Hold your breath, I'm goin in......

[Flyinfool]

Well after my "interesting" ride home from MD, I have finally started in on the bike.

 

I am writing this up to give an idea of one way to track an intermittent issue. I never went to the school of "Throw money into new parts untill the issue goes away"

 

First the symptoms.

 

1. At random times while on the interstate the engine would shut off. Some times it was just a barely detectable hiccup, other times it would kill long enough to coast from 75 down to 60 mph. Of course if it did a kill thing at lower speed the engine would be stop all together.
   
2. When the engine would kill the tach would drop to zero, even though it was still in gear and momentum was spinning the engine.
   
3. With every tiny little hiccup the cruise would kick out.
   
4. When the engine did die because I was going to slow for momentum to keep spinning it over, the starter would not engage to attempt a restart.
   
5. It seemed to get worse with the distance of any single leg. When I would leave a rest stop it would be perfect for 25-30 miles, it would then start with an occasional hiccup, by 30-35 miles it was getting near the point of hard to continue. Fortunately that is also about the same distance as the rest stops along the interstate.
   

 

At least I never got stranded along the side of the road, I was always able to limp into the next rest area. A few times coasting with no power.

 

So now I know that I have an intermittent issue, that I believe is electrical. If it was fuel related the tach would not drop to zero with the engine spinning.

 

What I did while on the way home;

Bypassed the side stand switch.

Removed the side stand relay.

Added a jumper to run the starter motor when needed.

 

After a lot of studying of the wiring diagrams I determined that there are only 2 components that could cause all of these symptoms.

First is the ignition fuse, it supplies power to all of these circuits.

Second is the kill switch, which when open turns off the ignition, the cruise, the tach and disables the solenoid.

I have also determined that it is not one of the safety systems. None of them have the ability to disable the starter, just the ignition.

Then there is the dreaded third option, an intermittent bad wire or dirty connector somewhere in that same circuit.

 

So this is where the journey begins.

I started by inspecting the fuse panel. I do have an AGM fuse panel in place and the contacts in the fuse holder have good tension and are clean.

I then went right for dissembling the kill switch.

The contacts have a slight discoloration to them but not bad, and some old dried grease, again not bad. It did not look near bad enough to cause an issue. But stranger things have happened. The next thing I noticed, well actually it was the first, but there is a small piece of black plastic (pic of it in my hand) was floating around in there. It fell out as I opened the switch to expose the contacts.

After some head scratching I determined that it is from the top of the black triangle that the wires attach to. it is the pivot point for the switch rocker. Me thinks we might just have a smoking gun here. If the switch rocker is able to move around it could lose contact and turn things off.

 

So now I get to start hunting for a new kill switch plate.

In the meantime I will attempt a temporary repair of this one till I find a replacement.

 

The broken switch does not explain why after every rest stop cool down all was good for the next 20 or so miles then it would start acting up again. I think there may be more issues. But I will Repair or replace anything faulty that I find while working on this.

 

To this end I am going to install a temporary over ride switch that will put battery power direct to the TCI, and disable the safety systems so that during testing, if it should cut out and not want to come back, I am not stranded somewhere. I will also wire in a push button switch direct for the solenoid, again bypassing all of the safeties. Once I isolate and fix the problem ALL systems will be returned to normal with all safety systems in place and functioning.

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Freebird

[rickardracing]

Jeff, if it was me, I would still be along side the road. I can wire a house with no problem, but tracking down gremlins and by-passing things like you did, I just do not have the know how. I would start with the kill switch and go from there. It is odd that after a certain distance, almost like clockwork, it would start to act up. Keep us all updated as to your progress and findings.

[Flyinfool]

The JB Weld on the switch should be set up by tomorrow night and I can then put it all back together and head out for a 60 or so mile test ride.

I may be doing a lot of 60 mile test rides in the next week.

If it is not the switch, then I will have to make and install an idiot light board.

It will be a small circuit board with a bunch of LEDs, each one connected to some part of the circuit. I will then be able to tell in real time which part of the circuit is going out. But this is a PITA to implement.

 

The thing that really surprised me through this whole ordeal, was that being in a rest stop parking lot with half the fairing off and scattered every where, in the whole day only one person asked if I had a problem. That one person happened to have a chunk of cable big enough and with the right terminals to make the jumper for jumping the solenoid.

There were many bikers that just walked past looking at the show.

I don't know if I just looked like I had it under control or was already in deeper than what anyone thought they could possibly help with.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Flyinfool

[abusive throttle cranker]

Consider heat as a factor. With the delay before the onset of symptoms something could be getting hot enough to fail. A coil? Nah that would only be a partial die off...

 

As for the parking lot- if I saw that I'd figure this guy must know what hes doing and probably carries more tools than I do.

[Big Lou]

IS THAT THE SWITCH ON THE HANDLE BARS?????

 

I THOUGHT THAT THING ONLY WORKED WHEN YOU LAID IT OVER:rotf:

 

 

THAT IS THE ONLY TIME MINE DONE ANYTHING:detective:

[pmelah]

hope that was the problem and its fixed ...i do like the board idea on all circuits to see real time could you do a detailed plan of one i would implement it on my bike i hat not knowing where to start on a problem that would narrow it down for quick fix

[rickardracing]

Circuit board ia an awesome idea.

[frankd]

Jeff,

 

When I first bought my 89, it would intermittently go dead at a stop and then restart. Then it'd go out, be dead for a couple of seconds and then start running again. Then I noticed that (like you did) that the cruise lights went out when it went dead and then came back on. You said that you didn't think that the kill switch didn't explain it starting after a rest......

 

There is quite a bit of current flowing through the kill switch contacts. If the contacts were dirty, the contact resistance would be higher. The current through this resistance could get the contacts HOT. This could cause them to move apart, creating an open circuit. Then because you would shut the key off, the current would quit flowing and the contacts could cool down and make again. I'm not saying that this is definitely what happened, but it IS a possibility. Your 60 mile rides will tell.

 

BTW, after looking at the print and seeing that my problem was probably the kill switch, I exercised the switch and the problem went away. I regularly use my kill switch, so I've never had a problem since. I imagine that the PO's never used it much. Contact sets are usually designed so that they wipe each other as they close. That way surface oxidation is constantly cleaned away.

[Flyinfool]

The kill switch does have a wiping action on all of the contacts.

When I was having the problems the very first thing I did was to vigorously exercise the kill switch. That did not help at all. There is no sign of heat on any of the switch contacts or the plastic around them.

 

The more I think about it the more I think it is going to be a flaky wire or connector in the harness somewhere. The switch is definitely broken so I will fix that first, IF I can find one.

Tomorrow I will find out if my repair will hold at all. Bakelite is not real good to glue to, and then there is not much surface area to work with. I cleaned it and roughed it up as best I could and JB Weld is a pretty good epoxy.

[Big Lou]

I use the jb weld for boats

 

water something or another ,,it is white and will stick to plastic..

used brake cleaner first//.

learned the brake cleaner trick the hard way .. Rough it up with sandpaper and you cant chip it off with your pocket knife

clean clean fixed my radiator tube with it ,, got a new one now though

did work for 5 weeks straight

[Flyinfool]

Well it is not just the kill switch.

 

Went to head out for a test run to day with the kill switch jumpered out. I made it a whole half of a block and the same.

 

My emergency jumpers got me back home.

 

The only option left is a bad connection or a damaged wire SOMEWHERE.

 

Since it is intermitant, there is no sure way to test for the problem, so I now have to start designing and build my LED test board so that when it does intermit I can quickly look down to see which led is indicating an issue.

 

Did I ever mention that I HATE intermitent issues more than Big Tom hates SNOW.

[Yammer Dan]

Just cause you mad at the bike you don't have to start using words like that!!!

[pmelah]

so how many boards ya gona build

[ragtop69gs]

There's also the option of getting a bike they actually still make parts for .

[Flyinfool]

There's also the option of getting a bike they actually still make parts for .

 

I'm not old enough for that yet........

[Condor]

There's a couple of switches in the braking and clutch systems, and also the neutral safety switch that might be effected by viabration and heat. Kick stand switch??

[wolfrider]

Just some thoughts: Had a car once, a Pinto. I could drive it just fine for about 10-15 miles and then it would quit. Let it sit a few minutes and it would start right up and do fine for the next 10-15 miles then die. Found out there was rust floating in the fuel tank. When the car was running the fuel pump would suck the rust down until it clogged the screen. Car would die. Suction would end and the rust would float away till the next time.

 

A friend had a car where the coil would over heat and do that. When it cooled down, it would run again.

[OrlinEngh]

Hope you can find the problem so you can make it to Mt,Day.

But you know you could put it on a trailer and bring it to Mt,Day

Good luck

Orlin

[Flyinfool]

I am sure that this is electrical in nature.

If it were fuel related the tach would not instantly go to zero, and the cruise would not instantly shut off and it would still crank with the start button.

 

At this point I have the side stand switch jumpered, the kill switch jumpered, the tip over bypassed, the neutral switch bypassed and the issue is still there.

A bad coil or TCI would not show all of these issues at the same time.

The only thing left is a bad wire or a bad connector. everything else is either bypassed, jumpered or removed from the circuit.

But then it is getting worse. So maybe soon it will fail altogether so that I can track it down.

Bet ya never heard anyone WISH for a failure real soon........

[Flyinfool]

I am sure that this is electrical in nature.

If it were fuel related the tach would not instantly go to zero, and the cruise would not instantly shut off and it would still crank with the start button.

 

At this point I have the side stand switch jumpered, the kill switch jumpered, the tip over bypassed, the neutral switch bypassed, clutch switch jumpered, and the issue is still there. Every component that can give ALL of these symptoms at the same time has been removed from the circuit.

 

A bad coil or TCI would not show all of these issues at the same time.

The only thing left is a bad wire or a bad connector. everything else is either bypassed, jumpered or removed from the circuit.

But then it is getting worse. So maybe soon it will fail altogether so that I can track it down.

Bet ya never heard anyone WISH for a failure real soon........

[Snaggletooth]

Oh no!! This is gonna get ugly. Jeff is starting to repeat himself.

[GeorgeS]

The Barrometric Pressure Sensor , gets power from the " Ignition fuse " Same supply that runs to the TCI.

 

I know of one 1st gen, that had water, and Crud built up in the Rubber Cap, fitted over the electrical plug on that sensor. This build up caused high resistance, short to ground, dropping the voltage to the TCI unit.

Check the plug on the Barro pressure sensor.

 

------------------------------

 

Also, follow the cable from the Kill Switch, forward to behind the headlight, there is a pull appart plug in that cable, located somplace behind the headlight. Maby, --- that plug has a high resistance contact.

This would kill , or lower voltage to the Ignition system.

 

----------------------------

 

Have you checked the Main grounding point, located, Under the Upper Left side Fairing ??? 4 Black wires, connected to a grounding point there !!

Hard to get to, but be sure to check these. Grounded to a bolt, just left of battery on the upper frame member. Pull out radio, and the Inner material of the fairing compartment.

 

---------------------------

 

Have you checked the Battery Ground cable, point where grounded to Engine case, near the water pump ??? Pull out the bolt, and check for corrosion. at that point .

 

--------------------------

 

Do you have an Extra ground strap ( #10 wire ) from Neg side of Battery, to a ground stud ??

 

--------------------

 

Any chance that your battery, has in " Intermittent " Internal short, condition. ???

This would be a way out in Left Field, condition, but, it does happen

 

-----------------

 

Have you " opened up " the " Main Fuse " holder, ( assumeing you are still useing the OEM , main fuse holder )

Possibly the small #1 phillips head screws, that hold the " fuse element " in place have come loose. ( I have heard of this happening ) A rare condition, but it can happen.

Open up the fuse holder, and clean the fuse element. and re-install the small screws.

 

----------------

 

Have you checked, the " Plug " in the cable, that runs from the " pick up coils " up to the plug of the TCI unit. 5 wire cable as I recall. Plug located just about under your left knee, as you sit on the bike.

find this plug, clean the contacts, and check for loose wires on the male and female side of this plug.

 

----------------:detective:

[Flyinfool]

Oh no!! This is gonna get ugly. Jeff is starting to repeat himself.

 

DOH!!!!!

To much time in the sun.

 

George

Thanks for that, Checking all of the connectors was part of the next step, but I did not know where they were, you explanations with locations will help a lot.

 

Now if I can just post this once........

[Dano]

Problem with a contact in the key switch.......

[Flyinfool]

I do not think it is the ignition switch. The headlight, fan, and turn signals do not go out and they are all on the same contact. but then that brown wire out of the switch does branch out to 5 different places. Where ever that junction is located between the switch and the fuse panel may have an issue. I'll add that to the list.