Interesting report on Harley and BMW

[SilvrT]

Even mentions Yamaha, Kawasaki, Honda ...

 

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/business/200035711.html

[AngryAmish]

I'm surprised a high percentage of HD owners have said that "About one in four owners of Harleys reported experiencing a major problem in the previous four years". Usually being so proud to own a HD, they won't admit it !

[XV1100SE]

....When asked whether, considering everything, they would buy their bike again if they had to do it over, 75% of Harley owners said definitely yes, closely followed by 74% of BMW owners and 72% of Honda owners. By contrast, only 63% and 60% of Yamaha and Kawasaki owners, respectively, were as emphatic in this subjective measure.

...

Bikes equipped with ABS are 37% less likely to be involved in a fatal crash, according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. This critical feature is now standard on many high-end models and adds only a few hundred dollars to the price of more basic bikes - an investment Consumer Reports believes to be worthwhile and potentially lifesaving.

 

I'm surprised by the low percentage of Yamaha owners that would buy again. Perhaps because for the past few years they haven't been doing much of a refresh on their bikes?

 

The point of ABS saving lives I'm not sure about. I don't like anti-lock on cars (or traction control)... not sure about on the bike having never ridden a bike with ABS. But if Yamaha is looking to compete in more areas... they better be keeping up with their competition.

[XV1100SE]

Here is a link to the Consumer Reports page - http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2013/03/motorcycle-reliability-survey-shows-what-goes-wrong.html

 

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2013/05/most-reliable-motorcycles/index.htm

 

List of 2012 bikes with ABS - Yamaha has 2.

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/04/guide-to-the-2012-motorcycles-and-scooters-with-abs.html

 

ABS article - http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/04/the-most-valuable-motorcycle-feature-antilock-brakes.html (required by all bikes in Europe by 2016)

Edited March 27, 2013 by XV1100SE

[SilvrT]

The point of ABS saving lives I'm not sure about. I don't like anti-lock on cars (or traction control)... not sure about on the bike having never ridden a bike with ABS.

 

I can't quote anything re: saving lives but I can tell you that ABS on my Wing certainly saved me from going down. When you hammer the brakes HARD, it does not lock up the wheels ... you just come to a stop FAST!

[XV1100SE]

One of the Consumer Reports link says....

 

Most motorcycles have separate brake controls, one for the front wheel, and one for the rear. So if the brakes are hit too hard or with the wrong front/rear distribution, a wheel can lock and cause the bike to lose control and eventually fall. Alternatively, if the brakes are squeezed too gently, the bike may not stop in time to avoid a crash. ABS can work in two ways--reduce brake pressure if a lockup is impending or increase pressure again when the bike is under control. It allows the rider to intuitively apply the brakes with full force, without holding back due to concerns of locking up a wheel and alleviate a split-second judgment call.

 

For most riders, avoiding lockups of the front or rear would certainly reduce accidents. For 1st Gen'ers though... why de-link the brakes? Are linked brakes less beneficial than ABS?

[SilvrT]

For 1st Gen'ers though... why de-link the brakes? Are linked brakes less beneficial than ABS?

 

I think it's because they want to be more like a 2nd genner without actually owning one ...

[XV1100SE]

There have been times when I've locked up the rear... and managed to let off enough to stop the skid and control steering. I like having control... but if ABS acts "invisibly" on the bike... it would eliminate having to guess at how hard you can hit the brakes without locking it up. I wouldn't want to feel it pulsing like you can on a car.

[saddlebum]

I'm surprised by the low percentage of Yamaha owners that would buy again. Perhaps because for the past few years they haven't been doing much of a refresh on their bikes?

 

The point of ABS saving lives I'm not sure about. I don't like anti-lock on cars (or traction control)... not sure about on the bike having never ridden a bike with ABS. But if Yamaha is looking to compete in more areas... they better be keeping up with their competition.

I agree. On every vehicle I owned I have always disabled my ABS and Traction control. Traction control on rear wheel drive vehicles really sucks. If you want to punch the throttle to swing the back end so you can pull it out of a front wheel skid, It cant be done because of the way traction control cuts your engine and applies brakes to the free spinning wheel. With regards to ABS I have lost count of the number of times a customer got in a rear ender and complained had it not been for ABS they would have stopped in time. It is all geared to accommodate those who do not know how to drive or handle an emergency situation. With regards to ABS on MC's I can't really comment as I have never driven one with ABS but I suspect I would still prefer to have full control over my brakes as I see fit.

[saddlebum]

One of the Consumer Reports link says....

 

 

 

For most riders, avoiding lockups of the front or rear would certainly reduce accidents. For 1st Gen'ers though... why de-link the brakes? Are linked brakes less beneficial than ABS?

My personal reason for delinking my brakes is because I have had a couple incidents were due to loose sand on an asphalt road, I could not stop without locking up the front wheel despite using only the foot pedal no matter how light I applied them, and the wheel would slide out side ways forcing me release the brakes and to gun it through the intersection. I guess maybe this is one isolated case were ABS may have been OK although I am inclined to think that the ABS would have just released the brake same as I was forced to and I would still be forced to gun through the intersection hoping no cars came the other way.

[Power Trippin]

I think it's because they want to be more like a 2nd genner without actually owning one ...

 

 

No.....we just needed something to do while waiting for everyone else to catch up!!

[SilvrT]

My personal reason for delinking my brakes is because I have had a couple incidents were due to loose sand on an asphalt road, I could not stop without locking up the front wheel despite using only the foot pedal no matter how light I applied them, and the wheel would slide out side ways forcing me release the brakes and to gun it through the intersection. I guess maybe this is one isolated case were ABS may have been OK although I am inclined to think that the ABS would have just released the brake same as I was forced to and I would still be forced to gun through the intersection hoping no cars came the other way.

 

I have not had actual experience of this situation (gravel, etc) but I've heard of others who have and according to them, this is one of those kind of situations where ABS really shines. The difference between ABS releasing the brake and the rider doing it is the ABS does it very quickly, when necessary, and then applies the brake again whereas the rider would be inclined to release either too long or all together.

 

As for ABS in a cage, from personal experience I prefer it in slippery road conditions, especially snow and ice.

[XV1100SE]

... I guess maybe this is one isolated case were ABS may have been OK although I am inclined to think that the ABS would have just released the brake same as I was forced to....

 

For those with or experience with ABS.. given the example above, how would ABS react on gravel? Is ABS "above" linked brakes?

[SilvrT]

had it not been for ABS they would have stopped in time

 

HA! a typical "cop-out" for their lack of control. How can any "average" person determine that unless they repeat the exact same situation with and without ABS.

 

[SilvrT]

For those with or experience with ABS.. given the example above, how would ABS react on gravel? Is ABS "above" linked brakes?

 

Above? meaning what?

 

They are two different things.

[Eddie]

I would bet money that know one could stop there RSV faster than I could stop my Roadglide. ABS is a great thing to have on a motorcycle. When it comes to a panic stop they can't be beat. They are not like cars.

[SilvrT]

I would bet money that know one could stop there RSV faster than I could stop my Roadglide. ABS is a great thing to have on a motorcycle. When it comes to a panic stop they can't be beat. They are not like cars.

 

I agree and let me ask you a Q ... do you feel brake pulsation or shuddering when you grab a fistfull of brakes?

[timgray]

from the article about ABS on bikes....

 

 

"and adds only a few hundred dollars to the price of more basic bikes"

 

A few hundred dollars as in, $999 is only a few hundred dollars. Every single bike I look at that has ABS is $1000 more than the non ABS version. And yes, I want ABS, I have seen it's advantages first hand. Bubba Blackwell, the motorcycle stunt guy was playing around on a BMW with ABS before a show and was upset he could not get it to skid no matter how hard he tried. and seeing someone do a full boat panic stop leaning int oa turn on wet roads and not end up eating trees is what sold me.

 

But it's still a highly expensive option.

[SilvrT]

 

But it's still a highly expensive option.

 

Only if it IS an OPTION

[Barrycuda]

I think it's because they want to be more like a 2nd genner without actually owning one ...

 

 

Uh oh, now you've done it....wait till Yammer Dan sees this.... You gonna be in T-R-O-U-B-L-E

 

[Miles]

Okay, I am forced...forced I tell you, to jump into this fray. I must concur with my collegue from British Coumbia when it comes to ABS brakes.

 

I have owned a lot of vehicles over my many years...on this planet...not to mention vehicles I have had on other planets.

 

My experience shows that I would much rather have ABS brakes in a modern car, especially if it is a front wheel drive car, or an all wheel drive car. If it were an older American made rear wheel drive car, I may elect to go without the ABS brakes, and luckily for me, very few older American made rear wheel drive cars offered ABS brakes.

 

I have also owned...and ridden hundreds of thousands of miles...on ABS equipped motorcycles, i.e., my '97 BMW R1100RT, and my 2003 GL-1800, and my 2004 GL-1800, and my 2005 BMW R12GS, and my 2012 Yam Super Tenere'. That is not a complete list, but it references several different brands and models.

 

I can tell you with 100 % certainty that given a choice...given how I ride...I would choose an ABS equipped bike every time over a non-ABS bike, if ABS was offered on a bike I wanted to own. Example...the 1974 Norton 850 Commando that I am wanting to buy right now does not come in an ABS version, and I can accept that.

 

When it comes to riding a bike with ABS, versus...riding a bike without ABS, many tests have been done by very qualified professional riders, and the only way that a non-ABS bike can come close to stopping at a distance even close to what an ABS bike can...is if the rider knows well in advance that this is the spot he is supposed to apply the brakes, and this is the spot he is supposed to attempt to stop at. But those are not real world conditions. Knowing in advance when to apply a brake, or how hard to apply the brakes, so that you can stop at a pre-ordained spot, is not real world riding. All the professional riders admitted that an ABS equipped bike can in fact stop at a much shorter distance than a non-ABS equipped bike...when ridden on the roads, in real world riding conditions.

 

Fact, there is no human being that is capable of stopping a non-ABS bike as fast as the same rider can stop an ABS bike...when the sh*t hits the fan and a herd of prong-horned antelope jump out in front of you in Interstate 90 in Eastern Montana.

 

I have personally been in that exact situation, one week after buying my '03 Wing...with ABS, and the bike paid for itself right then and there.

 

Yes, linked brakes are different than ABS brakes. And...linked ABS brakes are different than non-linked ABS brakes.

 

Also, different manufacturers have different brake control feedback when hammering an ABS brake lever or foot lever. Some manufacturers are very smooth and accurate when giving feedback to the rider through the front or rear brake controls. Whereas others are very pulsating, and not as accurate. It also depends on the road surface, whereas dry asphalt is a much better surface to hammer your ABS brakes than say...loose gravel. In loose gravel a BMW will pulsate with an on and off action, and it will make you wonder if the bike is indeed going to stop before you and the bike fly off the 200 foot cliff...believe me...I know...and the bike did go off the cliff.

 

Honda has a pretty darn good ABS system, but...(and I am very mad that Honda made this change)...it was an easy choice when I bought my '03 and '04 Wings, because in the '01 thru '05 model Wings, you had a choice of buying a standard Wing, or an ABS Wing...and then you could add any and all the crap you wanted to pimp out your bike.

I always chose an ABS equiped bike.

 

But...urgggg...on the '06 thru '13 Wings, to be able to get an ABS equipped bike, Mother Honda forces you to become a Pimp Daddy, because the only way to get the ABS on the later Wings, is first...you have to get the Premium Sound System bike (level 1), then you have to get the Comfort Package bike (level 2), then you have to get the Nav Package bike (level 3), and finally you can get the ABS bike (level 4). The only level higher than that is the level 5 bike, which is the Air-Bag equipped bike.

 

Personally, I can live with their Premium Sound System bike, although I rarely ever listen to my external speakers, as I listen to everything thru my helmet headset. But I cannot accept their Comfort Package bike, because it means a Heated Seat...along with Heated Handgrips. Now I always install heated handgrips on every bike I own, but experience and a lot of testing has proven that a heated seat is the stupidest thing ever invented for a motorcycle. Why, because you do NOT want to apply heat to the contact pressure points of your butt. You want to heat everything else on your body, but not the contact pressure points of your butt. Next, the Nav Package is Honda's poor excuse for a GPS. The problem with that GPS is that it is NOT fully operational while the bike is in motion. There are some things that can only be operated when the bike is stopped, and the trans in neutral. That is bad for someone like me, as I do everything at speed. I understand that it is meant to be a safety item, so that other riders do not play with their GPS while going 100 mph, but when I can buy a Garmin that allows me to do anything I want at 100 mph, then I would not buy the Honda Nav package.

 

But Mother Honda will not sell a new 1800 Wing, with the best safety item available today...the ABS brakes, unless you agree to become a Pimp Daddy, and buy a bike that has all their crap on it, that does not work as well for serious long distance riders, as the aftermarket stuff we can buy. Bad Honda...Bad...

 

The Yamaha ABS system has the best rider feedback of any bike I have ridden. It is smooth, accurate, and works well enough on road or off road to be a good addition to a Super Tenere'.

 

If Yamaha ever does update the Venture...to things like fuel injection...I hope they also add ABS to the bike, as it is well worth the extra money spent.

 

Now, as to the silly (yes, I did say silly, and I won't call it other names) idea of dis-connecting the ABS feature of a car that came with ABS brakes, what you will find is that the brake system on a car that was made as an ABS brake system, but is now disconnected...will in fact operate much worse than a car that has normal...non-ABS brakes. I can understand turning off the traction control...and a lot of cars...and some bikes...allow you to turn off or on the traction control system. There is no argument there. But to disconnect an ABS system...in an attempt to make it a normal braking system...you would be wrong to assume that it is that easy, or that the brakes will operate as a normal system, by taking the ABS system out of the loop.

 

Read 100 tech manuals, and 99 of them will agree with this. Either buy a non-ABS vehicle, or buy an ABS equipped vehicle, but do not...do NOT...disconnect the ABS system from a vehicle that came with ABS, because it will feel worse than a car that "had" power brakes, but then the power brake booster went out, so now you have to mash down on the brake pedal to get the car to stop.

 

Think what you will, but I have owned, and still own...ABS equiped bikes and cars, and they can in fact stop at a much shorter distance than a non-ABS vehicle can.

And as SilvrT said, when you nail the brakes on an ABS eqippped bike, the bike stops fast...no slidding...and you save your life.

 

 

[CaptainJoe]

No brainer...ABS brakes would be great on our bikes....

 

As far as "only 60-65% would purchase another Yamaha"... I must be in the majority..

 

Been buying yamahas since I was 16.

 

Have no intention of buying a Harley, BMW....

 

Would own a Goldwing properly equipped, but all those options lumped into four packages turn me off... Now the CB, Airbag and ABS... they should be standard equipment!

[SilvrT]

 

Would own a Goldwing properly equipped, but all those options lumped into four packages turn me off... Now the CB, Airbag and ABS... they should be standard equipment!

 

The Wing is such a perfect bike you can't improve on it so Honda had to do something to give buyers choices ....

 

Seriously though, ABS should be the FIRST option, not the last ... geeeesh. But if you look at it from their standpoint (Honda's) .... they make more money the way it is now and that's all they're concerned about.

[Miles]

 

Seriously though, ABS should be the FIRST option, not the last ... geeeesh. But if you look at it from their standpoint (Honda's) .... they make more money the way it is now and that's all they're concerned about.

 

 

You are right...the ABS should be the first option, like it was back in the '01 thru '05 years. I have looked at the current situation through Hondas' eyes, and they pizz me off because of their money grubbing ways. If I were the manufacturer, I would want my riders to be safe, so they could come back and buy more bikes over the years, than to have less safety, and rely solely on the next generation to buy the new Hondas, because Honda allowed the current generastion to buy bikes that were less safe than they could have been.

 

I was soooooooo mad when I had to buy my '06 Wing, and I refused to be a Pimp Daddy with all of Hondas' crap on it. I ordered one without ABS, because I refused to have a heated seat or their GPS. Luckily for me, years of riding the '03 and '04 Wings trhat had ABS, taught me how to ride the Sport-Touring 1800 GL, so by the time I bought the '06...without ABS, I was prepared. Still would have liked to have had ABS, but I am too much of a howdy doody freckle faced kid to be a pimp daddy.

 

[Barrycuda]

Ok ok... A real CRAZY question... Is there a way to actually ADD an ABS system to the ventures? What's involved?