Advice on extractor tools?

[Snaggletooth]

I've got a bit of a battle going on with my bike. The clutch slave is blown out and I have parts headed my way.

 

This is one part I would never approach without a reason. It gave me one. It's just being difficult.

 

So with some concentrated effort, the proper allens and extensions, rust buster, a heat gun, hand impact driver, some swearing and sweet talk I managed to get the top bolt out. Badly rusted and danged if there weren't traces of Red Loctite on the threads. Prefect.

 

The bottom one is not working with me. Even with heating up the flange and bolt to 225 degrees it's not breaking loose. It's starting to strip, not completely yet, but it will.

 

So I'm looking for a back up plan for the fight tomorrow. I want to try the local auto part stores and check out their loaner tools.

 

Anybody familiar with this type of extractor?

 

http://www.sears.com/hanson-5-piece-bolt-grip-194-174-deep-well-bolt/p-00919857000P

 

I've always consider these to be good for regular hex head bolts but never tried to use one on an allen head.

 

What I'm dealing with is a 5mm allen bolt with about a 1/4" of head exposed but set way back in and hard to work around. Very limited space. Those that have replaced clutch slaves know what I'm dealing with. If I can find the right extractor to grip the outside I got a chance.

 

Opinions? Thoughts?

 

Thanks

Edited April 3, 2013 by Snaggletooth

[Dano]

Did you spray some soaker on there while it was still warm?

 

[dacheedah]

I would give it a shot of penetrating oil a few times and let it soak, then heat and give it some more to let it get in there. After that heat it again if you can turn it ever so slightly give it some more and work it in and out, oil, then walk away for a bit. More penetrating oil and see if you can heat it again and walk it out. Time can be your friend here.

[saddlebum]

What I have used on many occasions like this, is to find a torx bit just a bit bigger than the hex hole in the bolt. Take it to the grinder and just touch up the end so that the corners on it are sharp. Next assemble the bit, the bit holder and an extension together and then pound it into the top of the allen head bolt until it has cut its way in as far as it can go. The pounding will also help jar the bolt loose.

[kevin-vic-b.c.]

What I have used on many occasions like this, is to find a torx bit just a bit bigger than the hex hole in the bolt. Take it to the grinder and just touch up the end so that the corners on it are sharp. Next assemble the bit, the bit holder and an extension together and then pound it into the top of the allen head bolt until it has cut its way in as far as it can go. The pounding will also help jar the bolt loose.

 

I think the pounding is the key here but from what is described of location I don't think that is going to happen.

Liquid wrench brand anti-seize and heat.... impact if possible is only way here I think.

 

I would say that is my 2 cents but I don't have any pennies left.

[Snaggletooth]

Did you spray some soaker on there while it was still warm?

 

Dosed hot, then warm and then cold then hot again. Three treatments over 8 hours of trying to remove two yes (2) screws.

 

 

I would give it a shot of penetrating oil a few times and let it soak, then heat and give it some more to let it get in there. After that heat it again if you can turn it ever so slightly give it some more and work it in and out, oil, then walk away for a bit. More penetrating oil and see if you can heat it again and walk it out. Time can be your friend here.

 

Before the first attempt the bike idled in the gargage until the fan came to get some heat. Drained oil, pulled middle gear cover, sprayed with degreasr and then Deep Creep. Tried the hand impact with allen bit. Nothing. Gave it a dose of Blaster and let it sit a couple hours.

 

What I have used on many occasions like this, is to find a torx bit just a bit bigger than the hex hole in the bolt. Take it to the grinder and just touch up the end so that the corners on it are sharp. Next assemble the bit, the bit holder and an extension together and then pound it into the top of the allen head bolt until it has cut its way in as far as it can go. The pounding will also help jar the bolt loose.

 

The Torx bit trick I have used more I than care to admit. It works. But I have also busted a few bits inide the allen head several times. PITA to dig that out. with the bolt being where it is, not a good place to have that happen.

 

I started on this yesterday morning using only a hand impact driver with a 6" extention and my good Snap On 3/8 drive allens. I dressed the allen later in the day as it was showing some wear. Kept the end squared up

 

The hand impact, I have used for years. But today, for the first time it started to mushroom on the top. It got USED today.

 

The last thing I did before quiting tonight was mix a batch of the Acetone/Tranny fluid blend and soaked it with that.

 

With all the bragging lately on that mix the screw should be on the floor when I wake up.

 

But no comments on the extractors eh?

Edited April 3, 2013 by Snaggletooth

[robclark63]

Just took a look at those extractors...I just did a slave cylinder and if I can remember correctly those bolts are the round allens...I don't think that those extractors will be able to grip the bolt correctly?? or at least that is what I can see from the pictures. I was thinking about the tranny fluid fix. Hopefully that works for you. That is a tight area in there, all I was thinking when I did mine is I wished I had smaller hands.LOL Sorry I couldn't really help, but keep us posted. Good luck!

[Snaggletooth]

Just took a look at those extractors...I just did a slave cylinder and if I can remember correctly those bolts are the round allens...I don't think that those extractors will be able to grip the bolt correctly?? or at least that is what I can see from the pictures. I was thinking about the tranny fluid fix. Hopefully that works for you. That is a tight area in there, all I was thinking when I did mine is I wished I had smaller hands.LOL Sorry I couldn't really help, but keep us posted. Good luck!

 

Yep, they are the round head allens. Just came in from another heat & soak session with the trany/Acetone blend. Let that sit for a while.

 

Meeting a friend in a bit at his service shop to see what we can find in his tools. He's been in the repair business since the 70's and he has about every kind of extractor made. I'm hoping.

 

Kinda tight applies to the top bolt. That one did come out. No way to get any kind of tool in there if I'd had a problem with that one. At least there is a lil more room to work around the bottom.

 

I wasn't thrlled when I saw the red Loctite residue on the top bolt threads. PITA!

[robclark63]

Red loctight should only be sold by prescription only! LOL

[Snaggletooth]

Amen to that my friend.

 

Since I'm only the second owner of this bike I only have one person to blame it on. Or two, I know what Yammy shop did most his work. And I wouldn't put that past 'em.

 

Sad deal there is their best mechanic, an old fella, rides a V-Max and digs the Ventures.

But they only let him work on the watercraft, not the bikes. That sucks. I had some 20 something there tell me why my bike idled rough. The injectors were dirty.

 

I buy fork oil there. That's about it. Or a can of pop maybe. Nuttin else.

 

I gotta roll. Tool search is on.

[bongobobny]

Mike, even with the blue loctite those bolts finally break loose at the point you think either the head is going tom strip out or the bolt is going to snap!! Once you finally get that bolt off then the fun REALLY begins!! You're going to bend and contort that piece past frustration! You will walk away muttering to yourself and come back later and try again and the piece will practically fall out on it's own!! One of the tricks is to get the wiring out and away from the area...

[CaptainJoe]

Although I can't see what your doing, or the amount of space you've got to work with, If red Loctite was used, your probably going to have to use heat to get it loose.

 

 

I work with bulldozer hydraulics that are loctited and have to use and acetylene torch to heat the nuts and turn while they are hot.

 

 

you'd have to make sure you wash area down (dawn and water) to get rid of flammables have a fan or well ventilated area

 

I' start with a electric heat gun from HF and get that area good and hot.

 

If that doesn't work map gas, or, acetylene...

 

You can use slow running water hose and wet rag to keep aluminum parts cool ...

 

if you get the head of a bolt red hot you will have to quench it with a wet rag (head only) or it will deform. You want to heat bolt only If that's possible...

 

As your dealing with aluminum ... make sure you take baby steps (don't nuke it)lol

 

get a helper... one to cool and one to turn the wrenches...

 

Good luck...

 

replace bolt with a new one when you get it out and apply antiseize...

Edited April 3, 2013 by CaptainJoe

[Black Owl]

Concerning the extractor tool you asked about.

I have a set, and from my experience they do not work that good on round head Allen bolts.

[Condor]

I ran into a similar problem with the slave on my old '83. The head busted off one of the hex cap screws. It made it kinda difficult getting the slave out because of the 1/4" stud still left in the block, but after a lot of wiggling around, because I didn't know what the 'H' I ws doing, it finally did come out. I bought a set of stud remover sockets and they worked great. I think the removers would probably work on a hex screw too. The only real problem that could possibly arise is if the threads busted off right at the block...

[Snaggletooth]

Well, It's been a fun morning already. Went through my buddies selection and two of his mechanics boxes. No one had anything that would get a bite on the round head.

 

Stopped at NAPA and checked their stuff. Most was standard sizes and did not fit. One guy came out with a metric set of 3/8 drive but it was mixed SAE and metric. The metrics started for the 8mm and up.

 

So off to the tool supplies houses. Had guys running in circles trying different types and sizes of everything they had. Nada. No grip from anything.

 

So best bet so far is I borrowed a few tempered Torx bits that were already broke so very short. That may help in itself. Less stress that a long one.

 

Also got an inverted Torx socket that MAY fit with a hammer behind it. Last resort.

 

I think the biggest problem is the red loctite. As I found residue on the first bolt I'm sure it's on the second one to.

 

Been using the heat gun and getting up to 225 degrees on the head and flange. I dug out my propane tips and have one that throws a pretty focused flame so, last resort, I'll try that for some more heat. Not my favored approach considering the position of the danged thing and everything around it.

 

This is more fun that when I pulled my rotor off to do the engage mod.

 

So back at it a lil later on.

[Flyinfool]

According to the data sheets for red 262 Loctite, the joint must be heated to 250°C or 482°F in order to get it to release.

 

Thankfully I have not had to get in to do this job yet. Another trick that I have used to localize heat is to use an old or cheap Allen wrench and heat the Allen wrench to red hot while it is engaged in the bolt head. This will heat the bolt directly and not the surrounding aluminum as much as trying to get a torch directly on the screw head.

 

If you do use a torch directly on the screw head. Use the smallest welding tip that you can get your hands on so that most of the flame will be inside the screw socket. If the head of the bolt is getting red hot, you are way to hot and may be damaging the surrounding aluminum.

[BMW]

I've had some luck with these, you can get them from McmasterCarr. They are called SOCK IT OUT

 

http://www.mcmaster.com/#screw-extractors/=m5y7ga

[dingy]

Mike,

 

Considering it is the bottom screw, you should be able to get a direct shot with a propane torch.

 

I would suggest you heat the screw till it glows. The heat will conduct down the shaft and break the loctite seal. Let the screw then cool way down, the loctite will not reset, if at all for many hours.

 

Even if you overheat the slave cylinder it doesn't matter, you got another one.

 

Your next closest seal is the clutch push rod seal, in the block, behind slave cylinder. You will not be able, reasonably that is, dump enough heat into the block to damage clutch push rod seal. Huge heat sink around it.

 

Gary

[Snaggletooth]

UPDATE!!! No need to panic!! Got it!!

 

Did I type that out loud? I was talking to myself?

 

 

But the removal is done. Bolts out and slave is on the bench. I don't know which advice worked best, or at all. But I certainly appreciate every word offered. Thanks.

 

I did:

 

Heat with heat gun. 225 degrees

Several rust busters including the Tranny fluid/Acetone blend.

Heated "L" allen wrenches until red and inserted into allen heads.

Hand Impact with: 5mm Snap On bits. Torx drive bits, square end extractor bit.

Punch to shock the bolt.

Inverted Torx Socket 3/8 drive. (Cornwell E14)

16 Oz Ball Pean

2 lb Sledge

Assorted extension 3/8" & 1/2".

Bandages, burn cream, gum and same smokes.

 

I'd killed the bolt. Stripped totally out. Nothing would bite. Gary had warned me about the result of that happening and I made every effort to avoid it. It happens.

 

But on the edge of packing it up for while I made one last desperate shot at it.

The inverted Torx socket I had borrowed looked like a slim shot. Felt way to small to have it fit onto the round head. Got lined up with a 1/2" extension behind it and grabbed the 2 lb. sledge. I didn't tap it. I whacked it. And whacked it a few more times to satisfy myself. I tried it and it had a bit of bite. Not much so I whacked some more.

 

When I felt like I had a decent, not great, bite I tried with the 3/8" ratchet. No budge. But it didn't slip.

 

You get I was a lil frustrated? It's do or die time. I took the 1/2 drive breaker bar. One of my favorite tools on like 3/4 ton trucks. Never used on a bike before.

Hooked it up and gave a pull. No budge. So I really bored down on it and I felt a slip. Checked the feel on the allen and it felt solid. Gave it another hard pull and it started to turn out. It's over. It's out. I'm breathing normal again.

 

Only took a few minutes to figure out the twist and turn to remove the slave from it's hiding place. (I'm good with puzzles) It's on the bench now.

 

So..... again. Thanks to all for the advice and suggestions. Well that all adds up to encouragement. I was needing that.

 

Now waiting for the new slave to hit my door and I'll be rolling again.

 

Mike

Edited April 4, 2013 by Snaggletooth

[ragtop69gs]

:clap2:

[Snaggletooth]

:clap2:

 

Thank you sir.

 

Cigar?

[CaptainJoe]

Well done sir...

Edited April 4, 2013 by CaptainJoe

[pofarm]

I've had some luck with these, you can get them from McmasterCarr. They are called SOCK IT OUT

 

http://www.mcmaster.com/#screw-extractors/=m5y7ga

 

I was going to suggest the same thing. They work quite well on rounded out allen heads.

[robclark63]

GREAT!! I love the feeling you get when something good happens when you have been working on something so long...That is the feeling, and sometimes smell, of SUCCESS!!!

 

[jachuck49]

I had the exact same problem...except I'd broken the "Ball end" of a bondus allen off in the socket of the bolt.Needless to say ...I was screwed!!! I work maintenance and have to think outside the box ( as we never seem to have the right parts when you need them). Anyhow,what I'd done was to find a socket (a 12 point) that would,when driven onto the HEAD of the bolt,act as an exterior remover.I'd put it on an extention and drove it on.The impact of the hammering it on helped to free it up and I was able to turn it out. This was after I'd spent about $50 on allen wrench sets to do the job.I'd done this as a last ditch try as everything else I'd tried failed...what the heck,you have nothing to lose.Lots of luck!