

Why they downgraded the Calipers ?? Simple Answer, Costs.

 

You 'Cruiser Guys' do not need outstanding Brake Performance. Just a little bit to slow down when leaving the Freeway. At least Yammi may think so.

 

On the other Side, these R1 Calipers have been very expensive in Production in first Place. They first hit the Market on the YZF 1000 Thunderace. At that Time they have had a Tubing outside the Caliper to connect left and right Side of each Caliper. This was corrected with the Appearance of the first YZF-R1 in 1998.

 

Now they put them on almost every Bike above 70 hp they sell. The Price Reduction might be significant enough to standardise these Calipers.

[pegscraper]

Yes, but the cruisers are also the heaviest bikes. They ought to get brakes to match the needs of the bike. Cost is probably what it was.

 

So the only difference is the one piece or two piece casting style then? The mounting bolt spacing is the same and both styles will bolt right up?

[Squeeze]

Yes, but the cruisers are also the heaviest bikes. They ought to get brakes to match the needs of the bike. Cost is probably what it was.

 

So the only difference is the one piece or two piece casting style then? The mounting bolt spacing is the same and both styles will bolt right up?

 

You're right about the Weight and i would bet on Costs .. :)

 

 

The main Difference is the casting Style. But they are really different Beasts. The 1Gen Calipers weight a ton versus the R1.

 

I had them on my Max, and it was big improvement. I did a Tour through the Alps, when going downhill the Brakes did a tremendous Job and way better than the stock Calipers. When the Brakes are hot, the Bolts allow the two Halves be separated a Bit by the hydraulic Force on the old style Calipers. This cannot happen on the R1 Calipers, even when they are glowing hot, just before the Brake fluid goes South. These Brakes are respected to the utmost best Performance and Sensitivity in the whole Superbike World.

 

Please look out for the blue Star Calipers, the later ones, which are golden or silver have Aluminum Pistons. The blue Stars have Steel Pistons should be very easy and cheap to get. Here in Germany a Pair used Calipers go on EBay for the Price of the Repair Sets of one Caliper at Yamaha. Just make sure you get all Pieces on the Deal, there should be one Pin, two Cotter Pins and the metal Piece on Top of the Pads to each Caliper.

 

I'm not 100 Percent sure about they will fit Bolt on to your Bike. If the mounting Distance of your Calipers is 100 mm, they fit without a Doubt.

 

There is not so much Money to loose, check the Bolt Distance, if it's 100 mm, go buy some Calipers, mount and bleed them, set back the Adjuster in the Lever and go for a test ride. If you like it, fine, if not, you can resell the Calipers without a huge Loss.

 

If you like to take a look at your Master cylinder, on the Brake you will find a Number casted in the Area where the Banjo Bolt goes in and looking from underneath. This is the Piston Size of the M/C. This should read "5/8" or "14". Meaning this is a 5/8 Inch or 14mm Piston. The Calipers are designed to work with a 14mm M/C but i know some Guys who actually like their 5/8 standard Vmax M/C. I find it too touchy for me and went for a 14mm FJR1300 M/C. The FJR since 2005 has a 16mm M/C, but they changed the Leverage and kept the Lever itself unchanged.

[CrazyHorse]

I use R6 calipers on my 1st Gen. R6 pistons are a different size one is smaller then the other. It's my understanding the smaller piston pushes out slightly faster then the bigger one balancing the wear on the pads. I also use the HH pads.

[pegscraper]

Well Rick,

 

I think I'll be looking for a set of these R1/R6 calipers to install. Better braking sure sounds like a good thing. Whenever I practice a quick stop, my current brakes just don't inspire much confidence. I'll let you know how it turns out. It might be a bit though, as riding season isn't here yet. But I'm seeing light at the end of that long dark tunnel.

[Rick Butler]

Lynn,

 

Just make sure that you take note of the year (see my 1st post) of the R1 & R6 calipers, because in the more recent years they both went to a completely different bolt configuration.

 

Rick

[Squeeze]

Lynn,

 

Just make sure that you take note of the year (see my 1st post) of the R1 & R6 calipers, because in the more recent years they both went to a completely different bolt configuration.

 

Rick

 

Rick, these later Calipers you're refering to, are radial mounted. You can see the Difference when seeing them. They work even better as standard mounted, but the Forks need a complete different Setup to take them.

[Rick Butler]

Yeah Squeeze,

 

They are the ones that I'm refering to that even the R6 went to in 2005, at least here in America. I guess this is why Yamaha started putting this earlier 4-piston style calipers on the Road Star in 2004, to use up the excess?

 

Rick

[Squeeze]

Yeah Squeeze,

 

They are the ones that I'm refering to that even the R6 went to in 2005, at least here in America. I guess this is why Yamaha started putting this earlier 4-piston style calipers on the Road Star in 2004, to use up the excess?

 

Rick

 

You can be sure, there's not Excess, they mount them on any Bike above 70 hp in their whole Product Range. At least here in Europe.

 

The Radials are not that much needed on our heavy Bikes, but it really gives a better Feeling on the Brake Lever. Even better when you have a radial Mastercylinder to feed them.

[pegscraper]

Well, here they are. They bolt right in and fit like they were made for it. They're bled and ready to test out. But it's raining pretty good here today, so I'm staying in. Right off, from what little I can tell in the garage, they feel pretty promising. The first pic is my original calipers, which turned out to be a four piston bolt together type, where I believe the RSVs have two piston calipers. The second pic is the R1/R6 calipers. My chrome caliper covers will need a bit of a tweak to fit around the brake hose now, so I'll wait to see what I think of these before doing that. At the very least, one would want to put the small chrome covers like what is on my original calipers onto the R1/R6 calipers to hide the colored star pieces. Now I'm anxious to get out and see what happens. Freakin' rain. We don't need any more. Our yard is so sopping wet that the ground squishes like a sponge when I walk through it.

[pegscraper]

Well, here's the report on the R1/R6 calipers. I had installed them a couple weeks ago, and put some riding time on them. They seemed adequate. I could feel that they operated differently, but I can't say they felt like any real improvement. The difference I was feeling was that the brakes would engage sooner in the lever travel. It took a lot of hand effort to operate them, which is not an issue for me. But they just didn't feel like they were stopping me any better. I was less than excited. I was beginning to think I was chasing ghosts, that I was simply expecting too much out of an 800 lb. bike.

 

Squeeze had said here that the R1/R6 calipers were designed to be used with a 14mm master cylinder, where our bikes have a 5/8" master cylinder stock (real close to 16mm). What that means is that with our bigger diameter master cylinder, the caliper pistons will move farther for a given amount of master cylinder piston (or brake lever) travel. To say it another way, it means that the mechanical advantage of the master cylinder over the caliper pistons is reduced.

 

Squeeze suggested that I get the 14mm master cylinder with which these calipers were designed to be used and give that a try. With that, the master cylinder will travel farther for a given amount of caliper piston travel, and the mechanical advantage at the brake lever will be increased. So I got one and got it installed today, and went for a ride. MAMMA MIA HOLY MOTHER OF MOSES what a set of brakes! Good gravy! I was beginning to think it wasn't possible for any brakes at all to have this kind of stopping power on a bike this heavy. I did a number of quick stops, and as I learned the new feel of these brakes, I did a few from 60 mph where I braked all the way down to a dead stop. I heard creaks and groans from stress in the front end of this bike I've never heard before. I was half afraid I was going to wind up standing on the front tire. Even one tiny pebble under the front tire at that point probably would have spelled major disaster.

 

The real test now would be to put some time on these brakes, and then go back to the stock setup and see if I thought the braking power dropped. One can often be convinced that they see whatever result it is that they want to see in a case like this. I may or may not do that, but I'll put some time on these first to really get used to them. I really don't think I'm off base though. This is too great of a difference to be imagining things.

 

Needless to say, I'd recommend this modification to anyone who wishes they had more stopping power out of their front brakes. It turns out that my bike already had four piston front calipers. In fact, I learned that they are the same thing as V Max front calipers. V Max owners have been doing this R1/R6 front caliper swap for quite a while now. Second gen RSVs and RSTDs have only two piston front brake calipers. I can't think that they're even as good as what I had.

 

I used R1/R6 calipers on mine. Those anodized colored aluminum bore plugs don't really look right on our bikes. That's a sportbike look. I already had big chrome caliper covers on mine, which will require a little tweak to clear the new hose location and I will put them back on. At the very least one would want to put the small calipers covers on, which are still available. A slightly better way to go would be to use the calipers from newer Roadstars or Roadliners or Stratoliners or even Raiders. Some Warrior calipers may work, but the newest model of Warrior has gone to a different style of caliper. All these calipers from these models already have chrome bore plugs in them, and some of them have the whole caliper chromed. These wouldn't need any covers at all. Some of them have black bodies and some are natural aluminum color. The 'Liners and Raiders have a different style of bore plug than the Roadstars. It's all just a difference in looks. They're all four piston calipers with 100mm mounting bolt spacing. Any of them would work here. Just make sure to get ones that have the same basic mounting bolt and body configuration. If they look like they will fit, they will. There is a newer style of caliper filtering into Y's bikes that will not fit, but when you look at them, it is obvious that they are a different style. I'm not going to take the time to figure out all the years and models which will have the calipers that we need. Just make sure to match up a similar body style.

 

As far as the 14mm master cylinders go, the Roadstars' and Warriors' master cylinders are identical to ours in looks, except that they have the different piston diameter - at least the ones with this style of caliper do. The piston diameter is cast right into the back of the reservoir next to the fluid inspection window, where you can see it from the seat. It will be either 14 or 5/8, so you can tell what you're looking at even if the thing is off of the bike. There are brushed aluminum with a clear finish units available, and the midnights have chromed units, so pick whatever matches your bike. The Raiders' and 'Liners' master cylinders have a different style to them and wouldn't match the looks of our bikes.

 

The only other minor issue is that because of the new brake hose mounting location on these calipers, now the existing brake hoses are a shade too long, and require a twist in them to mount which makes them buckle out a little bit. If it doesn't bother you, then they're fine. But hoses from a Roadstar with these calipers would probably fit against the bike a little better. Now might be a good time to go to braided hoses.

 

The big chrome caliper covers from Show Chrome made to fit our bikes might not fit now with these calipers, because of the new brake hose mounting location. But I'd bet that the model designed to fit the Roadstars that have these calipers would now fit.

 

Now let's see some of the rest of you do this and hear reports from someone else. There's no substitute for good brakes. Just do it.

[CrazyHorse]

New Harleys have excellant stopping power compared to a 1st Gen cant speak for a 2nd Gen.

[yamahale]

Could it be you swapped M/C sizes while typing? The 87 VR has a 14mm master for a single caliper, and the RSV have a 5/8"(16mm) for dual, so we need a 5/8 when de-linking right?

[Semi-retired]

Why would they not give us the best brakes they could make? Buncha bozos. I believe I'll be looking for some different front calipers.

 

You funny guy!!

 

Even Porsche and BMW never give you "the best...ANYTHING they could make", why would Yamaha??

 

Surely you jest. OR, back then, you were just a very extreme "fanboy"....a term which I don't think was even invented, back when you originally posted this. :-)