slow cranking first gen

[adventurer 08]

My first gen starts every time quick but cranks slow like a bad battery. Battery checks good, cables are clean. Is there a common problem to look at first? Battery is not new.

[friesman]

Start by cleaning all connections and grounds as a ground connection can drive you crazy....

Also,

1-there is a known hot start issue with the G1 bikes, as Yamaha used a light gauge cabling from the battery to starter and to ground causing a loss of current. Most replace cables with heavier gauge and the issue disappears.

 

2- the G1 bikes use a starter with 2 brushes and over time the brushes get a bit worn or dirty and cant crank as much as they could when new. PPl are replacing the starter with a 4 brush starter from a vmax or the newer G2 Ventures to solve the issue.

 

Brian

[cabreco]

Welcome to the club. 1st Gens are notorious for the slow hot cranks

 

Friesman suggestion is the 1st step, if you are trying to avoid relacing the starter. Next change the battery cables to a much thicker gauge!

[Snaggletooth]

Yep, long time issue. There are pretty much 4 steps to totally cure the problem.

 

The heavier battery cable upgrade.

 

The starter ground mod documented by Dingy (only needed for 2 brush starters)

 

Replacing the 2 brush starter with a later model 4 brush. (You can skip step 2)

 

Changing the battery to a DEKA AGM.

 

Once you get these done you can be happy for a long time.

[timgray]

I strongly recommend changing the started to the 2nd gen starter (4 brush model) this alone will solve the problem.

 

You can run on the small stock battery cables if you change the starter.

[uncledj]

I've had the same issue since I've owned my first gen. Has NEVER failed to start for me though.

I was planning on doing a 4 brush starter upgrade this Winter. I have an 87, and I've read that the second gen starters are 4 brush and will work. Is this true across the board, or are there specific years I should look for.....

I'll start cruising e-bay soon as I know what will bolt right in and work the way it's supposed to.

Thanks.

[KenP]

I've had the same issue since I've owned my first gen. Has NEVER failed to start for me though.

I was planning on doing a 4 brush starter upgrade this Winter. I have an 87, and I've read that the second gen starters are 4 brush and will work. Is this true across the board, or are there specific years I should look for.....

I'll start cruising e-bay soon as I know what will bolt right in and work the way it's supposed to.

Thanks.

 

This is the site I bought mine back in 2010 for my 84 MK I (has an 86 1300cc engine). It was a 4 brush, and I think it was $82.00 with shipping. It fit a 95,96,98 VMAX-1200. Did that plus the 4 gauge starter cables and new AGM battery. Haven't had a problem since....

 

http://stores.ebay.com/Rareelectrical

[rstacy]

I strongly recommend changing the started to the 2nd gen starter (4 brush model) this alone will solve the problem.

 

You can run on the small stock battery cables if you change the starter.

 

+1

I did this and only this. All starting issues hot or cold are gone. However, it is still a good idea to make sure that your starter connections are clean.

 

Prior to the starter change, mine never failed to start. It just took a bit.

I wasn't that worried about it until someone posted that it might stall in the middle of an intersection and a few seconds could seem like minutes.

I changed the starter and now I can run it all day, shut it down, and just bump the starter switch.

Its off and running again.

[GeorgeS]

Might also be the starter solinoid, they are known to go bad slowly over time.

Only fix, really is to simply replace it.

Some guys have replaced the OEM solinoid with small car starter solinoids.

I would first pull the Neg bat. cable at the front right corner of the crankcase ( near the water pump) Pull out that bolt and clean it.

Also, Re - Solder, both ends of both Battery cables.

Check your Run-Stop Switch on the right handle bar, for High Resistance across that switch. Because All current for the TCI runs thru that switch, High resistance here can Lower the Voltage to the Ignition system.

 

Also, check your Ignition Fuse, Mounting posts. they are know to go bad. Again this cause's high resistance across that fuse, lowering the voltage to the ignition system.

 

There is a Main Grounding Point, located, under the Upper Left side fairing. Its hard to get to, but should be checked for loose nut, and or corrosion. This Point is ground for everything on the bike, ( Except the starter motor )

 

Open up, and check, and clean, Both of the Large Plugs that come off the cables that run to the Rectifyer/Regulator Unit. Especially the White plug, from the Stator to the Regulator, This is a KNOWN TROUBLE SPOT, if its still installed, most of us cut out that plug, and solder the wires together !!

[timgray]

Fuse box replacement will make most gremlins disappear. I did not believe some of the guys here that it would make a difference until I decided to do mine and had most of the old fuse holders fall apart in my hands.

[dingy]

A few pictures attached that may help you with starter shopping.

 

1st one shows housing of a 2 & 4 brush starter. Lower case does not have the 4 screws at the mid line around the outside. The 4 brush starters have the coils epoxied in. On a 2 brush starter, 4 screws go thru case and hold coils in place. Only one is visible on upper starter, right in middle. This is for stock starters. I am not sure about aftermarket ones.

 

2 brush & 4 brush starter plates shown 2nd & 3rd pictures.

 

4th picture shows difference between 4 gauge, fine strand welding cable & a stock 8 gauge cable. Copper on welding cable is larger dia. than overall 8 gauge cable. I didn't nick wires, came from McMaster like that.

 

Lat picture shows starter on motor in frame. Not real easy to get to.

 

Link below to mod for starter ground path, which is what doomed the 2 brush starter. 4 brush has same design flaw, but doesn't seem to manifest it as bad as 2 brush.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=46890

 

Next is link link to what's inside a starter solenoid if you are interested.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=64567

 

Gary

[adventurer 08]

Thanks for the info.

[Prairiehammer]

Another way to identify 2 brush vs. 4 brush externally:

 

Originally Yamaha used a 2 brush starter from 83-90 in the Venture. The 91-93 Venture and RSV used a 4 brush starter.

Upgrading to a 4 brush in the earlier bikes may have taken place......so how do you know?

 

If you examine the end plate of the starter and its a Mitsuba SM-229 series....its a 2 brush.

If its a Mitsuba SM-13 series...its a 4 brush.

 

Mitsuba builds starters for many manufacturers....some with different teeth number on the gear, direction of rotation etc...so don't think any used SM-229 or SM-13 model will fit your bike.

(Thanks to Neil McRobbie)

[saddlebum]

Heck its all in the timing. as soon as the engine stops cranking usual at a peak compression point release and quickly rehit the start button, works every time, almost!!!

but at least you don't have to buy 2 feet of expensive wire or replace or rework starter,,,leaving more time for BEER.

 

PS if that don't work have another beer by than the engine will have cooled of enough to start. Did I mention AGM battery's cut into the beer fund too.

 

Oh I almost forgot If you are away from home,,,, only shut off your bike at Icecream stands, by the time you finish your icecream it will crank.

Now does that not sound so much better than doing all that extra work or spending money on useless stuff you can't eat or drink:thumbsup2:

[MiCarl]

This is the site I bought mine back in 2010 for my 84 MK I (has an 86 1300cc engine). It was a 4 brush, and I think it was $82.00 with shipping. It fit a 95,96,98 VMAX-1200. Did that plus the 4 gauge starter cables and new AGM battery. Haven't had a problem since....

 

http://stores.ebay.com/Rareelectrical

 

I just ordered one from them about an hour ago. $90.77 with shipping.

 

UPS already sent me tracking info.

[Bill W.]

I just ordered one from them about an hour ago. $90.77 with shipping.

 

UPS already sent me tracking info.

 

 

Wow!!! You must've gotten the next to last one. They now want $129 before shipping!! Maybe I'll re-build...

[MiCarl]

Wow!!! You must've gotten the next to last one. They now want $129 before shipping!! Maybe I'll re-build...

 

Showing more than 10 in stock. It's the V-max, not a 2nd gen Venture starter.

 

eBay listing

[Bill W.]

I'm going to profess my ignorance here; if the VMax starter will fit a Venture, why is it almost $40 cheaper than a Venture starter?? 4 brushes vs. two? It will only fit certain year Ventures? Someone please enlighten me, inquiring minds want to know!!

 

 

:confused07::confused07:

[MiCarl]

I'm going to profess my ignorance here; if the VMax starter will fit a Venture, why is it almost $40 cheaper than a Venture starter?? 4 brushes vs. two? It will only fit certain year Ventures? Someone please enlighten me, inquiring minds want to know!!

 

 

:confused07::confused07:

 

- SIGH -

 

I ordered based on the picture and Dingy's description of the 4 brush case not having screws holding the magnets.

 

Looking at their specs and Prariehammer's model info it appears I ordered a 2 brush starter.

 

It'll be here next week. I'll let you know what it ends up being. BTW, their current listings for Venture starters also appear to be 2 brush models.

[Flyinfool]

Well Dingy did have the disclaimer that he is not sure about aftermarket starters.

Hope you ended up with a 4 brush.

 

I wonder what a new 4 brush costs from Sky_Doc????

[MiCarl]

My starter came in. It's just like the photo, I pulled the end off and it is indeed a 4 brush starter.

 

The label on it says:

MADE IN TAIWAN

A0A0093/09040048

 

Looking again at the sellers ad:

Replaces Part Numbers & Specifications

 

MITSUBA SM-229C, SM13279

YAMAHA 1FK-81800-10-00

 

I missed before (or the seller updated) that this is also listed as replacing the MITSUBA SM13279 which I think is the MITSUBA 4 brush per Prariehammer's earlier post.

 

Of course 2 brush or 4 won't be the whole story. It's going on the Venture sometime this winter and will post the outcome when I do.

 

It's a V-Max starter so it's black powder coated. If the color is important to you you might want a different starter.

 

Seller eBay listing

[MiCarl]

V-Max starter is in. I ran the bike until the cooling fan kicked on, which is hotter than it normally sees. Starter cranked like mad at 5, 10 and 30 minute "soak" intervals. Quite happy with it.

[kevin-vic-b.c.]

V-Max starter is in. I ran the bike until the cooling fan kicked on, which is hotter than it normally sees. Starter cranked like mad at 5, 10 and 30 minute "soak" intervals. Quite happy with it.

 

My question with this is.... one of the pictures posted showed the started very clearly but with the exhaust off the front of the motor. Awesome photos presented... I love this place!

 

The question is.... Does the exhaust Have to be removed to re and re the starter or was this just a convenient photo op ?

[MiCarl]

I didn't remove the exhaust.

 

I unbolted the thermostat housing from the engine, Pulled the elbow out of the water pump, removed the hose from the thermostat to the radiator and the hose from the radiator to the bypass valve. This lets you get the starter bolts out and just enough wiggle room to fish the starter through. Of course I drained the coolant before I started.

 

I used a drift to tap the old starter back out of it's hole behind the side cover.

 

Putting in the new one was equally tough. I don't think it's possible to bind the gear but I put a wrench on the alternator rotor bolt and rocked things back and forth to be sure. I tapped the new starter home holding the head of a hammer and tapping (with a pushing motion, not swinging) the handle against the end of the starter.

[adventurer 08]

Carl, do you have the part number on the stater you ordered? I want to get the right one.

john