Fuel Injecting a 06 Venture

[Squeeze]

Guys...thats a helluva lot of work and money (between $3750 and $5850!) to gain 13 HP....Thats the quote on the V-Max EFI page...

 

I went and looked at the other websites...and I gotta say...MEGASQUIRT II? Couldnt they think of a better name?

 

Sounds like the title of an adult film!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't look a the pure Numbers. 13 hp makes it 13 Percent more Power. and 13 Percent more Power out of Engine like ours is a huge gain.

 

If you do the Work and engineering on your own, you do not spend that much Money. More like 1000 USD.

 

As for the Name of the "Megasquirt-"Game ... ask Bowlin and Grippo about how they came up with it. :rotf::rotf:

 

I'm sure you do not understand why People are doing this.

 

It's not only about the Gain, it's also about "i can do that" or "i've done that on my own". And once you got such a EFI straightened out, you never ever will be afraid of an EFI. This is upcoming Technology. You will find it sooner or later on every Motor which has a Sparkplug. Also every newer Diesel-Engines works the same Way. You learned the Lessons early and get your Money back later in Live.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

I'm sure you do not understand why People are doing this.

 

It's not only about the Gain, it's also about "i can do that" or "i've done that on my own". And once you got such a EFI straightened out, you never ever will be afraid of an EFI. This is upcoming Technology. You will find it sooner or later on every Motor which has a Sparkplug. Also every newer Diesel-Engines works the same Way. You learned the Lessons early and get your Money back later in Live.

 

Afraid? Well who said I was afraid?

 

I aint skeered!

 

Dude...my Ultra (HD) has EFI...and I can tell ya...when its working, it works great...but the techs have never been able to get the idle correct ever since I went to gear drive cams...the mechanics blame it on the particular EFI system that my bike has..the newer ones went to a different system.

 

Thing is, if you roll your own, cuz you just want to..., thats great, but what I'm saying is those guys that are selling the systems, I mean, cmon...does somebody really wanna spend nearly 6 thousand dollars for around 13 HP? Say it was 20...hell...say it was 30HP...would I pay nearly 6 large for that? Uh....take a guess.

 

You can tinker all you want Squeeze...and I admire your abilities, knowledge, and skill, and your motivation...but if any of the guys on here think that once somebody gets it perfected, they can make a million bucks selling these after-market units to us touring riders...think again.

 

Ok...racers and streetfighters might have some motivation to do this...and of course, tinkerers and inventors...but I just dont think it has any real market value...not that you planned on selling them anyway.

 

Well..good luck...and remember...shaving pounds off the bike has the same result as adding horsepower. And its a LOT cheaper.

 

 

 

 

 

[Squeeze]

Well, i don't think this Thread is the right Place to discuss this Part of the Issue, but i will give you some of my Thoughts...

 

You say, the Mechanics can't get the Idle right? If you would have the Knowledge, YOU would show them how to get it fixed.

 

Second, last Time i talked with the Guy who manufactures the complete EFI Systems, he has had sold more then 60 Systems to various V4 Bike Owners all over the Planet. Believe it or not, there are Folks on Earth, which do not give a damn about what you want to spend, they open their Wallet and pay what is needed to acheive their Goals. Their Attitude might be different to yours, the may have a different Mind about (in case of the US mostly green) printed Paper.

They buy a 1500cc Motor with around 190 hp and go for a Ride. Some Weeks later, they come back and say fine ... but it's not enough, i want more Power. The Guy who invented the EFI for our Bike, did it not with the Intend to make Money out of it, he did it because he wanted to MAKE it. That's why Mankind takes some Steps into the Future, Money or Attitude. He has made a Living out it, after getting his Master Degree in mechanical Engineering, but nevertheless, he is still one of us.

 

Third, once the Exchange Rates between Euro and USD will be better, the Price in US will go down significant.

 

Fourth, i'm sure you do not known what your talking about. Costs of reliable Motortuning are expensive. Once you get past first or second Stage Tuning, which would cost you around 2 Grand, you will have to spend 2 Grand on every 3 hp you try to Gain. Did you read that "try to" ?

 

Fifth, shaving Pounds of a Bike is cheaper ? Ok, the first Pounds might be easy, but once you have undone all unnecessary Items, how to go on ? I can tell you, Carbon Fibre Parts are a Lot more expensive than some mechanical Parts. Best and easiest Way to gain a better Power/Weight Ratio is Bio-Tuning. This means the Rider has to loose Weight. Lots of Weight.

[pegscraper]

Guys...thats a helluva lot of work and money (between $3750 and $5850!) to gain 13 HP....Thats the quote on the V-Max EFI page...

 

I went and looked at the other websites...and I gotta say...MEGASQUIRT II? Couldnt they think of a better name?

 

Sounds like the title of an adult film!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm with you frankly. I totally and completely fail to see the point of this, and I alluded to that way back in my first reply. But the guy is looking for some information, and I happen to know some of it. So I guess I'll tell him what I know and let him do with it what he wants.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Well, i don't think this Thread is the right Place to discuss this Part of the Issue, but i will give you some of my Thoughts...

 

You say, the Mechanics can't get the Idle right? If you would have the Knowledge, YOU would show them how to get it fixed.

 

Its a matter of ECM re-mapping...and I dont wish to spend the megabux to buy the equipment to fix it. I suspect its a temperature sensor...but without the right diagnostic tools, I'm stuck.

 

Second, last Time i talked with the Guy who manufactures the complete EFI Systems, he has had sold more then 60 Systems to various V4 Bike Owners all over the Planet.

Wow...60...thats like...well...thats like 1 for every 4 COUNTRIES...LOL...not bad...lets see...if the guy is making a 50% markup on each one, I think the guy is well on his way to making...not much.

 

Believe it or not, there are Folks on Earth, which do not give a damn about what you want to spend, they open their Wallet and pay what is needed to acheive their Goals.

Uh...yep. Ask any BossHoss rider what it costs to go fast...REALLY fast.

 

 

Fourth, i'm sure you do not known what your talking about. Costs of reliable Motortuning are expensive. Once you get past first or second Stage Tuning, which would cost you around 2 Grand, you will have to spend 2 Grand on every 3 hp you try to Gain. Did you read that "try to" ?

When did I say its cheap to do reliable motortuning? In fact, I admitted that the racers might be interested in this stuff...

 

 

Fifth, shaving Pounds of a Bike is cheaper ? Ok, the first Pounds might be easy, but once you have undone all unnecessary Items, how to go on ? I can tell you, Carbon Fibre Parts are a Lot more expensive than some mechanical Parts. Best and easiest Way to gain a better Power/Weight Ratio is Bio-Tuning. This means the Rider has to loose Weight. Lots of Weight.

We were talking TOURING bikes...not drag bikes, not flat trackers, not superbikes. Touring bikes...and you can shave pounds, like I said, off the bike ...and the rider too! Or..you can spend bucks and get what ya want.

 

 

 

 

[Squeeze]

Its a matter of ECM re-mapping...and I dont wish to spend the megabux to buy the equipment to fix it. I suspect its a temperature sensor...but without the right diagnostic tools, I'm stuck.

 

Wow...60...thats like...well...thats like 1 for every 4 COUNTRIES...LOL...not bad...lets see...if the guy is making a 50% markup on each one, I think the guy is well on his way to making...not much.

 

...

 

You can test a Temp-Sensor with every cheap digital Meter. Temp-Sensors only go by Resistance up or down when getting hot. Not much of a Challenge.

 

I think 60 Sets in two Years are a Lot. You may not forget, we here in Europe have extensive Pollution Laws in most Countries and it's hard and expensive to pass the Tests.

 

I know were the ECU and a Lot of other Parts are coming from. He's not making 50 Percent. Take a Look on the EURO/USD Exchange Rates and the US Dealer doesn't deal and work for Heaven's Sake and a warm Handshake only.

 

As for all the Rest, as i said, this is not the Thread to discuss this and therefore i Rest my Case here.

 

If Don or a Mod would split the Thread, we can go on if you like.

[PGunn]

Ok all I want to say is I am doing this because I want to not so much for the gain but because I want to see if it can be done and how hard is it to do, call it a learning experience and I don’t expect everyone to understand why but just to take the time and watch and see if and how it can be done. So far it has been a lot of questions on my part and a ton of help on others parts which I totally appreciate and could not have gotten nearly as far as I have. As for cost well the throttle bodies have cost me a whole $175.00 including all the sensors I need to connect it up for a fully working system. So far the only issues I have left to resolve is what intake boots are needed and how to mount them and after that the microsquirt is an additional $400.00. Now I know there will be issues right out of the box, I expect them I also fully realize this is not a plug and play system that is why I didn’t spend 4 or 5 thousand dollars on an aftermarket system. I am looking at a system that for less then $1,000.00 and some time and a trip or two to the dynamometer that one person can install it and be all set. Now for the guys who just think it’s a total waste of time well then I guess you have voiced your opinion and thoughts on this and that’s it and I’m sorry you feel that way. When it is done and I fully plan on taking this to the end I’ll be more then happy to help anyone else who wants to do the same thing and supply all the information I have gained.

One other thing this thread has so far has been viewed almost 1,000 times now I’m sure some have looked at it and are thinking what a total waste of time and others keeping track on what is he doing how is he doing it and what is needed to do it. So far in the time this has been going on I have learned a lot on this subject and keep learning as time goes on and just as a side note the big mystery of fuel injection isn’t all that big and with the right parts will work on anything that burns fuel.

[Squeeze]

Can you post a Pic of the bottom of a TB ?

 

I'd like to see the mounting Diameter to the Manifolds and the Throttle Plates.

[PGunn]

Here are the pictures you asked for and if you need more or better let me know. What year are you guys talking about with the gen1?

[Squeeze]

Well, when is reread my previous Posting, i've made a wrong Statement. That was what my Gut said me and therefore it expected this somehow.

 

I said the TB's are 'unround' on the lower Connection.

 

Well, they are round, but inner and outer Diameter are not centered. The inner Middle is not in the Middle of the outer Diameter. Sorry, for my false Quote.

 

Therefore, an Adapter has to be unround to fill the Gap between a round Manifold and the round Air Duct through the TB.

 

1Gen means the early Ventures, from 1983 to 1993. They have bigger Carbs with 34 mm Boring. Your '06 has only 32mm Carbs. Because the Casings of the 1Gen 34mm Carbs and the 35mm Vmax Carbs are the same, those Manifolds of have a larger mounting Diameter with 42mm and 35mm inside. They may fill your Need much better than the Manifolds you have on the Bike. At least on the upper half of the Manifolds.

 

You can make Spacers which fill the Gap between both Parts.

 

I sincerly suggest to get to your Bike, take Carbs and Manifolds of and take Pics and Measurements of the Intake Ports on the Heads and the Bolt Pattern and Sizes. Then make a Mockup out of a Sheet of Metall or thick Aluminium with the correct Angles and Bolts. Then get some Manifolds out of a 1Gen and all four Rubber Boots for the TB's.

 

It will not work out only with Theory in Use. Your working here in 3 Dimensions and this usualy causes some unexpected Outcome in first Place.

[PGunn]

Ok some good news I found a shop that might be able to get the intake boots I need. The place is called Sudco (http://www.sudco.com). Some of you guys might be interested in this place also as they deal in carbs, mounts and parts. Now from my first email to them they replyed that they will need the measurements for the bolt spread on the flange, the bore openings, the difference between the original mounting and the fuel injection mounting some of which I already have. Now I am not sure if the internal is going to match the throttle bodies and I will check on that and if necessary see if I can get it to match but it’s a start and so far a lot easier then trying to connect different intake boots together.

If anyone can help with the measurements for the gen2 intakes could you let me know? I need the bolt spread on the flange and the opening in the coupling at the flange and the distance from the flange face to the center of the bore where the carb mounts. I am really trying to avoid tearing mine apart in this weather, we’re getting 6 to 8 inches of snow tonight and my shed has no heat.

[pegscraper]

Here is a link to the carb swap article I wrote. In it you will find a drawing of the adapter plates that I used. That should give you most of what you need. The size of the intake ports is actually 30mm x 40mm. I made the oval in the adapter plate just a bit bigger so it would be sure not to overhang into the airstream. For making an intake flange, you may want to make it a hair smaller.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/carbswap/

 

Yes, unheated garages are a drag. I have one too.

[PGunn]

I dream garage I have an 8 x 12 ft shed that I have to fight for space with my wife who thinks it is the never ending, never filling room. It started out as the bike shed only but quickly became the "Hey you have room can I put...." place. Next summer it is getting heat and electricity this waiting till it warms up and run extension cords is not working in anyway for me. The heat I'm planing on putting in is coming from a propane RV trailer heater. I figure if it will heat a 28 foot trailer during the winter it should be no problem for my shed. Just put two propane bottles outside, frame and cut the opening, run the duct work and insulate I "should" be all set.

Once again thanks for the information.

[CrazyHorse]

PGUNN here is another route you might take for fuel injection. Using your CV carbs and converting them to fuel injection.

 

 

http://roadstercycle.com/yamaha_vmax_fuel_injector_cv_car.htm

[Squeeze]

PGUNN here is another route you might take for fuel injection. Using your CV carbs and converting them to fuel injection.

 

 

http://roadstercycle.com/yamaha_vmax_fuel_injector_cv_car.htm

 

Jim, i found this Site Moths ago and took a close Look to it. imho, this a bad Joke and way too much Money spent for a poor Technique. The Way the Injector are mounted, is causing a real bad Mixture Builltup. It works, yes, but at a terrible Degree of Efficiency. I've tested a Lot of Injectors for Fuel Delivery and Flow and for what i've seen when the Injectors blow into a Glass Bowl, there is no Way for a proper Mixture in low and middle Air Flow Conditions.

[CrazyHorse]

Ok thanks Squeeze.

[PGunn]

Jimbob5 Thanks for the info but I am in too deep at this time to switch to that type of course. I am open to any suggestions so if anyone comes across anything I will check it out to see if it is doable

I guess it is time for an update on this.

I am still working on this project but it is now at the point of being a piece by piece type of thing. I found a deal on a couple of air boxes to modify so I can mount the injectors to them. I am in the process of making 2 adapter plates out of 1/8 aluminum one for each side to mount the throttle bodies to the air boxes. I will be using 1/8 rubber for gasket material between the air box the plates and the throttle bodies. This will save on the overall height difference between the carbs and the throttle bodies of about ½ to ¾ of an inch. I will also need to pick up the part that connects to the front of both the air boxes so I can mount the sensors needed for the intake to it.

I think if I mount the throttle bodies in this manner I should have enough of a difference between the original carb height and the throttle body height that I can use the Honda throttle body mounts by trimming off the bottom of them and trimming the outside diameter a little to fit into the Venture (older style) carb mounts. If that works I will have to make some inserts for inside the Yamaha mount to transition from the Honda mounts to the Yamaha mounts to help with the air flow.

Once I have that completed I will start working toward the adapter plates / flanges to mount everything to the intakes in the heads. I feel that by doing it in this manner I will end up with the correct angle between the injector bodies that should closely match that of the original carbs and I can then finish the linkage and support struts.

[Squeeze]

This sounds like a Plan :):)

[Dano]

Sometimes you have to do something just because you can. That's how we get our great inventions!!!