SilvrT Posted March 2, 2008 Share #1 Posted March 2, 2008 Been trying to find info about the middle gear and output shaft. Specifically ... how to check free play or gear lash ... can shims be installed... can it be done with engine still in the bike...etc? I know I've read before some info about this but can't seem to find specifically what I want by searching. Could someone point me to some tech info about this or maybe you can walk me through the process... got some pics? I have the service manual but all the info there seems to be based on the engine being out of the bike and with the cases split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bigin Posted March 2, 2008 Share #2 Posted March 2, 2008 If you have the swingarm out it is easy. Just 3 bolts hold the whole pinion output shaft assembly in. The shims are between the case and this assembly. Just follow the manual. I elected not to loosen the case pich bolts and no problem. Most time consuming was reinstalling that boot between the pinion and the swingarm with that spring. Not sure why you are contemplating this. Unless you suspect a ujoint issue, I replaced mine and the oring seal while I was in this far, which are easy to change or service with this assembly on the bench, or have a leak, I would leave it alone as it is seldom the cause of issues and taking it apart, especially if you affect that crush collar in the assembly itself. Then you have a lot more of a headache. I see the pinion assemblies for sale on Ebay if you want to take a look at one. Yamaha mechs that advised me about this have a tough time recalling when they have had to work on this area, unless again if it is a ujoint or the seal is leaking. I only did this while tires were off as part of maintenance, suspected pinion had small leak but found now that it was blowback from previous case leaks. Ujoint had no issues before I started playing mechanic with it, but replaced with an automotive cross part# while pinion was out. The new ujoints only come with zerks that wont clear the swingarm housing unless you purchase the Yamaha assembley for 90.00 vs 20.00 for the auto# but you have to remove the zerk and plug the hole with quicksteel or similar after filling with grease. FYI, had to buy so you may need also a 30 mm offset box end wrench, 14 mm allen head or similar driver for the swingarm shaft removal and installation, also need torque wrench which I had already. Hope this choppy rambling helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share #3 Posted March 2, 2008 Not sure why you are contemplating this. Unless you suspect a ujoint issue, Hope this choppy rambling helps. Yes, it's good info...thanks. From my perspective, there seems to be a lot of "play" somewhere and I have a whining kinda noise coming from somewhere down there during deceleration. By "play" I mean that when the bike is on the centerstand and it's in first gear, I can rotate the tire forward and back to what seems to me to be excessive. I can tell by doing this that the free play is at the engine end. Thought maybe there might be a shim issue or something. I'm pretty certain it's not u-joint related tho. Speaking of removing the swing arm, does the rear shock need to be removed to do this? .... Guess I am looking for the easiest "fix" involving the least amount of disassemby. I have everything stripped down to the point of being ready to remove the rear tire. I'm at least going to remove the diff and inspect the driveshaft splines at the diff end and lube them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bigin Posted March 2, 2008 Share #4 Posted March 2, 2008 My bike has some play like you are describing and occasionally whining especially on decelartaion, sometimes feels a little clunky coming out of neutral, sometimes hear back lash when in high gear decelerating and havent down shifted soon enough, but times it doesnt. Dont have any on acceleration though, but seems clunky and whiny at times, a lot like me. I did not pull the rear shock, just the lower shaft. Mine has small amount of play on both upper and lower, but no bushings in assembly so I rotated the shaft 180 degrees hoping it would help and installed. Also have to remove the 2 bolts for the shock arm assembly on top the swing which is obvoius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted March 2, 2008 Share #5 Posted March 2, 2008 Once your onto the 3 Bolts which hold the round Part in Place, you do not need to remove the Bolts completly. Just loosen the Bolts and pull this Beast backwards. The Shims will come out to the left to right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share #6 Posted March 2, 2008 Once your onto the 3 Bolts which hold the round Part in Place, you do not need to remove the Bolts completly. Just loosen the Bolts and pull this Beast backwards. The Shims will come out to the left to right. Yes, I see by the parts blowup that they are in 2 pieces. Those particular shims would affect play "in - out" versus "clockwise - counterclockwise" action on the driveshaft...wouldn't they? I was thinking that maybe the pinion shim which is on the left side versus the output pinion might be worn, causing excess free play where the middle gear pinions mesh. Having said that, I guess either could affect the same thing. I see by the parts diagram that there are 2 possible shim sizes for the output pinion and 3 for the left side pinion. I'm curious if there is a simpler way to determine which shim size is needed other than using the formula as suggested on page 3-33 of the repair manual. Also curious to know if these shims wear out and if such wear would produce the deceleration whine symptoms which I (and obviously others) experience. Possible worn bearings...??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted March 2, 2008 Share #7 Posted March 2, 2008 These cross meshed Parts just wear out a bit. The Shims can't wear out. Last two Motors i did, i just left the thinner Shim out when i bolted them togehter. I didn't use the Procedure which is discribed in the Manual. I felt the Lash of another Motor, which was unopened with my Fingers and used this Feeling and my common Sense for mechanic. Worked fine for me in both Cases. Both Motors have had two Shims prior to the Work i did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted March 2, 2008 Share #8 Posted March 2, 2008 The shims on the output are to set the heel/toe contact. This should be set first as it dose affect backlash. Final backlash is set with the shims on the side. Once this is set the shims don't wear as the are not a moving item. They should not have to be adjusted unless gears or bearings are changed. You could have a bad bearing. That would give you excessive back lash as well as noise. Most gear sets of that size will have about .008 to .010" of back lash. I hope this gives you some insight. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted March 2, 2008 Author Share #9 Posted March 2, 2008 Thanks a bunch guys... I think considering all that's been said and the fact that this noise has been there since I bought it over 2 years ago..I think I'll just leave it alone. It's probably just one of "those noises" many of these bikes have...especially 20 year old ones! Now, I pulled the diff and of course, unlike my 85, the driveshaft is connected to the diff and lubed by the diff so no worries about those splines. The splines at the u-joint end look good and have clean grease. Question now is getting the splined end back into the u-joint as I see it's sitting at a bit of an angle. I recall reading a post a while back about how this can be quite tricky. I haven't gotten to that stage yet so not even sure if I'll have trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted March 2, 2008 Share #10 Posted March 2, 2008 I don't know what some Guys saying about fitting the Drive Shaf into the U-Joint. I pull it out of the Pumpkin, put some Grease on the front Splines, grab it at the rear Spline and fiddle it into the Joint. Fits mostly on th first Try seldom that i need a second ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bigin Posted March 2, 2008 Share #11 Posted March 2, 2008 I have done the shaft into the blind ujoint yoke 3 times now and has not taken more than 5 tries yet. Its not that bad at all. You will get it. Just know the angle the joint is lying and turn the shaft or the whole diff at contact and it will go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted March 3, 2008 Author Share #12 Posted March 3, 2008 I don't know what some Guys saying about fitting the Drive Shaf into the U-Joint. I pull it out of the Pumpkin, put some Grease on the front Splines, grab it at the rear Spline and fiddle it into the Joint. Fits mostly on th first Try seldom that i need a second ... Squeeze... mine is "clipped" to the pumpkin...I'd have to remove the clip and oil seal, etc...I'd not be able to put those back on without pulling the shaft out of the u-joint.... yes/no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted March 3, 2008 Share #13 Posted March 3, 2008 Which Year of the Final Drive are you talking about ? All the Pumpkins(20 to 25) i ever stumbled upon, has been the same. Just grab the Drive Shaft firmly and pull it out of the Pumpkin with one quick Movement. I've never seen a '83 rear End, so this might be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcarl Posted March 3, 2008 Share #14 Posted March 3, 2008 I would be checking the 'final gear case splines'. Mostly these have been run dry and then are worn. This could give you the noise and some of the backlash you are speaking of. Just remove the back wheel and pronto, they are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bigin Posted March 3, 2008 Share #15 Posted March 3, 2008 You might want to thoroughly check that ujoint also. Found one bad on Rustyrecycledtoys bike that could not be detected unless you really got your whole hand around it. At first glance and yanking on it to check the pinion shaft, appeared ok until certain side play was applied. Almost missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted March 4, 2008 Author Share #16 Posted March 4, 2008 Which Year of the Final Drive are you talking about ? All the Pumpkins(20 to 25) i ever stumbled upon, has been the same. Just grab the Drive Shaft firmly and pull it out of the Pumpkin with one quick Movement. I've never seen a '83 rear End, so this might be different. I would be checking the 'final gear case splines'. Mostly these have been run dry and then are worn. This could give you the noise and some of the backlash you are speaking of. Just remove the back wheel and pronto, they are there. Here's a pic of mine. Are you saying I should just "yank" it out of the diff? This assembly is totally different from my '85 .... it did not have a clip, washer, and oil seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcarl Posted March 4, 2008 Share #17 Posted March 4, 2008 Here's a pic of mine. Are you saying I should just "yank" it out of the diff? This assembly is totally different from my '85 .... it did not have a clip, washer, and oil seal. Yep, put the pumpkin behind something solid and give the shaft a jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted March 4, 2008 Author Share #18 Posted March 4, 2008 Yep, put the pumpkin behind something solid and give the shaft a jerk. OK... and what's the process to get the oil seal back in? (gotta cover all the bases here...) Does this oil seal stop the diff oil from leaking out or what's it's purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted March 4, 2008 Share #19 Posted March 4, 2008 Just pull it out and all your Questions will be answered. There is only a smaller Spring coming to light. The Spring sits on the Tip of the Pinion Gear. Normally it won't come loose, but if so, just make sure it's sits there and goes into the Boring in the Shaft when you mount the Pumpkin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dano Posted March 4, 2008 Share #20 Posted March 4, 2008 There is only a smaller Spring coming to light. The Spring sits on the Tip of the Pinion Gear. Normally it won't come loose, but if so, just make sure it's sits there and goes into the Boring in the Shaft when you mount the Pumpkin. Squeeze, I found the spring when I pulled mine out, but my shaft (84) has a post for the spring to go over. It doesn't want to go over the post. SHould it? Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted March 4, 2008 Share #21 Posted March 4, 2008 Squeeze, I found the spring when I pulled mine out, but my shaft (84) has a post for the spring to go over. It doesn't want to go over the post. SHould it? Dan This seems to be reversed than the newer Pumpkins i've seen. If my Memory serves me right, the Tip on which the Spring sits, is 3 or 4 mm in Diameter and some 5 mm long. The Spring has an inner Diameter which is smaller than the Tip. I have had to wiggle it on the Tip. I never gave this a Thought, just put the Spring back on when it came of. I think if the Spring in not on the Tip, this is no big Deal. The Spring shall keep a little forward Pressure on the Shaft,to prevent the Shaft moving back and forth while riding and keep the Splines inside the U-Joint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted March 9, 2008 Share #22 Posted March 9, 2008 OK... and what's the process to get the oil seal back in? (gotta cover all the bases here...) Does this oil seal stop the diff oil from leaking out or what's it's purpose? Any Update on how did this turned, or better said, pulled out ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted March 9, 2008 Author Share #23 Posted March 9, 2008 Any Update on how did this turned, or better said, pulled out ?? Not yet... been too busy with other things... probably tomorrow I will pull it apart. Got some other stuff to do on the scoot yet and at the same time, I'm doing some bodywork on the hood of our Aveo. I don't do much of this stuff during the week... too bagged out by the time I get home from work, chill out, eat supper, watch my fav TV shows, etc... time for bed. I'll post an update with pics once I get into it again... got at least a month before riding season so not in any hurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilvrT Posted March 10, 2008 Author Share #24 Posted March 10, 2008 Any Update on how did this turned, or better said, pulled out ?? Well, I pulled the drive shaft out of the diff...the splines are lubed by the oil in the diff and now I gotta replace the oil seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeeze Posted March 10, 2008 Share #25 Posted March 10, 2008 ... now I gotta replace the oil seal. Why are you in need to replace the Seal ? I never did that and it always worked fine for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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