Kill Two, Pay $65

[Gary N.]

 

Some folks here are taking a purely non emotional look at this. This is good, but I can damn sure tell you that the mindset would be different if someone they loved were put into the equasion.

 

Now I'm off my soapbox.

 

Well Brad, I'm afraid, at least in my case, I have to disagree with you. And I do look at it with emotion.

The 16 year old girl that hit us, killing Leslie and almost killing me, saw us when she stopped at the intersection and admitted she saw my modulating headlight but thought we were turning right so she pulled out in front of us. (Lack of good driver ed.?) She was charged with motor manslaughter and given a 90 day suspended sentence, providing she got counseling, and lost her licence for two years.

Having had two teenage drivers in our home I know first hand what a parent goes through every time they leave with the car.

There is nothing that they could have done to this girl that will change anything. The fact that I know that she has a conscience and will be haunted by what she has done for the rest of her life is all the punishment that I need.

These are her words, written one year to the day after our accident.

"No words could ever describe how sorry I am. Not a day goes by where I don't think about what happened a year ago. Truly, sorry, from the bottom of my soul."

October 17, 2008 9:29 AM

[slick97spirit]

I know this won't be popular but I've worked in the system for nearly 29 years. The judges hands are tied in cases such as this and has to hand down a fine commiserate to the charge. They don't like it anymore than we do. But it's the prosecutors who decide the charges and sometimes they can do nothing more than a traffic ticket. Now when a judge hands down a fine in a case where someone is hurt or killed they know that doesn't help the families of the victim at all. The judges know that the only recourse is for the family to take the person to civil court. This doesn't always work if the person has nothing to give but the judges can do nothing about it.

As bad as it seems imagine a family member of yours, say an 18 year old daughter who'se never been in trouble a single day in her life. She is out shopping one day and due to the bright sun doesn't see a MC coming her way and she pulls out causing the MC to strike her. This person is killed or hurt bad. Can you imagine seeing someone calling for her to be tried for manslaughter? I can't. There are plenty of people who deserve the charge of involuntary manslaughter but some are just plain terrible accidents. Just imagine one of your family members making a mistake one day and you having to wonder why they have to go to prison for an honest mistake.

It's not always a black and white situation.

 

 

I agree. When you're the one dealing with the loss it's easy to look at it with a one-sided view. We should all put ourselves in the other persons shoes. Now if that person has been drinking, drugging, etc. different story.

[GeorgeS]

Buy several books on " Defensive Driveing " Read them, Always drive your car as if you are on your Bike !!! Develop the survival Skills, while driveing your car. And always drive bye those rules !!!

 

I let everybody else have the right of way.

 

And my prime rule on the bike, is " Maintain Maximum Seperation " from all other vehicals !! If you Ain't there, they can't get you !!!!!

 

Always know what your Escape Route is, and stay as close to it as possible.

 

If you expect to be given your " Right of Way " , sorry folks, your liveing in

" La La Land "

 

--- And one more item: LEARN TO USE YOUR FRONT BRAKES !!!!!

[T-Paw]

While it is true that we all do things that we like to call "ACCIDENTS" the truth is that 99% of these "ACCIDENTS" could be prevented if we get our heads out of a**.

 

This is not an opinion but fact. National Highway Safety & Transportation, N.H.T.S.A., now refers to these "ACCIDENTS" as Collisions. They do this because they are preventable in the majority of case's. Whether it be a careless act on the part of a 2 wheeler, 4 wheeler or 18 wheeler.

 

And, I agree, HANG UP THE CELL PHONE!!! It ain't a phone booth!

 

Just my humble opinion for what it is worth.

[BigBoyinMS]

I think most of us agree that the majority of these crashes occur from someone not paying attention to what they should be doing. So how do we make them more attentive?

What happens when you walk into a store and you see a "You break it, You buy it" sign. You either turn around and leave or you instantly start paying attention to what you are doing.

It should be the same way with these drivers.

You pull out in front of someone and you should pay for the damage to the bike, medical expenses, lost wages and any incidental costs. Hit them where it matters and they will remember.

I know, it'll never happen. They are just accident's.

[IH Truck Guy]

If you find "Right Of Way" violations and the slap on the hands that most of the offenders receive disturbing, you should get in touch with your local A.B.A.T.E. chapter..

This is one of the things that they are really trying to change the laws on..

[magoo]

bright sun doesn't see a MC coming her way and she pulls out causing the MC to strike her. This person is killed or hurt bad. Can you imagine seeing someone calling for her to be tried for manslaughter? I

 

pulling out on to the road when you cant see seems to me thats careless driving at the least.

[SilvrT]

I'm on my scoot going down the street. Your in a car coming towards me. There's an intersection between us and the light is green and it stays that way. You look at me and it appears I'm going at a speed slow enuf that you have enough time and room to make a left turn safely. I look at you, see your left blinker but figgure you're going to wait for me to pass before you turn. I then see you turning but by that time, it's too late to avoid the inevitable. We collide (aka Crash aka have an Accident). Who's at fault? Who pays for my severe injuries that cripple me for the rest of my life?

 

a) ... you should have waited ... you misjudged..you made a mistake.

b) ... I should have anticipated and slowed down or took some other evasive action ...I misjudged...I made a mistake.

 

Well, what it "should" be is that you failed to yield the right-of-way and I am "squeaky-clean" ... I have done nothing wrong ... but the reality is, we BOTH misjudged each other.

 

My point being....

 

The fact is, WE are on a motorcycle and the fact is, it is harder for people to judge our distance from them, our speed, our real size, and a whole lot of other things. WE need to be much more defensive ... WE should not rely on the other for our safety.

 

I agree, EDUCATION is seriously lacking and penalties for various driving infractions are ridiculous so with that in mind, it's UP TO US to look after OURSELVES first and foremost.

[Lobo Hurfiano]

If M/C were required to carry a case of dinomite , folks would be LOOKing for them.

[timgray]

I disagree. The problem is MOST drivers are not very well trained. MOST kids today get their license without doing everything they are supposed to do. Their parents sign off on it fully knowing that their little darling did not drive 15 hours at night and 100 hours in the daytime. My daughter is a YEAR LATE getting hers because I refuse to sign off. I tell her all the time that she is driving a weapon and can kill people in a second if she is not paying attention all the time. Most parents ignore their kids and let them do what they want. Some are dumb and give their kids at 17 a nice high power sportscar and then onder why their darling is dead in a mangled wreck.

 

Drivers license is too easy to get and too easy to keep. Require everyone to take a road test every 5 years. hitting a motorcycle needs to make you lose your license for 1 year MINIMUM. If people understand that if they cut that loud biker off and cause an accident they will not have a license and 4X insurance costs, they will magically start looking for us.

 

I watch every day some really dumb cager barreling at a car stopped in the road and then they panic stop and jerk the wheel in the last 100 feet. These people will gladly barrel into you, the think they are invincible in their cars. Cautious driving is the exception and not the rule with cagers. Most are doing 10-15 over the speed limit, 12-6 feet from your rear bumper, most cars are poorly maintained and have bald tires or are not properly maintained so they skid farther, Most are messing with something or have some distraction.

 

All of these add up to "oops sorry, I did not see him." Nobody is accountable for their actions in a car. If you "accidently" kill someone, it's called manslauter. It needs to be applied to that 16 year old darling because she killed someone accidently. If I accidently kill someone hunting, you bet they will throw those charges at me.

 

This brings me to some words that echo in my head to this day.... I was appalled at a comment a woman made in a traffic safety course I took as a younger lad... she said "But he's a biker, so it should not be so bad if I hit him." Those comments stuck with me to this day, and is what makes me ride like every car on the road is trying to kill me.

[PGunn]

"All of these add up to "oops sorry, I did not see him." Nobody is accountable for their actions in a car. If you "accidently" kill someone, it's called manslaughter. It needs to be applied to that 16 year old darling because she killed someone accidently. If I accidently kill someone hunting, you bet they will throw those charges at me."

 

Ok let’s put this in a context everyone can understand. See I am a hunter also and I use a weapon that can send a projectile up to 7 miles and it isn't all that big just 6.5mm in dia. Now if I fire that bullet at a target with a backstop and the bullet bounces off a rock or anything I am still responsible for it even though I have no control of it. Now let’s say it goes through the wall of a house a mile away, yup I'm still responsible for it, and it kills a 5 year old. Now that will result in an involuntary manslaughter charge and there is no $65.00 surcharge here this is I'm paying the price because I did not check everything before pulling the trigger, accident or not. Now is this an accident or is it negligence on my part for not making sure the backstop was clear of debris that may cause to happen what I described above?

Now is there any difference than me in my car not checking before I pull out to INSURE that what I perceive to be fact is? I am sorry that my actions pulling out got you killed, hurt or otherwise because I thought you were going to do something that you did not do? Should I also be held accountable for my inactions as well as my actions. Was it an accident , yes I did not mean to pull out in front of you, should I be punished for what I did yes I should because it is part of having the RIGHT TO DRIVE a car or any other mode of transportation. This slap on the hand stuff has to stop because it is getting people killed including cagers and their families in them. It’s time that the Police start cracking down on the speeders, the too bright headlights, the folks who feel it’s ok to do 40 in a 65 for no other reason than they can, change lanes without looking and using the excuse “I didn’t see them” yea right because you didn’t even bother to look. You also know using that excuse will guarantee a free ride out of trouble and if you want to see how effective that excuse is ask any lawyer and see what he says.

Age should not make any difference and should the PARENTS of those under 21 be held accountable yes they should. I know a whole new can of worms here but you weren't there so why should you be... think about who let them have the keys in the first place and I bet you would think long and hard if you knew your lively hood was at stake if you were held RESPONSIBLE because you signed off and never held up your end during the training because "you didn't have the time" to train then correctly, now who is responsible?

Right "it was only an accident no one is at fault it could of happened to anyone" and why because someone would have to take responsibility for thier actions....

[Gary N.]

Think about what you're saying here. We don't live in the dark ages. We don't cut someones hand off for stealing. What would you have done with a 16 year old who made a mistake. A tragic mistake to be sure, but a mistake just the same. Do you want an eye for an eye? We all have made mistakes.

OK, so we hold the parents responsible. What if it's a single parent living from pay day to pay day or maybe they don't even have a payday. What then, you can't get blood from a stone.

We don't live in a perfect world. Accidents, crashes and mistakes happen every day. People get hurt and killed. Those that cause the pain either pay or they don't. That's how it is.

The good Lord gave most of us a conscience and for me the worse punishment there could be would be having someones hurt or death on my conscience for the rest of my life.

[Yammer Dan]

Think about what you're saying here. We don't live in the dark ages. We don't cut someones hand off for stealing. What would you have done with a 16 year old who made a mistake. A tragic mistake to be sure, but a mistake just the same. Do you want an eye for an eye? We all have made mistakes.

 

OK, so we hold the parents responsible. What if it's a single parent living from pay day to pay day or maybe they don't even have a payday. What then, you can't get blood from a stone.

 

We don't live in a perfect world. Accidents, crashes and mistakes happen every day. People get hurt and killed. Those that cause the pain either pay or they don't. That's how it is.

 

The good Lord gave most of us a conscience and for me the worse punishment there could be would be having someones hurt or death on my conscience for the rest of my life.

 

 

 

Gary says a lot here. We can't judge everyone the same in these. Guy that hit me was High and has no regrets. Not always like that. Bikes are sometimes hard to see. I don't want to find out how I would feel if I was the one that didn't "SEE"

[GaryZ]

Take a breath and step back off of your high horse or soap box and look at the real world.

 

 

Very well said . . . IMHO the folks that are the quickest to blame are also the the fastest to deny.

Edited February 25, 2009 by GaryZ

[Brenda H]

And people wonder why my favorite color in Goldwings is Hot Rod Yellow Pearl. Why I'm planning on putting alot more lights on my bike although with a 650, that can be rather "fun". Why I ride like the world was out to kill me. And so on.

 

I used to work for a state highway department. The number of morons involved in accidents, repeatedly in some cases, for driving while DUI in one form or another would blow your mind. And this is on the state level only, not local. These same morons got to keep their licenses and their vehicles. IT SUCKS!

 

Some folks say that people should not go to jail for this. That's what probation is for. That's what sizeable fines are for. Suspend their license and MAKE SURE they stop driving. Seize their car, repeatedly if you have to. If they're found behind the wheel again, go directly to jail, do not pass go, etc. And probation should never be for less than 5 years. Who knows, some people might actually "grow up".

 

On the other hand. . .

While visiting my mum in Illinois a couple years ago, I kept running across signs set up literally all over town saying in effect "LOOK OUT FOR MOTORCYCLES". First and only time I have ever seen that anywhere before or since. And these were not little signs. They were 4x6 and in some cases 6x8 banners, put up by the city p.d. I thought it rather nice of them since I had ridden up there on my bike.

 

I've found over the years that the laws APPEAR to be leaning in the direction of the cagers. If they hit one of us as riders, they might get a traffic ticket. If we as cagers, hit another vehicle [not a bike], we can get charged with vehicular manslaughter or something along those lines. Not exactly fair so far as I've seen. As I understand it, this is one of the AMA's pet peeves, that motorcycle fatalities are not being treated the same as vehicular fatalities. That has got to change. If you make a mistake, you pay for it, one way or another. And a $65 traffic fine doesn't cut it.

[BoomerCPO]

IMHO there is a severe imbalance in the application of MV laws in cars vs MC's.

 

Last summer I lost a very good friend due to some knucklehead RUNNING A RED LIGHT. My friend on his scoot T-boned the guy. The resultant injuries had my friend DOA before the ambulance pulled into the Hospital less than 2 miles away.

 

The driver of the cage was cited with running a red light ONLY. My friend's family found out that the cage jerk owned nothing so suing the guy would be like trying to get water from a stone.

 

It took a few months but justice was finally rendered to the cage driver ala "biker style"........and you can bet the farm that fool is still in the healing process to this day......and there is more justice coming his way too but he does not know it yet.

 

 

No I had nothing to do with the rendering of justice.....but I sure as hell applaud those that did the honors.

 

Boomer.............who missed the street party.

[Ivan]

All I can say is that killing two only costs $65, I have some people on my list.....

 

ok better shut up now.

 

Sad fact is that you have to be aware enough for you and the other guy, cause he is using his cell and fiddling with the radio. I have saved my butt several times by looking ahead 3-4 times as far as I would in a cage and being ready for the worst.

[Snaggletooth]

Every now and then there is some justice. Here in Omaha a while back a rider was struck and killed by a cager that screwed up. I read a couple of days ago that the cager was sentenced and the court ordered him to pay $150,000 to the family of the biker. You don't see that kind of response very often from the courts.

 

The cager was uninsured so it's his pocket that will take the hit. What are the odds of the family ever seeing a dime of that..........slim to none, but at least the court did what was right.

[SilvrT]

Every now and then there is some justice. Here in Omaha a while back a rider was struck and killed by a cager that screwed up. I read a couple of days ago that the cager was sentenced and the court ordered him to pay $150,000 to the family of the biker. You don't see that kind of response very often from the courts.

 

The cager was uninsured so it's his pocket that will take the hit. What are the odds of the family ever seeing a dime of that..........slim to none, but at least the court did what was right.

 

They'll guarnashee his wages to cover it...IF he has wages...

[a1bummer]

Ok when do we as people start taking responsibility for our actions? When do we as people start teaching that even if it was an accident you are still responsible for its outcome. When do we start teaching that when you kill or cripple someone you are responsible for that accident or not. Forget the fines, forget who pays who, forget the lawyers and courts, when do the people who caused the accident start taking responsibility for their actions? How many times have you told your kids, "Don't worry it was an accident and not your fault it could have happened to anyone." Yea "stuff" happens and yes we who ride do so with the knowledge that someday sometime we may get hit but when will the ones who cause the accident take responsibility for their actions.

Auto accidents do not just happen they are caused by the inaction of another, not looking, not pay attention, talking on the phone, yelling at the kids in the backseat, fighting with the passenger what ever the reason you can't deny the fault is with the one who CAUSE the accident and that is the driver not the passenger, the driver is in control at all times. That person should take responsibility for their actions and own up to it. Want to make things better stop using your cell phone while driving and point out to your kids on how it is wrong to do. Point out to your kids how distracting it is when they fight in the car, pull the car over and tell them and spend some time doing it. Anytime something is going on and your distracted pull the car over and tell whoever that what they are doing is distracting. I did just that with my step-son once. He was acting up I asked him 3 times to knock it off and he didn’t. I pulled the over to the shoulder and he asked me what was I doing I told him “waiting for the state trouper to come along so you can explain to him why you feel you don’t have to behave in the car” he freaked. We sat there for 20 minutes and no cop (yea I know why is there never one around) but it worked he never acted up in the car again because he knew what was a possibility of happening. Somewhere along the line we as parents, teachers, who ever have forgotten to teach WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS and it’s time we start teaching that again. Remember when you kill someone you are responsible for that death because you were not paying attention at the time; it’s your fault you ended that persons life because you were too busy to pay attention.

And don’t even get me started on drinking and driving…….

Do you think bubble wrap would help?

[Poledar]

All of these need to be forwarded to the American Motorcyclist Association. They are actively working to get fines/penalties to be commensurate with the accident. Their success is based on information and the more we can send them the better!

 

POLEDAR...

[dna9656]

I was on terminal leave (using up my outstanding leave) after the SEC USAF finalized my medical retirement out of the USAF. Some SOBER guy pulled out in front of me on the last Monday before Halloween in 1996. The State Trooper says I was "lost in the headlights of the cars behind me". The guy had 4 traffic judgments against him. He got another truck and a failure to yield charge. I got 13 more months in the service for a shattered wrist, pre-mature arthritis in that wrist and hip (where they harvested bone to screw on to the end of my shattered arm), totaled my beautiful alluvial gold 83 venture royale. I cried bull****. He couldn't have missed me; the cars behind me had to stop at the light I just drove through! How do you NOT see a man (I'm 5'7") a bike the size of a venture with a head light and 2 running lights, the only thing in your immediate front? You're not paying attention; he was pulling into a place where there is an Arby's, a BAR, and an auto parts store. He was thinking about fixing his car, getting something to eat or drink. Here's how I faired: $3500.00 for the bike I paid 3k plus tax for. I installed a new front tire and a windshield. Because I was still (technically) on active duty I had no hospital bill (more on that in a minute) and I was fully paid during my hospital time; all as it should be. Here's the rub: my insurance company advised me I didn't need to carry underinsured motorist insurance because I was in the military, the military would cover my medical regardless, ok fine; saved me a few bucks right? Well the injury was worth $75,000.00 in the courts (for pain and suffering) the guy had $25k for liability insurance. I got the $25,000, out of that $ my lawyer got $7,500, the military (who would have got ZERO had I not got this guy's insurance) got what they thought my hospital time costs.;$8,300.00 and I got the rest. How does the military figure they spent that on me? the Drs. would have been paid had they been on leave, or sat on their asses at work, same as everyone else in the hospital. The materials used in my care? Bed sheets, bandages, and stiches? the food?(PLEASE!) NO; the money went to better the hospital that they then closed of 1/2 of so they could send more people off base for care.....How does THAT work?

The better side: because I was in "the line of duty "(I wasn't breaking any laws and had not been drinking) my broken wrist is service connected; that means when I finally can't use it they will increase my disability by some small amount, and they are on the hook to fix it if possible, I admit that's a lot more than you non-Vets would get in similar circumstances. My kids sure could have used that $$ for college though.

I get some people didn't see some one, but I have to ask, why didn't you see them. How many accidents have there been in any particular place that excuse is (was) used? MAYBE that place should be re-engineered huh? DUH! I don't get the cop saying "that's a bad spot" if that's true let's get some REAL engineers there to make a determination and if it's found to be FUBAR we should crucify the guy that designed the "spot" like we would any other engineer that designed a poor school or hospital that upon it's collapse killed 57 people.

Edited September 2, 2014 by dna9656

[Venturous]

We all make mistakes. And anyone here who claims to be incapable of mistakes is full of sh!t!

 

Wanting to crucify a driver who makes a mistake simply because the victim was riding a bike is a total crock. My wife is a loving person and a very decent driver. In 30 years she has 1 accident. She pulled out in front of an SUV she didn't see due to partially obscured roadway. Bottom line, she did not look hard enough. A mistake. Now... she took the worse of that accident. But if it had been a motorcycle instead of a SUV she pulled in front of... it would not have made the mistake any worse.

 

Now, if an accident is due to being impaired... or due to reckless driving such as extreme speeding... I say yes... throw the book at them. But that should be true whether the victim is riding a bike or driving a Humvee. This idea that we as motorcyclists should receive greater justice simply because we choose to ride is absolutely ridiculous IMHO.

[Donvito]

I don't know where you all are from, but, in 1973, in NJ, to get my permit, I had to read a brochure and pass a written test. After passing, I was allowed to drive from DMV with a 17 year old licensed driver on Rt. 17 in northern NJ, one of the most dangerous roads in the country. After two or three months, I had to pass a simple driving test and I then could drive anywhere and whenever.

 

In Florida, where I currently reside, my son, who is now 19, took a driver's ed class in high school at 15 and was granted a permit. At 16 he received a restricted license. Restrictions as to the time of day he could drive, the age of the licensed driver and the number of people in the car. He was a safe and cautious driver but inexperienced.

 

One day, when he was 16, he stopped for a soft drink after school. While driving, the drink fell from the cup holder as he was making a turn. He tried to grab the drink and swerved into a car stopped at a light. Minor damage and no injuries. He was ticketed. What if a moving motorcycle was in that lane and the rider was hurt or killed? A tragedy but should he go to prison or receive "biker justice". We are well insured and would be willing to pay whatever civil

judgement was rendered as it was his fault. But to destroy another life isn't right.

 

It's sad, but sometimes it is an unintentional, momentary mental lapse. Three years later, that is his only accident or ticket. Put your self on the other side and think if it is your loved one that caused the accident and what you would want to see happen to them. Punishment must fit the crime. Driving while impaired or habitual offenders should be punished.

 

I have been riding since I was 17 and, if you haven't done the math, I'm 58 and have never, knock wood, been involved in a crash with another vehicle. When I was young and stupid, I was lucky. As I matured, I follow some rules of riding. I NEVER, even one beer, drink and ride. I don't intentionally ride at night. I ride as if you don't see me. I keep a cushion around me and other cars. I'm mentally prepared to evade a vehicle and have an escape route. You can't eliminate the dangers but you can reduce them by your riding habits.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Donvito

[dna9656]

I think why we might feel more protection should be given bikers is because we (as bikers) see a lot more carelessness and lack of attention by cagers (people driving 4 wheels or more) because it more directly threatens us. We; on the other hand feel that as bikers we ay a lot more attention to the traffic than do the cagers. I have to agree with this. All we want is people to be more aware and look for motorcycles. They seem to never get that regardless because when they don't there are no or little in the way of penalties, and we all know when we have a lot to loose we're much more careful with our behavior.

The frequency of incidents drives this feeling too. 2 or more times a month I'm run out of my lane on SR 3 here in Kitsap County, WA. I drive this road twice a day, there is other routes but they are way out of the direction I need to go. Funny; I have fewer incidents at night; harder NOT to see a bike at night? I should hope so.

We heard "I didn't see him" used as a defense too often. In other areas of the law, like hazardous waste handling the law says you can be found guilty of miss-handling hazardous waste if (using the reasonable person standard) you improperly dealt with it. Now that means that if you have rec'd the proper training from or through your employer, passed a test proving you understood the training; you're in trouble. No it doesn't really matter if you made a mistake, or had a bad day and you dropped a bucket of Haz Mat into a river; YOU did it. YOU can be found guilty. What about having known you should be sure before there is nothing in or too close to the spot you want to be in when you change a lane? Why was it so crucial that a cager be in the other lane? How many times have wee been cut off so some one can pass a couple cars just to get off the highway (in a high speed maneuver) immediately after passing the last car? Or the car keeps on zipping in and out of different lanes just so they can zoom down the road and be first? As mush as I do not like unmarked police cruisers (the sneakiness bugs me) it is OH SO gratifying when some smart ass gets himself busted for reckless operation. BTW women are just as bad as the men. IMHO