Won't crank...see symptoms below

[jasonm.]

I have had the bike 20+ years and now with 85k ....Turned on the ignition today. "Hit" the starter switch and heard the starter relay doing machine gun sound. Engine did not crank. Then ALL went dim and black including the dash and headlight. But in ACCESS position all access things work. Then wait 2 minutes...same thing again. Note: my battery is tip top shape AGM, 12.9v before turning the key. My cables and leads are ALL soldered and tight. The service manual test says this is likely the starter switch. I did change out the relay with a good spare...made no difference. In fact testing the original relay off the bike...it acts normal. Anyone care to confirm it's the starter switch ?

[Yammer Dan]

My switch gave up on the 85 and it stuttered and kicked in and out then started the bike and wouldn't kick out. Haven't got around to replacing it yet.

[Prairiehammer]

I'll have to agree. The START switch is broken. Possibly burned/corroded contacts and/or weak internal spring.

[jasonm.]

I looked at the schematic..the starter switch controls the starter relay and dash lights + headlight...so I guess the manual makes sense. I did try to spray some radio Shack contact cleaner in the switch> no change. Wow, this could have left me stranded. I have a parts bike. Is there a way of getting at JUST the starter switch ? Changing out the right switch assy. is no fun. Just thought maybe there's a relay by the headlight in there possibly instead , or also to blame ?

Edited October 13, 2013 by jasonm.

[dingy]

I looked at the schematic..the starter switch controls the starter relay and dash lights + headlight...so I guess the manual makes sense. I did try to spray some radio Shack contact cleaner in the switch> no change. Wow, this could have left me stranded. I have a parts bike. Is there a way of getting at JUST the starter switch ? Changing out the right switch assy. is no fun. Just thought maybe there's a relay by the headlight in there possibly instead , or also to blame ?

 

Thread below details cleaning throttle side switch. Starter switch is at bottom of assembly, so it mostly has to come apart.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=42433

 

To verify it is the switch, jumper Blue with White tracer to GROUND, with key on, at the starter solenoid first. This will verify solenoid is operating as installed. This test will bypass all safety circuits and motor will crank in gear with stand down.

It could also possibly be a corroded Positive lead to the starter solenoid.

 

Then on right control cable, there is a Blue with White tracer wire that can also be jumpered to GROUND with key on. This is wire that activates starter relay in the 41R assembly. If this one cranks motor, then starter switch is faulty. If solenoid test above cranks and this one doesn't, then 41R relay, or conections to it are probably faulty.

 

Gary

[jasonm.]

doing the "jumper" BLUE WIRE TEST.....as stated before , I get the relay clickng rapidly(machine gun sound). But with the relay OFF the bike it passed alll tests. But changed it anyway. Left side switch assemby DOES NOT LOOK LIKE IT'S MENT TO BE DISASSEMBLED. Getting to the starter switch at the bottom ...UGH! So I think it swap it all over from the parts bike I have. Oh, What's the 41R relay you mention. The starter solenoid or another relay?

[dingy]

41R relay is the one that houses the starter relay and turn signal relays. About the size of a cigarette pack. It is in headlight bucket. Unique to Ventures as far as I know.

Did you do 2nd Blue/White wire test?

There is a thread I posted above that details step by step how to clean right side switch.

Gary

[jasonm.]

I have ONLY done the first one, using the blue/white, right at the starter solenoid/relay...next to the battery..click , click, click a few times. Using the key then all is dark WHILE TRYING TO PRESS THE START BUTTON. Wait 2 minutes...all lights work in the "ON" position. Till I push the starter button and all goes out...and this repeats with no engine cranking. That's a great write up. I tell everyone dielectric grease is an insulator and must be used sparingly. It's not really for contacts. I like Radio Shack spray it etches and lubricates. Dielectric in "Webster's" ....... "ability to insulate, stop electron flow". Again great write up. Thanks

Edited October 14, 2013 by jasonm.

[dingy]

That's a great write up. I tell everyone dielectric grease is an insulator and must be used sparingly. It's not really for contacts. I like Radio Shack spray it etches and lubricates. Dielectric in "Webster's" ....... "ability to insulate, stop electron flow". Again great write up. Thanks

 

 

I did that write up in November 2009. Switch works perfectly almost 4 years later that was cleaned when write up was done.

Gary

[jasonm.]

That 41R...does that have a green plug on it? That seems like the quickest swap for me to try off the parts bike. And need to do one more ride before putting it to sleep for the winter.

[dingy]

Green plug is cruise control.

 

Gary

[jasonm.]

the only other one that is similar is the one at "12 o'clock" directly in back of headlight but high. But it says "reserve lighting". Not even easy to remove off a "stripped" bike. IT'S NOT THE STARTER SWITCH. Just replaced it with a known good one. SAME machine gun sound from starter solenoid! Still searching for that 41R...HELP

Edited October 14, 2013 by jasonm.

[dingy]

Only picture I have.

 

9 wires into relay assy.

 

Gary

[jasonm.]

I found 41R...swapped it... still same issue. I know the starter switch from the parts bike is good

[Yammer Dan]

Solenoid??

[jasonm.]

stated at the very beginning the solenoid was changed. I did not say my battery to be new. But sitting for a week or more w/o charging I have 12.9v before turning on the ignition. So I believe it's good. I have had weak batteries before on this an other bikes. But none gave me the solenoid rapid clicking on both solenoids. Swapping the starter switch made no difference. I did try the bypass at the blue/white wire in the harness. It also made ...little difference. Swapping the 41R relay...no diff. Of course I do not know the spare 41R relay to be good. One thing I failed to mention. It did this exact scenario 2 Sundays back. I walked away to get tools. And before tearing into things. It started right up. And had no problem till this past Sunday first thing in the morning. I am questioning the silly main harness wire from the battery. It has WHITE spade ends to make the main fuse assy removable. I never liked this design. I might do a by-pass of the main fuse test...I have lots of heavy gauge wire to do this. Any other ideas or things you have seen...would be appreciated. Oh...one more thing...I have been an electronics tech for 30+ years and this has me questioning my sanity.

[jasonm.]

***The issue is the starter solenoid NOT completely "latching".***It's something really whacky...I attempt to start and the starter solenoid makes rapid ticking even when bypassing the starter switch. The voltage drops to 10v or less and stays their till I turn the ignition off . Then turn it on and it's 13v again. But the cycle starts all over when I try to start.This never happened till this problem showed up. I think I have a power drain, bad ground to something while attempting to start. I do not have the original fuse block. It's been upgraded to blade type with all terminals soldered. Most, not all starting wires have been soldered. But the issue is the starter solenoid NOT latching. I believe due to low voltage or bad ground. Q: What's dragging the voltage down ? And also even though the engine does not turn over...the tach bounces. I put new brushes in the starter at 70k. I cleaned the armature, etc. The starter always worked smoothly. The ends were carefully greased. Could a bad starter cause all these things...low voltage etc. Should I take a hammer to it to see if the brushes are frozen(which I doubt). I don't ever hear the starter move because the solenoid just ticks away. So maybe the starter thing is just what I remember about old cars.

Edited October 15, 2013 by jasonm.

[dingy]

Not sure what you are referring to as latching. There is no latch mechanism in stock solenoid. Thread below shows internals.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=64567

 

One more suggestion, remove positive lead from starter, or at solenoid to starter. If solenoid still chatters, starter is not issue.

 

Gary

[jasonm.]

latching ....meaning as long as the button is pushed...no sound be heard beyond the initial "click". Thanks for that simple test...remove the wire to the starter at the solenoid. I should have thought of that. Simple trouble shooting is ALWAYS a process of elimination. it's late here...time for sleep. I will update ASAP

[Flyinfool]

The machine gun sounding solenoid is almost always due to low voltage.

This can be from a bad or low battery, or a bad connection anywhere in the system.

 

Another quick and easy test.

Use a jumper cable from battery POS, to cable connection on starter motor.

This bypasses the solenoid to see if the starter cranks normally.

Have a volt meter across the batter during this test. If battery drops below 9V you may have a bad battery.

I connect to the starter first and the final connection to the battery just so that I am not under it when it cranks, and so that the arcing does not melt the threads on the starter stud.

 

CAUTION - This also bypasses ALL safeties on the bike, It will turn over in gear, clutch engaged, whatever. This is best done on the center stand so that the back wheel is off the ground for safety.

[frankd]

Jason,

 

You could have a shorted (bad) starter motor. I think I'd disconnect the positive lead on the starter itself, and move it to a position where the terminal isn't touching anything. Then see if the solenoid still clicks in and out. If the solenoid works normally, you could take jumper cables and a car battery and test the starter before you pull it, but you have to be careful. A bad starter can draw a lot of current and also charging batteries produce explosive gas and a spark near the battery could cause the battery to explode. I'd connect both ends of the positive cable (between the car battery and the bike starter), connect the car end of the negative cable, and then touch the bike end of the negative cable somewhere away from the bike battery, even though you have an AGM battery.

 

Frank D.

[jasonm.]

Well, you are absolutely accurate. That short idea, seems to be the issue. I disconnected the starter lead at the solenoid. Solenoid Problem gone. The starter must be drawing massive amps. Enough that it won't turn and cause the relay(s) to click rapidly. The starter barely turns using a charged car battery connected directly. And won't even turn with the bike battery. With them paralleled together, it's barely enough to start the bike. Man this starter worked great for along time. I will tap it lightly with a hammer before my final drive to change the oil. Might help. Now the hassle of taking it out. Anything I should check before I remove it ???

[GeorgeS]

Pull the starter, Clean the armateure, Inspect to Solder joint where the 6MM stud is going thru the insulator, ( Stud might be twisted loose, ) It is only Soldered in place.

 

Inspect the lead pig tails to the Brushes, As I recall they are Soldered in position, you might have to re-solder them

 

One more comment, Very few of these starters have actually failed, you apparently have a rare failure event, here.

 

Be sure to Inspect the bolt hole on the ONE mount bolt, clean the threads with a tap, on re-assembly make sure you have a good ground connection at that hole,

 

Be sure to RE-Solder the Stud on end of red bat cable at the Starter.

[jasonm.]

I did all of what you state last time the starter was out 6+ years ago, when I changed the brushes. They were not wasted but had a lot of dust in the starter. So this really has me baffled. I will check the starter grounding. I think someone posted how to make sure the "ground brush" is grounded by running a wire out while it's apart. I am leaning towards likelyhood...the stud lost a good connection. At least the parts bike has a working starter.So I should be able to fix this. If I remember correctly. I have the remove some "plumbing" to do this?

Edited October 15, 2013 by jasonm.

[Flyinfool]

A bad ground would not cause the starter to draw "massive" amps. It would have the opposite effect.

 

While you are removing the starter, and have things apart, get a wrench on the end of the crankshaft to be sure that the engine is able to turn over freely.

 

If you are going to replace the starter, make sure you are replacing it with a 4 brush starter.