new LIPO batteries

[baylensman]

anyone tried these out yet. expensive but at 3 to 4 times the advertised life as well at lithiums other advantages ( lighter, last longer on single charge, charges quicker, more charge cycles, lower operating temp) may be worthwhile at changeover time

[csdexter]

Glad somebody asked so that I get a chance to advance-warn them. So:

 

LiPo needs a lot more "brains" than Pb-acid (which needs none because it's mostly self-regulating). Just like the LiPo in your mobile phone, they all use pack supervisor chips on a small PCB inside the battery. Those chips take care that the LiPo is charged and discharged properly. And by "properly" I mean "not transform in a fireball".

 

Don't believe it? Search for "LiPo fire" on YouTube and see for yourself ;-)

 

Back to the point, as with many other things in the history of technology, "brains" are hard to get right and are thus expensive. It's easy as cake to build a LiPo battery from individual cells that would output "about" 12V and handle the normal consumption of the bike plus the occasional cranking current spike. It's waaay harder to design a "brain" that can pass the rather high charging current in when the bike runs, the almost 20A of consumption on an all-on bike and the 200-300A spike when you crank. And do all that while also taking care that all cells are balanced, the battery is not over or under temperature and nothing catches fire.

 

Not impossible and not rocket-science, but also not as easy as designing a HID kit, for example. Maybe, in a few years.

 

Bottom line: if you're going to try a LiPo, do some research on the manufacturer. Is that a real company? Do they have any history in making LiPo-s? Do they have any history in making LiPo-s for automotive use? How's the warranty like? Any reviews?

 

NOTE: just buying the most expensive model may still not shield you from bad design inside!

 

Hope this helps,

@Dexter

[GeorgeS]

I was talking to a parts counter guy at Yam dealer. about those new super small batteries.

 

He said when they first came out, for couple years they were failing left and right. !!

 

But, say's he, they are now fixed, and working great!! Well thats what he said. ???

 

Hmmmm ??? well I not convinced as yet. They are a big deal with the dirt bike crowd, and great for weight saveings on the bike.

 

But for the price, I think I will wait a few more years before I jump in on these batteries. I'm sticking with DEKA for the time being.

 

In fact I just ordered a DEKA for the CX-500 C

[Trader]

Hmmm.....with RC Planes I was always taught to recharge Li-po batteries in a fire proof container.

 

Gotta be a reason there!

[Flyinfool]

Hmmm.....with RC Planes I was always taught to recharge Li-po batteries in a fire proof container.

 

Gotta be a reason there!

 

Yes there is.

When a LIPO is over charged they can burst into flame, If over discharged, they can burst into flame. As mentioned above you need some special circuitry to try to make sure this does not happen.

 

A full charged LIPO cell is 4.2V so you can get 4.2V, 8.4V, 12.6V or 16.8V out of a battery.

So on the surface a 3 cell LIPO looks great at 12.6V.

BUT

That peak charged voltage does not last real long before the LIPO settles in to its normal working voltage of 3.7V, this gets you 3.7V, 7.4V, 11.1V, or 14.8V.

Now that 3 cell pack is only getting you 11.1V, a little on the low side, but the 4 cell looks good at 14.8V, but that 4 cell peak voltage of 16.8 is a bit high.

 

I guess that LIPO could be good on a vehicle designed for it, I would not trust it as a retrofit on a vehicle designed for lead acid. The voltages just don't match up well.

From my experience with a lot of LIPOs, and a lot of lead acid, the LIPOs do not have near the service life of a lead acid.

[baylensman]

well thanks everyone for chiming in. That's what I think forums are all about. I don't need a battery yet, just lining up info. With the recent advances in straight up Lithium ION batteries and what they are doing in tools I was hoping that the LIPO would be that big a step over lithium at change over time, but will have to wait and see.

[syscrusher]

Have had a Shorai in my dual sport bike for a year now and I love it! I can leave the bike sit for the Winter and it is ready to go when I am. Lots of power. The Flyinfool knows that stepping down the voltage isn't a real issue, it's pretty simple and inexpensive to do. Shorai sells their own charger for optimal charging but the circuits in my DR650 seem to do fine keeping it topped up, as stated by Shorai as well. Claim is for 7 years or so of service and I'll have to see if that happens.

 

An interesting aside, the new battery is more powerful than spec'd one was but also smaller. It shipped with lots of stick-on foam pieces that you use to build up the battery size and fill out the battery box. This has the side effect of padding the battery pretty well against damage. I may never buy another lead acid battery.

[csdexter]

That's why I wrote "do some research" above ;-)

 

Judging by the information on their site and other third-party reviews, Shorai appears to be a no-bull**** company, indeed. Were I in the US, I would buy my next battery from them (along with a good voltmeter, but that's just my OCD kicking in).

 

Unfortunately, shipping to Ireland is probably going to raise the price above the "two old-style Pb-acid batteries" mark so, for the the time being, it's not worth it for me.

[sandman]

You do remember the new dreamliners that were grounded because of battery fires recently? If the tech used in aircraft are still having problems, well. Your decision. good luck either way.

[syscrusher]

You do remember the new dreamliners that were grounded because of battery fires recently? If the tech used in aircraft are still having problems, well. Your decision. good luck either way.

 

Yeah! And on the DR650 the battery is right under my chestnuts ready to roast 'em to toasty goodness!

[Flyinfool]

............The Flyinfool knows that stepping down the voltage isn't a real issue, it's pretty simple and inexpensive to do. ........

 

......... Claim is for 7 years or so of service and I'll have to see if that happens.

 

An interesting aside, the new battery is more powerful than spec'd one was but also smaller. It shipped with lots of stick-on foam pieces that you use to build up the battery size and fill out the battery box. This has the side effect of padding the battery pretty well against damage. I may never buy another lead acid battery.

 

Yes stepping voltage up or down is pretty simple and inexpensive until you throw high amperage into the equation. Current handling costs money.

 

I have never had a lithium battery last more than a couple years. Starter current and high rate charging is whats hard on them.

 

On the other hand, Lithium technology is advancing in leaps and bounds, I will certainly not claim to be up on all of the latest and greatest developments. But I do have trouble believing manufacturer claims of things that can not be tested. The only way to test for a 7 year life will take 7 years to test. In 7 years this will be old technology.

 

Lithium batteries when burning can provide their own oxygen for the fire, once started they are hard to put out and burn very aggressively. Lead and battery acid are not easily burned.

 

Reading the info on the Shorai website is interesting and even confirms some of what we have been saying.

 

Over charge or discharge is "Dangerous".

If you accidentally leave something on the bike turned on and kill the battery, It is junk and not covered under warranty. As well as "Dangerous" (Possible fire?)

Never let the battery sit for more than 2 weeks in the bike without being driven or on their charger. Non warranty damage can occur.

If you put it in storage mode it can sit for a year IF you keep it in your refrigerator at 34*F.

The battery does not like a real winter, below 40°F you have to go through a "Wake up" (warm up) procedure before cranking.

 

The charger has a "Storage Mode" this is a mode where the battery is held at 50% charge for storage. So you then have to charge the battery before you can jump on and ride. The battery does not like to be stored fully charged and ready to go.

 

The battery will never be fully charged by the bikes electrical system, only their charger will get the battery up to 100% charge.

 

On the other hand, with what I know about cell resistance and discharge curves. There are some distinct advantages to the LIPO batteries. A battery of similar performance will be a lot smaller and lighter than its equivalent Pb battery.

 

I just do not know if the current technology is quite ready for prime time YET.

And at $276 or $350, plus a required $85 charger. I can keep the bike in lead acid batteries for the next 20+ years.

[syscrusher]

Didn't quote but I'll try my spin on some of the things said.

 

On a bike it's not really going to be detrimental to send 14.8 volts to lighting, horn, or starter and the items where a slight overvoltage will be problematic are low current and incorporate their own regulator/limiting circuits.

 

I can't really respond about lifecycle but my old lead acid unit was never ready when I wanted to ride unless I had just ridden it within days and it was only a year old. On the other hand the one previous to that may have been original which would have lasted eight years.

 

The warm-up procedure that I am aware of consists of trying the starter. This initiates new chemical activity and the subsequent attempt is met with greater vigor, nothing too complicated.

 

Their charger has not yet been necessary for me. For my NiMh hybrid car batteries, they are maintained at around 50% when driving. This provides the best longevity. I know apples and oranges, but for some batteries 100% charge isn't advisable, it sounds like maybe LFP batteries share this trait if the storage charger is 50% as well. I would be willing to bet a trophy nickel that most of these would start a 1300cc motorcycle while at 50% charge!

 

The real advantage of Shorai's fancy charger is in it's abilities to bring a LFP battery back from the brink and whatnot. Their website says that the batteries work fine with existing charging circuits of cars and motorcycles and with battery tenders, etc.

 

The street price of a LFP battery that is large enough for my 2053cc V-Twin was around $170. The spec is for one of the largest MC batteries that one could need to buy. It was a LFX18A1-BS12 with 270 cold cranking amps. This is similar to the largest batteries that Amazon lists for the VR at a price of $115. So sure, it's more expensive, but I'll bet it would solve some of these slow cranking issues that I read about.