Hybrib RSV/1st Gen/Vmax project

[bongobobny]

...and yes, 1st gens ARE faster!

[dingy]

Its not a 1st gen Venture motor, It is a 1st gen V Max motor going in there.

 

It is sort of a VMax motor, but not really.

 

Yamaha never went to a 1300 block with the 1st gen VMax. This is a 1300 1st gen MKII Venture block. Pistons are stock Venture. The head decks have been milled 0.040" in order to increase compressin to about 12.5:1, this will compensate for using Venture pistons. Heads & cams are 1st gen VMax. Carbs will be from a 1st gen MKII Venture, but rebuilt to VMax specs. #2 carb body will be replaced with a carb body from a VMax, so I can use choke setup from VMax's. #2 has an added boss for mounting thumb lever.

 

This bike will probably not have VBoost unit that Tweety has. Fairly sure I don't have enough room to get it in and get air intakes under the Royal Star fuel tank. This one may have NO2 in place of VBoost.

 

Clutch is modified with double diagphram springs and all fiber discs are full size.

 

All side covers are from an RSV. Required some serious McGyvering to shift shaft.

 

Motor has rotor & single pickup from RSV with a sprauge style starter clutch. Use of rotor is made possible by Ignitech TCI as rotor lobe pattern is different from 1st gens. I didn't want to use an RSV TCI, nuff said about that.

 

Exhaust system will require custom front & rear down tubes going into a Marks dual 2 into 1 headers. Not sure what muffler cans will be. Will be much shorter though than 1st or 2nd gens, due to no saddlebags, longer cans wound be fugly.

 

Other than that, motor is pure stock.

 

Gary

[Tieftoener]

It is sort of a VMax motor, but not really.

 

....

 

Gary

 

Thanks, Gary, for the detailed layout.

I am planning a rework of my '84 with a motor swap (sick of missing 2nd gear and will take the opportunity to finally make it "pretty" with a new paint job). Initially I was contemplating a swap with a 2nd Gen RSV motor, assuming that they included better components all the way around, thinking it was a continuously improved motor with 30 yrs of "lessons learned" being applied. But, it seems that there are complaints of the clutch, gear ratios, the different shifter linkage setup, and a less aggressive cam setup in the RSV motors. I knew about the different rear exhaust ports, but it didn't really bother me as I need to replace my rusted out collector and down tubes anyway. Nonetheless, I think the shifter setup alone makes me want to go with a Gen 1 MKII motor and VMax heads, as you've so graciously helped lay out.

 

Anyway, I will stop this verbal vomit and move my topics to a new thread for my project Unfortunately, I haven't found much in my searches about the real in-depth logistics and issues in doing a motor swap, and this thread has actually helped A LOT. I'm a detail guy and like to have a clear plan ahead of time Thanks!

[bongobobny]

 

Other than that, motor is pure stock.

 

Gary

 

:rotf::rotf:

[dingy]

Thanks, Gary, for the detailed layout.

I am planning a rework of my '84 with a motor swap (sick of missing 2nd gear and will take the opportunity to finally make it "pretty" with a new paint job). Initially I was contemplating a swap with a 2nd Gen RSV motor, assuming that they included better components all the way around, thinking it was a continuously improved motor with 30 yrs of "lessons learned" being applied. But, it seems that there are complaints of the clutch, gear ratios, the different shifter linkage setup, and a less aggressive cam setup in the RSV motors. I knew about the different rear exhaust ports, but it didn't really bother me as I need to replace my rusted out collector and down tubes anyway. Nonetheless, I think the shifter setup alone makes me want to go with a Gen 1 MKII motor and VMax heads, as you've so graciously helped lay out.

 

Anyway, I will stop this verbal vomit and move my topics to a new thread for my project Unfortunately, I haven't found much in my searches about the real in-depth logistics and issues in doing a motor swap, and this thread has actually helped A LOT. I'm a detail guy and like to have a clear plan ahead of time Thanks!

 

 

I can't think of a single reason to want to put a 2nd gen motor in a 1st gen. The obstacles to doing this are far outwieghed by any gains, and I can't think of any gains.

Gary

[Big Lou]

Beeuuutiiful

 

when does the kit come avaliable////

[lsutley]

Motor has rotor & single pickup from RSV with a sprauge style starter clutch. Use of rotor is made possible by Ignitech TCI as rotor lobe pattern is different from 1st gens. I didn't want to use an RSV TCI, nuff said about that.

 

Gary,

 

What is needed to convert a MKII to the single pickup? Will the Ignitech most of us have work for this conversion? I am using one of Dano's modified rotors now. Would or could this work with a single pickup?

[bongobobny]

I can partially answer that! The later MK2's had single pickup, can't remember if the switch was '89 or '90.The only change was substituting just one pickup instead of 2, and different TCI. Other than a change in the front suspension not related, that's pretty much the only difference. Maybe they should be called MK3's.

 

I know Gary makes up the aftermarket TCI's for the later MK2's as well...

[rickardracing]

Gary, I am not a fan of the styling of the Gen1, which is why I have a 2007 RSV. But I like what your doing with this bike. Very interesting. The motor looks sweet, VERY nice job! I look forward to hopefully seeing this next year at MD.

 

 

 

Randy

[dingy]

I can partially answer that! The later MK2's had single pickup, can't remember if the switch was '89 or '90.The only change was substituting just one pickup instead of 2, and different TCI. Other than a change in the front suspension not related, that's pretty much the only difference. Maybe they should be called MK3's.

 

I know Gary makes up the aftermarket TCI's for the later MK2's as well...

 

Almost correct Bob. 1990 was the intro of a digital TCI to the Ventures & VMax's. The 4 pickup coils, 2 coils each in 2 separate housings were replaced by a single pickup coil. The rotor was also changed. I think the stator cover remained the same.

 

I wasn't aware of a suspension change in 1990 though.

 

Gary

[bongobobny]

Front forks and guts are different...

[dingy]

Motor has rotor & single pickup from RSV with a sprauge style starter clutch. Use of rotor is made possible by Ignitech TCI as rotor lobe pattern is different from 1st gens. I didn't want to use an RSV TCI, nuff said about that.

 

Gary,

 

What is needed to convert a MKII to the single pickup? Will the Ignitech most of us have work for this conversion? I am using one of Dano's modified rotors now. Would or could this work with a single pickup?

 

The practical way to do it is to obtain a rotor from a 90-93 Venture. Not very common to find though. Also need the single pick up coil.

 

A couple of wire reconfiguration and a 90-93 TCI or an ignitech unit should be all thats needed.

 

What I am doing by using the RSV rotor requires that the stator be changed to fit rotor. And the RSV stator isn't a direct fit in the 1st gen Venture stator cover. I went this route for a couple of reasons. 1st is by marrying the 1st gen motor to the 2nd gen frame, I needed to interface with the 2nd gen radiator. 2nd gens have thermostat up near the triple trees under the tank. If I used the 1st gen water pump cover, I had to use the plastic elbow out of the pump into the thermostat housing, then out of thermostat housing into lower radiator feed. I was going to use the RSV thermostat unit and not put a thermostat in the 1st gen housing. This was plan A.

 

Then at some point, I saw a water pump for a 2nd gen and had a strong suspicion it would fit the 1st gen block, got it and it fit. This allowed the use of the full 2nd gen radiator connections. But, that chrome housing looked lonely with the other three 1st gen covers on the clutch, stator & middle gear. Decided to get the other three 2nd gen covers and hope they fit. Clutch and middle drive cover fit great. The stator cover however, was different internally and wouldn't accept a 1st gen stator. So this issue drove the decision to get a 2nd gen stator & rotor. The 2nd gen rotor has the huge benefit of having a sprauge style starter clutch in it stock. When I got the 2nd gen rotor I realized it had a different lobe pattern on it than either of the 1st gens. After some talks with Ignitech, they sent me a program for the TCI that should work with the 2nd gen rotor. Haven't got far enough to get motor running to see if that works. 2nd gen rotor has a side benefit of being lighter by a couple of pounds than the 1st gen, which will help motor climb thru RPM's better, but down side of degrading low end take off torque.

 

The issue with the shift shaft is driven by the forward controls on the 2nd gen as compared to the mid controls on a 1st gen. Very different shifter linkages. The 2nd gen uses a larger diameter shift shaft, this is the rod assembly that runs through the block and rotates the shifter drum. 2nd gen is about 4" longer and pivots in a oilite style bearing mounted in the middle drive cover. The size increase in the shaft required a different oil seal on left side of motor, right side isn't sealed as it is internal to block and would have been an easy oversize drilling. The increase in the ID of seal on the left side forced the OD of seal to next size up. There was not enough metal on the block to allow the seal recess to be enlarged. This was solved by using a 1st gen shaft through the motor block, then adapting a 2nd gen shaft cutoff to span the extra distance to middle drive cover pivot point. I had some machine work done to both shafts and the now screw together, just outside the block beyond the shaft seal.

 

On the happy side of this, the 1st gen block is a direct bolt up to the 6 main motor mounts. I am not using the head to frame braces that the RSV has, due to VMax heads don't have provision to mount braces.

 

Then on the easy side, a 1st gen complete fork & triple trees fell into place on the 2nd gen frame, this lightened the front end considerably. I am not using any of the 2nd gen fairings so this swap was fairly clean. Still haven't got a head light setup, but I am leaning towards an LED unit in a VMax style headlight housing. I have the pieces to adapt the VMax bucket onto the forks, just not to that point yet.

 

Rear end has a VMax wheel is the RSV swing arm with a royal star housing with VMax gears in it. I needed the RS housing, or an RSV, to get the rear speedometer sensor mount. I needed this due to using a Royal Star tank with the instrument cluster that sets recessed in the top front of the tank. All the needed gauges are in a 6" diameter cluster. Somewhat compact and more of a retro look.

 

All the above and I have quite a ways to go to pull this all together. Lot of wiring changes, shortening some wire cables since they won't run up into a fairing anymore.

 

So far I haven't encountered a show stopper to all this. The air intakes will be challenging to get working decent. I can't use stock RSV or RS intake covers due to the throat spacing on 1st gen carbs doesn't match the 2nd gen air boots to the filter system. I think a set of 4" pods will work though.

 

Exhaust while difficult, will just be writing a check to have a local exhaust shop bend up a set of tubes to fit in frame. 1st gen tubes won't clear the radiator in front, as well as needing revised geometry to fit in somewhat narrower frame wishbone opening on RSV. They can be made to fit, just need custom down tubes to pull that part together.

 

 

Kids, don't try this at home !!!

 

Gary

Edited June 14, 2013 by dingy
spelling

[lsutley]

Gary,

 

Thanks, for the explanation. I think that the double pickup will work just fine, for me!!!! My bike has been down long enough with all the other fixes and modifications, that are planned.

 

You have taken "custom" to another level.

[dingy]

Have made some progress on RSV/Hybrid this month.

 

I have carbs rebuilt to VMax specs finally. Have a set of short pod air cleaners for it the will fit under fuel tank. RSV or RSTD air boxs would not fit the 1st gen carbs due to different spacing on the carb throats. Use of the pods required a set of air correctors to be installed above the air jet in the venturi. I am fairly sure I will be tweaking the main jets and needle jets to get this running right. I have #160 mains & stock VMax needles in it to start with.

 

Have done some aggressive modification to the front motor mount to be able to get a stock set of Venture 1st gen down tubes in to frame. I have taken the stock RSV front motor mount bracket and removed the cross connection tubes. This left only the main mount plates. I removed the welded on nuts from these and mounted plates outboard of the frame rails. This allowed the front exhaust down tubes room to be installed. By mounting plates outside of frame rails though, the solid motor mounts are not captured between mount plate. The upper mount will use a long bolt and spacer tube that is used on 1st gens. I will need to fab a similar spacer for the lower pair of mounts. After I get exhaust finalized, I will fab another cross brace to tie the to main plates together that will bolt to each plate. This brace will somewhat compensate for the cross tubes I needed to remove.

 

Surprisingly, the radiator will clear the exhaust pipes with only a minor change to the fan mounting bracket.

 

Rear down tubes do clear frame, but just barely.

 

I have a VMax Kerker header that I was hoping I could put on it, but it isn't close to clearing the shock mount on the rear end. I will use the Marks header I have instead. I have a pair of MAC mufflers that will be used on bike. Little longer than I had hoped for, but length is correctable via a band saw. Kerker may fit on Tweety.

 

Have a set of progressive springs for 1st gen front end. Also have a plan to make a set of adjustable block off plates that will be used in place of anti dive valves. Use of a metering valve in block off plates may soften ride somewhat.

 

Motor has stock 1st gen covers that I had sand blasted on it now that were going to be used prior to being able to get 2nd gen covers to work. I am using these so I don't mess up the chrome set while I am working on it.

 

Been working on this for a year now, but very little this summer, rather ride Tweety than work on this. Maybe ready before Oberlin MD in June. Harley's will be in season then, no bag limit.

 

 

Gary

Edited October 26, 2013 by dingy

[etcswjoe]

Was wondering how you were doing on it. Thanks for the update.

[bongobobny]

Hmmm, wondering how well the gas tank is going to clear those air cleaners...

[Bert2006]

Wow, wish I had your talent...going to be a great looking bike.

[dingy]

Hmmm, wondering how well the gas tank is going to clear those air cleaners...

 

There is adequate clearance, at least 1/2" above them. At first all I could find were 4" tall pods, but came across these 3" ones which do clear the tank.

 

Now if I can get throttle cables to in there, they will be close.

 

Gary

[hell yea]

cool bike

[stardbog]

Son of Frankenstein ....

 

 

DITO !!! Man, you are something. Reading post few times cross my mind is it chipper to have 2 bikes ( 2nd Gen and V-Max) than try to build stripped down Frankenstein 2nd gen / v-max or whatever?

Make no mistake, I would love to have one of those in my garage.

Damn, Eck is finally found his match.:rotfl:

My heat down Gary, love to see ( and ride if possible ) your creature once. Good luck!!

Edited November 24, 2013 by stardbog

[dingy]

Few pictures of scooter. Working on frame components today. Removed some of the fairing and AIS brackets that aren't needed. Also three mounting brackets on underside of frame, behind motor that would interfere with the exhausts.

 

Going to move the tank rearward about an inch, so it matches up to the seat better. This will also help level tank and clear carb diaphragm covers.

 

What is the bracket for in the last picture, the one behind the radiator filler neck??

 

Gary

[bongobobny]

Sorry Gary, the trike is put away for the winter, otherwise I could answer that for you! Man, things are moving right along!!

 

Have you considered about 5 to 6 PSI of air pressure to pop that dent in the gas tank?? I wouldn't go any higher but that should be all the pressure you need.

 

Right now I'm considering looking for a 1700cc Vmax motor for Goldie and a landing gear setup...

[dingy]

Sorry Gary, the trike is put away for the winter, otherwise I could answer that for you! Man, things are moving right along!!

 

Have you considered about 5 to 6 PSI of air pressure to pop that dent in the gas tank?? I wouldn't go any higher but that should be all the pressure you need.

 

Right now I'm considering looking for a 1700cc Vmax motor for Goldie and a landing gear setup...

 

This is a junk tank. I have another tank I bought a few months back. UPS damaged this tank worse than it was when I got it shipped back from Ace High Leathers. It was insured, so I ended up getting a replacement. All the side covers, valve and carb covers are just temporary ones I had. I don't want to mangle the good set while I am working on it.

 

1700 motor would be a major undertaking, I looked into that when I was first starting this project last year. The motor mount points are way different.

 

Gary

[Venturous Randy]

Gary, with all your knowledge about the 1st gens and learning more about the 2nd gens, what would have to be modified to use a 1st gen rear shock on a 2nd gen? I know there is a difference in how the shocks mount, but is this something that could be overcome by making some kind of adapter? 1st gen shocks are readily available because they hardly ever fail, and everyone knows about the problems on the 2nd gen shocks.

Is there much difference in the mechanical leverages on one vs the other?

RandyA

[dingy]

Gary, with all your knowledge about the 1st gens and learning more about the 2nd gens, what would have to be modified to use a 1st gen rear shock on a 2nd gen? I know there is a difference in how the shocks mount, but is this something that could be overcome by making some kind of adapter? 1st gen shocks are readily available because they hardly ever fail, and everyone knows about the problems on the 2nd gen shocks.

Is there much difference in the mechanical leverages on one vs the other?

RandyA

 

I was thinking about trying that on the Hybrid, gave up on that plan.

 

Here is a link to what I was trying. Main problem is the 1st gen shock is longer than the 2nd gen shock. Add to that, the 2nd gen has a yoke mount on bottom that wraps around the relay arm lower shock mount, while the 1st gen has the opposite type mount on the bottom.

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=74527

 

1st picture is a 1st gen, 2nd is a 2nd gen.

 

Not saying it can't be done, but it didn't seem like a good thing to be McGyvering. There is the possibility that the lower eye mount on the 1st gen shock could be machined off, then the yoke bracket from the lower 2nd gen attached. But then there would still be the length issue.

 

Gary