A need to consult the brain trust

[abusive throttle cranker]

I bought my 1st gen as a non running fixer upper. I've taken the fairing off, the battery and coils out (to remove the TCI to a better location) and I have taken the headlight off temporarily to disconnect the anti dive units. Whenever Partzcrappy refunds my money I'll finally have Progressive springs ordered. Anyway- to the situation.

I have the carbs in but not the fuel line- nor is the electric plugged in to the pump. I connected the suspension control box but not the CB or radio or intercom. The TCI is connected of course and temporarily fastened to a fairing mount arm above and to the left of the carbs. I have a new Deka ETX-18 battery, new high tension leads and new spark plugs. All required connections are made.

First I turned the key to Acc. and the suspension seems to be good. A little air leak up to the left of the battery when the front has pressure but no matter- I'm going to Progressive springs and no air pressure ( I weigh 185). Then I crank it with no plugs in. The headlight is dim and the white indicator is on. And the spark is weak. I'm doing this in a darkened room to check for sparks jumping etc. This is done with the garage door closed and only a 40W bulb in the opener. No sparks- other than the plugs. Of course it spins good with no compression. So- whats the likely culprit here?

BTW I do have Earl's fuse kit but haven't installed it yet. I have no ATF fuses and I figured to try it with the old setup first. Too many variables already. I did install Earl's battery icon eliminator wire but I guess not correctly- the red light is still flashing.

I'd appreciate any ideas y'all may have. Oh ya- no fuses were harmed during this experiment.

[Peder_y2k]

I'm thinking what you are saying in all that text, is the bike has a weak spark at the plugs. If it seems weak, it could be the that the battery is supplying voltage to operate the ignition, the starter, and the headlight, and the result is the battery may not have enough amps required for all, resulting in the supposed weak spark. The headlight is supposed to go out when the start button is pressed, and this is by design. You can try the process differently, and that is by first pressing and HOLDING the start button down, then turn the key to 'on'. This will bypass the headlight, and give the ignition system more amps to supply spark, then you can release the start button to end the excercise. Be sure to fully recharge the battery first.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

'83,88

[abusive throttle cranker]

Oh....all that typing and I didn't say the headlight went out during start? It did so that subsystem is working well. And since thats the way its designed.........The battery is a brand new Deka- isn't that about as good as it gets?

[Peder_y2k]

Brand new battery does not mean it is fully charged when you get it. As the battery sits waiting for someone to buy it, it will gradually loose its charge, about 0.10v per day. Most new motorcycle (and car) batteries come with instructions to place a charger on them for some 24hrs. Then as you experiment, it uses up more charge. I suggest you charge it up using a motorcycle charger, or a charger with max. 2amp output.

-Pete, in Tacoma WA USA

'83,88

[Snaggletooth]

We gotta hook Peder up with a DEKA!!!

 

These things go right out of the box sitting at least 12.7 volts and I've never seen one fresh from supplier at less then 95% charge.

 

The DEKA's, as any quality AGM has the lowest discharge rate of any battery available. I've had them sit all winter and not drop over .20 of a volt without any tender or charge and that's with a 4 year old battery over several months.

 

Not knocking your advice Peder, don't take me wrong. Batteries are always suspect. But with the DEKA AGM's, even right out of the box, in most cases it will provide more power than the bike has seen is a while.

 

It's the DEKA AGM experience. They are a different animal.

 

As far as the weak spark, compared to some we don't have the CRACK that many expect to get. It does to the eye look to be a mild blue spark. I don't know if you're comparing it to a previous test or a first time test.

 

I have to ask how fresh are the plugs? When my '84 starts giving me static about starting I slap in a new set and it's good to go. With the correct gap and clean plugs it should be good.

[abusive throttle cranker]

The plugs are new fresh out of the box. As are the plug wires. And I've been wrenching japanese motorcycles since 1967. Seen some sparks lol. Been zapped more than once. I had to allow for the 40w light but still......

And the headlight is dim! Seriously dim! And the white indicator light is lit! Something is amiss as they say! But it did spin well- under no load its true.......

Also- later I hooked up the fuel pump and it worked well. I wanted to pump the old gas out and add fresh.

[Snaggletooth]

The white indicator would show that the headlight is out so I'd guess you have a poor connection or a pinched wire along the way.

 

Are both low and high beams dim?

 

I'm hoping Dingy pops in on this. He's got this headlight stuff figured out.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Snaggletooth

[bongobobny]

OK the white indicator means either the headlight is burned out or one of the tail lights is bad. There is a device that mounts on the top of the front fairing frame behind all the relays that detects a light out situation from the CDI and switches the headlight to high beam and lights the white light called the reserve lighting relay. It could be just a corroded connection to the headlight at the socket. I would remove the headlight connector and ohm out the headlight and then clean the contacts...

 

There is a set of schematics in the 1st gen technical section for you.

 

Also, ther ed light is for ANY error such as low hydraulic oil in resovoir, low battery electrolyte, low oil level, etc.

[bongobobny]

Oh yes, red light is also for low fuel,,,

[abusive throttle cranker]

Ahhhh ok........I didn't check the other lights at all. With the fairing off both turn signals/markers are disconnected. Nor did I flip the dimmer switch- tho the blue high beam lamp stayed dark.

Yes thats a good idea to check all the connections up there. Dielectric grease em too. I have used the grease on everything I have checked so far. But up front I just disconnected the anti-dives and left all else alone. I unmounted the headlight and left it hanging by the wires as I worked. Tried to avoid stressing it of course.

And I was unaware the red light indicated anything other than the battery.

[Gdserlin]

I think you still need to confirm that the electrical system is operating at full capacity. Cranking with no plugs does not really confirm that the amperage is there. The battery cables are always suspect unless upgraded. Take a pair of quality jumper cables and run the one cable from the negative side of the battery to a good grounding point on the frame. See if that changes the quality of the spark. I would also clean and inspect all of the connections on both sides of battery and fuse box.

[abusive throttle cranker]

Hmmmm ya I could run another ground. Can't hurt and may be informative. I've been over all the connections and fuses in the battery area and used dielectric grease on them all. Well....except the fuse holders.

[icebrrg3rd]

The computerized display panel should also show the headlight display icon when the white light is on (icon in the center position). This will also cause your flashing red light. What it is supposed to do is if your low beam (or high beam) burns out, it lights the other beam so you will have a light. Try flipping it to high beams, the blue light should turn on, your light should get brighter, and the icons and warning lights should go out. If your bulb is bad, replace and see if that works. Most likely, your bulb is good (test with a voltmeter/continuity tester) and your computerized system has a bad solder joint. Has happened twice on mine. There are threads on how to fix that, it's not that hard.

 

Ok, that's the help I can be, not sure about helping with the low spark issue...

 

-Andrew

[abusive throttle cranker]

Alright......I have been through all the junctions in front of the instruments. I have put my battery on my Battery Tender jr. and it is full up. All indications on the dash are good. No white light. Fuel and coolant leaks fixed. Try firing it and.........not much. It spins at a good rate- no problem there. Oh BTW I have drained most of the old gas (only a couple ounces remain) and added 3.5 gallons fresh. Half 87 octane and half is 91 octane. With full choke it'll fire. And stay running (barely) when I let off the starter button. But touch the throttle or cut the choke just a little and it dies. There is raw fuel outside #4. Probably from the fuel input line. And it appears more fuel is draining from the coolant plug on the side of #4? Is that even possible? No- it is not from the same source. There is dry crankcase between the 2 leaks!

I have had many carburetors apart in my experience. I assembled these and believe they were good to go. The diaphragms are good. So........I lean toward the conclusion that the weak spark is my problem. Any input is welcome of course.

 

Oh- one thing. Those little rubber vent hoses which go to atmosphere just below the heads of the sliders? Mine are plugged. Or at least I get nothing when I try to blow into them or suck on them. What are they? Should there be airflow thru them?

[Prairiehammer]

Those little rubber vent hoses which go to atmosphere just below the heads of the sliders? Mine are plugged. Or at least I get nothing when I try to blow into them or suck on them. What are they? Should there be airflow thru them?

 

Those "little rubber vent hoses" are carburetor float bowl drains. Follow the hose back to the carb body and very near there is a screw. Loosening that screw (on each carb body) should allow fuel from the bowls to run out the little hose. Empty the bowl into a clear container and examine the contents. Probably some sediment will be flushed out. In fact, turn the key to ON and listen for the fuel pump to click several times and while the drain is open there should be more fuel dribbling out. Do this for all four carbs, ie, flushing the old out with the new fuel.

As for not running except with the choke (enrichener) on, that is a classic case of plugged idle (pilot) circuit. Research "shotgun" cleaning method.

[Snaggletooth]

Oh- one thing. Those little rubber vent hoses which go to atmosphere just below the heads of the sliders? Mine are plugged. Or at least I get nothing when I try to blow into them or suck on them. What are they? Should there be airflow thru them?

 

Plugged at that point is good on those. Yep.

 

In the pic you'll see the bowl drain screw, the one on the right side with the arrow.

 

Loosen that screw and that opens the flow from the bowls through the black line you're talking about.

 

NOTE: Not a good time to suck on at line.

 

If you get fuel from that line, you have fuel in the carb bowl. If not, your plugged at the float needle or behind it.

 

Don't overtighten it when you close it.

[abusive throttle cranker]

Ok thanks Snaggletooth. I'll try that. I'm having trouble searching for the shotgun cleaning method. I have cleaned lotsa crap out of the (exterior of) idle adjustment screws. They probly haven't been touched in many years. I set them at 2.5 turns- which is more than the less than 2 turns they were at. The interior of the carbs is pristine of course- having had them apart. Including the floats and jets. Never flowed liquid thru the overflows however.

[Snaggletooth]

"Shotgun Cleaning" is using high pressure to blow out a port, jet, fuel circuit, whatever is clogged.

 

The idle circuit is the tough one to clean. Sea Foam or other cleaners have little to no effect as fuel does not move through that circuit, only air.

 

I'm not a fan of "Shotgunning" from the outside of the carb on this because if there is ANY amount ot debris inside that recess for the adjustment screw, it's headed for the worst place it can go. Into the hole. Best to try to blow it OUT of the body.

[Prairiehammer]

My method of "shotgunning" didn't utilize any compressed air. I used (a couple) canned spray carb cleaner and stuck the straw into the various exterior jets and ports and squirted away. Best to remove the air box and use a straw extension when spraying the jets at the top of the carb. The extension added to the straw allows the spray can to stay upright. Make sure to provide yourself with eye protection (carb spray burns like hell and it seems to find the eyes).

Also, blow out the pilot screw recess before attempting to remove the pilot screws. Spraying a bit of WD40 or such into the recess will help in lubricating the pilot screw as it screws out. Be aware there should be a small spring and tiny O-ring behind the pilot screw. Use the carb spray to blow those two things out if they don't come out with the screw. Be prepared to catch the little buggers with a rag or something.

Because carb spray may have a detrimental effect on the slide diaphragms, remove the slides and diaphragms before attempting cleaning with carb spray. You will need to remove the diaphragms anyway to get to all the jets and ports during shotgunning.

Here is a link to shotgun cleaning: http://vmax.lvlhead.com/tips/shotgun.htm

Edited April 25, 2013 by Prairiehammer

[stanG]

Dim headlight and white indicator... Most definately you need to resolder the connections on the dash electronics.

[abusive throttle cranker]

Ok thanks guys. I'm gonna tear into this today. But I can't get a ride to obtain carb cleaner till after 3 pm. Also I'm going to replace those little circlips on the fuel lines with hose clamps. I'm sure those clips gotta be substandard by now. Plus they're sunken into the grooves in the surface of the hoses. Gotta cure the fuel leaks!

[abusive throttle cranker]

I think I may have found my problem....... Check out this link I found in another thread.

 

http://vmax.lvlhead.com/tips/shotgun.htm

 

Go about 2/3 the way down the page- you'll see colored arrows 1, 2, 3. Click the picture just below that one. Does the Venture have jets as pointed to with the green arrows? Called Pilot Air One jet? Cuz mine doesn't! None nodda! What size are they? I suspect I need to buy some. Maybe it'll run then.

[Prairiehammer]

Yes, Venture carbs are virtually identical except for the venturi size and jet sizes. Same Mikuni family.

[abusive throttle cranker]

Ok great........but what size do I need? Its all stock. No big pistons, cams or anything.

[Snaggletooth]

Yep, the Air Pilot shows as part# 3G2-14231-34-00 (#170)