Fuel Injecting a 06 Venture

[PGunn]

I am looking at converting my 06 to fuel injection and I have a few questions some of you might be able to help with.

The first thing is carb spacing on the Venture. Now if anyone has removed their carbs from the bike (second gen) or has a spaer set sitting around and if you could post or send me the spacing outside to outside and inside to inside, (center to center) on the side to side and front to back measurements that would be a big help. I want to see which FI throttle body setup comes the closest to that spacing so mounting will involve the least amount of custom work on spacing.

Second is how are the coils triggered to fired and is the firing order still odd fire. is there a trigger wheel or sensor somewhere i can't find.

Here is what I am planning on doing and I am open to any help / suggestions given. So far I have purchased a set of R1 throttle bodies ($120.00). These are from a bike putting out 135 hp at 13,000 (?) rpm and I think the fuel and air flow should be more then enough for a 1300 cc, 98 hp, 5,000 rpm engine and the wiring harness ($50.00). The throttle body I bought came with all the sensors still in place along with the injectors and wiring. The only sensors I need to add is the air flow sensor and a water temp sensor. I’m looking at installing the air flow sensor it in the tee fitting right before the air boxes that sit on top of the current carbs. The water temp I am going to purchase a second water temp housing and see if there is enough room to drill and tap it for a second temp sending unit.

I am going to go with the Microsquirt ECU ($400.00) to handle fuel delivery only for now but it will handle a ton of other features also.

So far the only issue I’m running into is the throttle bodies, I may have to go with a set off another manufacture so I can adjust the spacing correctly as the ones I bought have a fixed spacing between each pair.

Now I am going to be working on this when the weather isn’t so good and the bike could be down for a few days at a time. As I work along I’ll keep you guys posted on progress and problems. Also if anyone can foresee and issues that are already know please let me know as I really don’t want to invest a bunch of cash on a project that isn’t going to work.

 

Thanks....

[CrazyHorse]

I'm looking to do this also. Couple of places to look. http://www.wildbros.com/EFI.html these guys make a Vmax fuel injection it might work on your bike if its modified. Or use the injection you have with this http://www.megasquirt.info/ kinda of make your own. Another guy here named Squeeze from Germany is working on one also.

[Squeeze]

Hi,

 

which Year are the R1 Throttle Bodies you purchased ?

2000-2002 or 2006 and later ??

 

I don't know much about the Distances on a 2Gen. But i'm sure, fitting your 38 or 42 mm Throttle Bodies on a 28 mm Inlet is Waste of Time and other some other Resources(Money also). You definitely need other Intakes to provide full and solid Airflow without creating any major Turbulence's underneath the Throttle Plates.

 

You may look for Pegscraper here, he has modified the Intakes of his early 2Gen to fit a V-Boost System of a Vmax.

 

You have to take a close look on the Fuel Pump you intend to use. My 2003 Set is designed and driven at 2.8 bar 41 PSI Pressure.

 

I'm working on fitting a 40mm R1 Body set to 35mm Vmax Intakes. This takes major Work, even if these Bodies are four Single Bodies.

 

 

The Microsquirt isn't a bad Chioce for the Electronics. I'm not that familiar with it, but for what i've seen and read it fills our Demands quite well. I go with another Computer which i purchased for cheap Money dued to a cancelled Project :D

[pegscraper]

What diameter are the throttle bodies you've gotten?

 

The front to back spacing of the stock carbs is 80mm on centers. The side to side spacing is tough to give because the left and right carb banks are not parallel. They tip in towards the top. About the best I know to give you is the measurements at the tops of the intake boots as they set on the engine. Inside to inside is 125mm, outside to outside is 200mm. These are from the inside lip of the intake, where the carbs touch. The stock carbs are 32mm inside dia.

 

The plugs are triggered from a crank sensor on the left side of the crankshaft. Firing order is 1-3-2-4. Best to get a shop manual for more information on that stuff.

 

My only question is why? What is the point of going to all the trouble to fit FI? And I don't want to hear all the theoretical advantages of FI over carbs. I know all those. What I want to know is what are going to be the real world results and differences when it's finished and done. What differences are you going to be able to tell when you're on the road riding it? The drivability of these bikes stock is excellent. They're not cantankerous at all. They start right up and run and go, in any temperature in which you care to ride. Is it really that much trouble to have to operate a manual choke?

[pegscraper]

A 28mm inlet, Squeeze? Specifically what area are you referring to as the "inlet"? The cross section of the intake port at the intake boot mounting surface is a 30mm x 40mm oval with an area equivalent to about a 38.5mm diameter circle. I'm assuming he'll fabricate his own intake boots to mount the TBs to the heads. I'm doubting that the port cross section area in the heads will be a problem.

 

Am I correct, you're fitting your R1 TBs to your V Max, not your Venture? I'd be curious how you're fabricating the intake boots.

[Squeeze]

A 28mm inlet, Squeeze? Specifically what area are you referring to as the "inlet"? The cross section of the intake port at the intake boot mounting surface is a 30mm x 40mm oval with an area equivalent to about a 38.5mm diameter circle. I'm assuming he'll fabricate his own intake boots to mount the TBs to the heads. I'm doubting that the port cross section area in the heads will be a problem.

 

Am I correct, you're fitting your R1 TBs to your V Max, not your Venture? I'd be curious how you're fabricating the intake boots.

 

Well, i thought the newer 2Gen had only 28 mm Carbs at the Throttle Plates. This is the 'Inlet' Diameter i was referring to. Maybe, i was mistaken in this and all 2Gen have 32mm Carbs.

 

The Way i've read the initial Posting, i was assuming he was NOT intending to build his own new Boots between Heads and TB's.

 

 

Yes, i'm working on a Set for my Max right now, but if i succeed, this will fit in my '93 Venture also. All Thoughts and Design are based to fit on both Bikes. My main Goals are to get some more Horses(15 to 20 hp) out of the EFI and bigger Air Intake and to lower the Fuel Consumption (15 Percent at least).

 

I am fitting the 40mm TB's to a Vmax Intake. I fabricated four Slices on the Lathe, 52mm outer Diam. 42mm inside. Middle Boring is not the same Point. The inner is 2 mm out of Middle, so, there's 3mm Material left on the smallest Point and 7 on the other Side. Then i welded them on the stock Intakes and milled the 35mm Boring out to 40 mm Diameter. There is a Lot of Work left. The Fuel Rail is to be done completely new from 35x45 mm Aluminium. The Throttle Plate Levers need intense reengineering and the Intake Side of the TB's also ...

I haven't given that too much tought yet, because i want to go with special Design inside the Airbox, which allows me to lift the Intake Rubber Boots on higher RpM. This is a stolen Idea from the MV F4 Tamburini and the latest R1 has this Feature also. I know what it will look like, and it's tought through, but there's nothing on Paper nor any closer Measurements taken by now.

[pegscraper]

I see. You're machining and welding make your own intakes. It undoubtedly can be done. It just seems like a lot of machining work. I suppose there's not much choice though. I don't know any other way to do it. I have a lathe and mill in my shop, and I don't know that I would feel like doing that. But I'm no master machinist by any means. And you want to make TWO sets of these things? Wow. I suppose the second set would go much quicker though, as you have all the setups figured out by then.

 

The '96 - '01 Royal Stars have 28mm carbs, and a smaller intake cam to match. But the '99 and newer RSVs and '05 and newer RSTDs all have 32mm carbs, and a slightly more appropriate intake cam.

 

I would think he'd about have to make custom intakes for that. Otherwise, you're right, the stock intake boots (of either size) would be too restrictive for 38mm or bigger TBs. I'm not sure how they could even be mounted in the stock intakes. The TBs are just physically too big for them.

[Squeeze]

I can assure you, this is a LOT of machining and fabricating.

 

As always, if you start to design something from scratch, on a white blank Sheet of Paper or a clear Computer Screen. This isn't a Problem at all, but if you want to change basic Measurements or change the Way the Throttle Plate Lever hook up to each other you may get a serious Problem...

 

Just because, all Guys over the World have no Money to spend and they put on all Products just the Material they need for their Purpose. If you want to bore a Hole in a Part of the Lever to convert the Linkage from Inline4 to V4, you just simply bore in the Air, there is no Meat left at any Part involved.

 

Especially when you talking about these HyperSport Bikes. Each Parts is not one Gram heavier than it has to be ...

 

I'm thinking about just make a Plan of the Fuel Rail and give it to Friend to get it milled on a 5-Axis CNC Mill. Just because of, i don't want to do this twice on my Mill by 'hand'. Even if i have digital Measure on all Axis's on both, Mill and Lathe, it's not so much Fun and a Lot of Time spent. On the other Hand, i thinking about buying a small 4-Axis CNC Mill on my own since beginning of 2007. Maybe its getting this Way.

[PGunn]

Jimbob5

Thanks I will look into these …..

 

Squeeze

The R1 throttle bodies are off a 2006 but I see some issues with them already.

1) Dual throttle plates and the top set are motor driven. The motor driven set can be removed and once the shaft is removed and those holes can be plugged. A lot of unnecessary work so I am more then likely going to look into another set.

2) Fuel pump I am going aftermarket to get the needed pressure along with a pressure regulator if one is not included with the throttle body set. For the fuel return I am going to pull the tank and have one added on where the tank vent is located but on the other side with a slightly longer tube into the tank.

Thanks for the info….

 

Pegscraper

Ok to answer the why question first… No real answer here other then I want to see if it can be done, how hard is it to do and could a swap from parts already out there be done. I also would like to see what the difference on a dyno will be and like you I hate getting into the theory stuff also. It’s like the Hypercharges I just put on, why because I wanted to.

Now to the other questions…

1) Ok the intake boot distances are what I was looking for and I should have been clearer on that, I am looking at trying to keep the stock boots for now. I’ll have pull mine down to get in there and see how it is setup and go from there. I was not looking at machining out adapters but it is not out of the question. I have a small machining center in my basement and with 15 years in the aerospace industry as a machinist I have a good idea as to what is going to be involved, a true labor of love…J. I will also have to look into other boots from other bikes, why build if you can buy?

2) The crank sensor is the best to use thanks for the info on that and it is still an odd fire engine so the Microsquirt is the best ECU in this application from what I have read in a dollar for dollar comparison. The Microsquirt is made by the same people who make the Megasquirt but comes preassembles and is weather tight.

Thanks for the info also….

 

Ok now from what I am seeing from both Squeeze and Pegscraper is this is not going to be as easy as I first thought and is going to require some more thinking on my part but I still have not given up yet.

Now for a couple of more questions:

It looks like you both are in agreement on the intake boots not working because of their design. Is this because of the bend in the boot? I would like to try and get the throttle bodies to mount like the carbs do or is this way off base? Making a linkage setup was my first thought when I looked into this and I already have a few ideas but I want to get the bodies mounted before I travel that road. I am going to do this step by step and build / modify as I go so I am not looking at getting this done anytime real soon. I don’t want to miss any riding time because I’m in the middle of something and can’t get the bike out and my wife is dead set against buying a second bike…..

Now for the throttle bodies themselves will the ones I have as far as the inside diameter of the bore goes work (CFM air flow)? I have no set reason to use these other then I thought they would work. But after getting them I am seeing drawbacks to them, the dual throttle plates and that the bodies are made in pairs. I am getting the feeling the set driven by the motor (top set) would have to be pulled and the shaft holes plugged. No big deal but is it worth the effort when another set of throttle bodies without these features would give more adjustment as far as fitment goes be the better way to go?

[Squeeze]

.........Is this because of the bend in the boot? I would like to try and get the throttle bodies to mount like the carbs do or is this way off base? ...

 

 

No, it's not because of the Bend, it's because of the different Diameters involved. The Bike's Boots have a inner Diameter(Airflow) with 32mm. The R1 TB's have what? 42mm, maybe 44mm. When you try to suck Air through this Setup, you will create massive Turbulences were the Diameters hit each other. These Turbulence is very counterproductive and cause a massive Drop in Power. You want to have a smooth Flow through the Intake, even if little Turbulences are good for better Torque in lower and middel Revs. So you need to fabricate Adapters which go between the 42mm TB's and the 32 mm Boots. Well, there's nothing which can't be done, but it should mechanically work and give you the best possible Outcome. When you work with longer Adapters the overall Lenght of the Intake Duct is changed and this may result in in good Torque but Lack of Power on the upper End. As you may know, Space is a limiting Factor and if you need more Space for the whole Intake, you can't fit Airbox and Tank anymore in their designated Places.

 

..........

Now for the throttle bodies themselves will the ones I have as far as the inside diameter of the bore goes work (CFM air flow)? I have no set reason to use these other then I thought they would work. But after getting them I am seeing drawbacks to them, the dual throttle plates and that the bodies are made in pairs. I am getting the feeling the set driven by the motor (top set) would have to be pulled and the shaft holes plugged. No big deal but is it worth the effort when another set of throttle bodies without these features would give more adjustment as far as fitment goes be the better way to go?

 

Injection is another Thing than Carbs. CFM Airflow is not the primary Question as long as you have a Bit more Diameter on the Throttle Plates, the bigger, the more Power you can bring up on the 2Gen Venture with sharper Cams. But there are Limits. Going too big means slow Airflow in lower Rpm and therefore bad Mixture build up , less Torque and more Consumption. The upper Plates on your Set are to limit the Airflow under such Conditions, to control the Amount of Air and create a better Mixture.

 

Primary Thing on FI is Gas Flow. When you consulted the Microsquirt or MegaSquirt Website, you might have seen several Calculators on this Issue. The Injectors are measured by the Amount of Fuel going through them and how much Power the are able to Feed. The Injectors you have should go well on your Venture.

[Guest msegelle]

Can I ask why you would want to do this prodject?

What are the benfits of the FI over the carb setups?

 

Thanks just wondering out load.

 

Mark

[PGunn]

Squeeze

Ok this is getting a lot clearer now that I have someone to work with who knows what problems there are. So what I need to do is dump the R6 bodies keeping the injectors and find a set with the inside bores closer to the stock carb size which makes total sense now that I understand what you mean by the turbulence inside the boots with the difference between the bore sizes and what I thought would work and what I need to make it work. And yes space is at a premium here under the tank and I am hoping to use the stock intake but I have also thought about making up 2 air boxes out of aluminum and using them but that’s down the road.

With the injector sizing that part I did see that info on the Megasquirt site and did some quick figuring which was another reason for going to the R1 as it came the closest with out going overboard on the injector size. So now it’s back to matching up a throttle body to the boot size. I just wish I had asked these questions before I got started it would have save some time.

Once again thanks for the info and clearing the waters a little bit more….

 

Msegelle

The benefits are I can tune the system with my laptop setting up the fuel flow according to what I will be doing long trips or just putting around. It will also increase gas mileage and power (HP) of the bike. Some have seen increases of 10 - 15 hp and around a 15% (5) increase in mpg on similar size bikes and with gas now at 3.00+ a gallon I’ll take the 15% and it will pay for itself over time. I am trying to keep the total cost under $1,000 using parts from other bikes and right now the biggest cost is the ECU at $400.00.

[PGunn]

The plugs are triggered from a crank sensor on the left side of the crankshaft. Firing order is 1-3-2-4. Best to get a shop manual for more information on that stuff.

Pegscraper

I have looked for the crank sensor and can't find it in the service manual I have a copy that is all pictures in a PDF format and can't be searched can you give me some direction on its location (page) or what are the color codes on the wires so I can chase it down in the wiring diagram?

I did find the throttle bodies from a Honda VFR 800 should work they have a 35 mm bore and come in a somewhat squared pattern and with a little feathering of the stock boots should work but I will know more once they get here.

Once again thanks for the help.

[Squeeze]

I'm not Pegscraper, but i can tell you, the Cranksensor is behind the Stator Cover front left on the Motor.

 

These VFR800 TB's won't help help you much. They have 36 mm Boring, which are the smallest TB's i've seen and researched a Lot of them, but the come in a dual Case. Maybe you can cut them in half and add some turned Adapters to match the Throttle Lever to the new Width.

 

You will have to remove the Idle Air Valves in order to get both TB Casing closer together. You will have to get the VFR Rubber Boots. They have out of Round Connection to the Manifolds. The Distance in between the two Halves is 92mm, between front and rear TB is 298mm and not square, if i remember right. When you got a Set of the early TB's, the Injectors will manage 225 cc per Minute at the stock 2.5 bar, that would be enough for your Bike.

 

 

Nothing that can't be done, but a Lot of Work.

[PGunn]

Squeeze

Thanks for the info I finally did find the pickup leads and it would have been nice if Yamaha had labeled it something other then pickup.

 

Throttle body mounting

Left to right

I received the VFR 800 bodies today they are out of a 2004. I found the side to side should not be a huge deal but I have said that before. I separated them as far as side to side goes and the linkage connecting them can be either modified or remanufactured and the connecting tube for the fuel rails can be shortened if I need to or just make a new one to the correct length. The side brackets mount onto bosses which makes the location a positive location with no movement once they are bolted into place. I will more then likely have to remake the side plates to hold the bodies in position and with the offset I can incorporate the bend into the mounting plates to make up for this.

 

Front to back

Now from the distances that Pegscraper gave me earlier the distance on the front to back mounting is 80mm and I just did a quick measurement of the throttle bodies and it is close but by no means dead on comes out at approximately 95.25mm and splitting the difference means that the location for each body is off by around 6.625mm. This means the bodies are going to be closer to the heads by this amount also. My question here is what would be the easiest way to correct / make up this distance and would it interfere with the heads by contact? Just as a why I am asking all these questions is it is 13 degrees F outside and that makes working any of this out on my bike almost impossible.

 

Boots

I have 1 of the VFR boots and when you say I will need to use them because of an out of round connection. I don’t see the outside diameter of the body where the boot mounts being out of round and the inside looks the same as other throttle bodies. Can you give me more information on this? Also how would you use them or would I have to make some mounts that bolt to the heads?

 

Injectors

I just compared the difference between the Honda VFR 800 injectors and the Yamaha R1 injectors and the Yamaha injectors have a longer reach (?) then the Honda ones. So it looks like I’ll have to find an injector that has the same output specifications as the R1 injector but are dimensionally the same as the Honda injector.

[Squeeze]

Hi,

 

there is no Need for other Injectors. The VFR has 120 to 130 hp. Thats twenty to thirty Percent more than you Bike has. They will fit fine for your Application.

 

 

The 2004 TB's are different to the ones i have had. The earlier VFR has CQ30A Boddies, the later Have CQ35A. Both are made by Keihin.

 

Sorry, i can't help you on the newer ones.

[PGunn]

Squeeze

You have been a huge help and I really do appreciate everything you have done so far. Thanks for the info on the injectors I have to slow done and check stuff before running off looking at other avenues for solutions.

Now still more questions. With using the 35mm bodies I would have liked to use the OEM boots but with the spacing difference being 6.625mm per boot I am already getting the feeling that I will not be able to use the OEM boots no matter how much pushing, stretching, pulling I try to do.

What I have thought of is just removing the material off the intake mounting face on the boot but that would never work the flange would either be too thin or totally gone. Now a possible idea would be get another set of boots cut the flange and excess material off and purchase an aluminum flange and the re-mount the boot to the new flange there by making up the difference by removing material from the boot until the boot is in the correct location. This would also give all the adjustment I would need to get the bodies into location for linkage mounting and what not.

Just to clear it up a bit remove the material from where the original flange was attached to the boot so if I was to measure from the bolt face side of the intake boot flange back 6.625mm and remove this amount this “should” give me the clearance I will need by allowing each boot to move outward giving me the spread between the bores that I will need. I could then just use a clamp to reattach the boot to an aftermarket flange along with something like this to help seal it:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Motorcycle-Intake-Manifold-Repair-E6000-Black_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35597QQihZ015QQitemZ250214543382QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

I am already looking at a set of aftermarket boots that I can hack up for testing. Let me know what you think or if there is an easier / better way to go.

[pegscraper]

The kinds of ideas you have for mounting intake boots will work. It's how I did my carb swap, which required different intake boots, and my heads didn't have the correct mounting holes or even blank bosses to use. I shaved 1/8" off of the bottom of the intake mounting flanges and made adapter plates out of 1/8" steel. I've used both plain steel and made a few sets for others from stainless. The intake boot flange is now just shy of 1/4" thick, and is still strong enough to do the job. It's not like they have to hold much. I would have liked to have grooved the new surfaces for O rings like the V Max uses, but I didn't have the tooling to do it. So I sealed things with silicone. These pictures should help.

 

I have shoved 35mm carb bodies into the stock intake boots designed for 32mm carbs, but they don't fit well and the neck right below the carb is really too small for the larger carbs anyway. More appropriately sized intake boots with a modified flange to fit is a better way to go.

 

That intake repair stuff you're looking at does say "not meant to repair cracks that go all the way through". It might not do what you're wanting to do with it. I'm real curious what bike that intake in the main picture is from, too. Anyone have any ideas?

[PGunn]

Pegscraper

Thanks for the mounting info. I see what you did and understand why now from what your saying and Squeeze has also said is stay away from the stock OEM boots because of the mismatch in size and look for something that will be the correct fit for the diameter of the bodies I am using…

 

Ok so it’s back to see what I can find in a boot that has the correct upturned angle, or close to it, and that could be modified if necessary to be mounted to an aftermarket flange.

I also did some more research on that stuff and it dissolves in gasoline!!! I will not be using it but I did find something that looks more like what would be needed called Seal-All and from what I saw you can use this stuff in / on your gas tank if necessary.

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/reviews/SealAllGlueReview.htm

Thanks Guys.....

[PGunn]

Pegscraper

The boots in the pictures what size are those and what did they come off of?

[pegscraper]

They fit the 32mm carbs. They are the same thing you have on your '06 Venture. My bike came with only 28mm carbs and the intakes have a different bolt pattern. I needed to make these adapter plates to mount the 32mm intakes and carbs on my engine.

[PGunn]

I thought that is what they were but figured I better ask. I also looked at the boots off a V-Max and eliminated them right away because of the way they are made.

 

I'm looking in a few places one is in China that makes aftermarket adapters. I need to get the bolt spread and the port opening dimensions of the head and the distance from the face of the flange back to the centerline of the bend to see if they either have or what it will cost to make them. Another limiting factor will be how many have to be ordered but I'll worry about that once I get the info I need to see if they have anything close to what is needed and machining them to get what is needed is an option still.

It looks like they start with an aluminum casting they then machine it including an O ring gasket and then they attach a coupler to it for attaching the throttle body. In this case the only problem would be I think is the coupler not being for a throttle body and the internal shape being wrong but one workaround would be to use the ones that are for the throttle bodies being used. Or just order them without a coupler and use the OEM one.

[pegscraper]

I wonder if the intake boots from a 1st gen might work for you. They have 34mm carbs, and would also accept the 35mm carbs from a V Max. The carb bodies are the same there, as far as outside diameter goes. Only the internal bore is different. The outside diameter of the carb body where it goes into the intake boot is 42mm. The carb centerlines of these are vertical. They don't tip in towards the top like the 2nd gens do. When these intakes are installed, the tops of the intakes are level. I don't know if the adapter plates might need to be wedge shaped to tip them in a little to make things fit under the tank or something.

 

I have those dimensions of the bolt spacing and port opening somewhere that I used for making my adapter plates. Let me go dig them up.

[Squeeze]

I have no Boots for a 1Gen at the Hand, but i have Vmax Intakes and a Motor sitting on Bench and in the Corner of the Shop. Might take some Pics if you like to have them.

 

Vmax Max Boots are 42mm round on the Carb Flange Side, like Pegscraper said. When i remember right, the Connection of the older Keihin TB's was 44 mm but, like i said, unround. I think, the Vmax Boots won't fit this 2Gen, because of the Hight over the Intake Ports when mounted on the Heads. The 1Gen Boots are a bit shorter than the Vmax Ensemble, if i remember right. This would give you more Room (10mm??) in Height.

[Guest tx2sturgis]

Guys...thats a helluva lot of work and money (between $3750 and $5850!) to gain 13 HP....Thats the quote on the V-Max EFI page...

 

I went and looked at the other websites...and I gotta say...MEGASQUIRT II? Couldnt they think of a better name?

 

Sounds like the title of an adult film!