Sloppy Front End

[ablumny]

Hi riders!

 

My 03 2nd gen is giving me trouble. The front end is a mess. It feels sloppy and unsettling all the time. In a lean, the front end is wobbly. I put it on a lift, grabbed the front wheel, don't feel any head bearing clicking. I don't get any bounce back when I send the bars to one side or the other. The tire is perfect, no cupping, the wheel is rotating as it should be.

 

Back on the ground, and facing down hill, I let it roll a bit, hit the front brake and I can feel a click. I don't feel the forks bounce unusually. I have a new Works rear shock which is fine.

 

I've got 21k on it. Never did either the bearings of fork work. Anyone want to come to long island and help replace it all ? Any ideas.

[XV1100SE]

I'll post the standard items....

1) condition of tires - any tire older than 6 or 7 years should be replaced. Look at DOT code for year/week of mfr

2) do you have a Carbon One lift adapter and lift? If so, do the "steering head test"

a) with bike on lift, grasp the forks and see if there is any play. If so, you need to either tighten the steering head, lube the steering head bearings, or replace them

b) with bike on lift, do the bounce test of the steering head and also see if it will hold in position with slightly turned. Bounce test is to start the handlebars moving see if it bounces off the stop. Also, with the handle bars turned about 45 degrees, let go and it should not move on its own. If not problem in (a) but the handle bars bounce or move on their own, see in the technical section on tightening the steering head (I've done mine twice... at 10,000km intervals)

3) what maintenance have you done on the bike since you got it other than oil changes? Everything lubed and adjusted on schedule? You can see in the maintenance schedule in your owners manual (or downloaded from this site) how often the steering head is to be re-greased

 

4) if your tires are in good shape (check wear while you have the bike on the lift), what brand/model do you have front and back? What are your tire pressures? (35 psi front, 40 psi rear - recommended pressures are on a label inside the trunk lid)

 

5) check you fork and shock air pressures. Do you use a zero loss pump ? Make sure the shocks are zero pressure, test... then adjust to your liking and make sure they are equal

 

6) rear shock okay? Check the bottom of the shock to see if it has or is leaking. A bad rear shock will affect front end handling (as will a bad rear tire)

 

Hope this helps. Post symptoms from your tests above and if it is still an issue after doing the adjustments/tire replacements... you'll get more expert advice.

[ablumny]

Thanks for the reply.ive reviewed all the standard tests to draw the conclusions I listed. Have a carbon one liftsdapter , great product , I keep tire pressure constant and these Dunlop e3's are a year old with no abnormal signs of wear. I have a small hand pump made for the task, each shock has zero psi however when I tested.

 

I've done no maintenance on the front end, ever. Ill put it back on the lift tomorrow. I know there's a prob there somewhere .....

 

Thx

[Miles]

Just a few added notes here: I think you might want to check, and then re-check, that new rear shock installation. Something may not be right there, or may be loose. Generally, but not always, a bad feeling front end can be attributed to a problem in the rear of the bike.

 

While you say in your second post that you are running I year old Dunlop E-3's, and you say the tire pressue is constant...that doesn't say much. It is constant at...what pressures? While my esteemed colleague from Ontario suggests using the OEM recommended tires pressures of 35 psi in front, and 40 psi on the rear...I would raise that front pressure to either 38 psi or up to as high as 40 psi.

 

I am a tire (nut), and have the time, equipment, and dollars to be able to test tires and pressures. On my last ride, last 10 days on the road, but only 5 days of actual riding, I covered 4217 miles, with i year old Dunlop E-3's, and I checked my tire pressures every second day, due to altitude changes and road temps. I have found that 38 psi on the front, and 40 on the rear, work best for me. But as a caviat, I will say that I run my bike at very high speeds, and ride for 12 to 16 hours straight each day. Sometimes a solid 24 hour ride if I have to.

 

IMHO (ha ha), I would look at the rear of your bike.

[Flyinfool]

Thanks for the reply.ive reviewed all the standard tests to draw the conclusions I listed. Have a carbon one liftsdapter , great product , I keep tire pressure constant and these Dunlop e3's are a year old with no abnormal signs of wear. I have a small hand pump made for the task, each shock has zero psi however when I tested.

 

I've done no maintenance on the front end, ever. Ill put it back on the lift tomorrow. I know there's a prob there somewhere .....

 

Thx

 

When you say EACH shock has zero pressure?? Unless you have progressive springs in the front I thought you want some pressure in them.

[XV1100SE]

When you say EACH shock has zero pressure?? Unless you have progressive springs in the front I thought you want some pressure in them.

 

You can run 0 psi on the OEM shocks. Personal preference for front pressure. Based on riding type, weight of rider/passenger...

 

.....While my esteemed colleague from Ontario suggests using the OEM recommended tires pressures of 35 psi in front, and 40 psi on the rear...

 

Thanks for the "esteemed colleague" reference. I am by no means a mechanic nor anywhere near an expert on the Venture. My knowledge comes from what I've read on VR.org. My answers to posts (like this thread) are what I understand the basic trouble shooting points and common solutions. Suggesting Yamaha recommended tire pressures "zero's" them out or sets a baseline for resolving the issue. Going with higher than recommended pressure might "resolve" the issue but could also mask the real problem.

 

My profession is in I.T. for Toyota where we manufacture cars (work for a car company but I don't build them). I'll do basic maintenance on my bike and cars but other than that prefer to work from instructions or with assistance.

 

I still agree with you that the issue is probably in the rear end if you've ruled out the steering head. Could be related to rear shock (possible it is defective?). I'll throw this out there too though... have you lowered the bike at all? Levelling links?

 

Million Mile Rider - What about other suspension parts in the rear? There is more than just the shock back there. Possible it is the swingarm or wheel bearings? Loose bolt somewhere in the back end?

 

(Million Mile Rider - I did NOT take offense at anything you said... don't think you said anything offensive at all. Just wanted to make it clear that wasn't the reason for my comments in response)

[ablumny]

Thanks everyone.

 

I am also fixated on proper tire maintenance, cars and bike, bike more sofor obvious reasons. I'm a big boy so I keep the front at 36-38# and the rear at 45. I check before every ride other then short trips.

 

Yea, I thought about checking that rear shock install and while I'm looking back there, check what I can related to suspension. I'll recheck front components again this weekend.

 

I'll have updated facts afterwards.

 

Thx again.

[Red1]

Just my recent experience - Checking air pressures before I left for MN for the PIP, I put the front and rear tires at 36 psi. I had the rear of the bike loaded pretty good. But I thought I'd put a little pressure in the front shocks before I left anyway. It seemed to make the front end a little squirrely, so at the first gas stop I let all the air out of the fronts and increased the rear shock pressure to 45 psi. Made a noticeable improvement in the handling. If you're a big guy (I'm 160) - I'd try increasing rear tire and shock pressure to "lift" the rear of the bike, shifting more weight to the front tire.

[ablumny]

Had the bike on a jack all day, checking everything over again.

 

- few month old rear Works shock is still mounted properly and both bolts still tight. Not leaking, no issues. Links are properly installed still.

- jump up and down on the seat, no unexpected rear bounce or noises.

- seat is tight

- couldn't do much with the rear end suspension other then spinning the tire, pushing the rear end left and right, up and down looking for obvious loose parts, clicks, noises. Nothing.

- Front wheel rotates fine, doesn't have any abnormal movement.

- front tire is evenly worn, no cupping, no visual issues. Spun it as fast as possible, looked for abnormal surface run out, nada

- both tires holding the same psi from last weekends check

- grabbed the front wheel, lifted up and down looking for movement in the head bearing, nope.

- tossed the handlebars to one side, did get an unexpected bouncy back this time. Tossed them to the other side, kinda the same but harder to say with all then cables and hoses preventing complete steering lock.

 

So I decide that the steering head bearing might need to be tightened. I've done this before using a "cheat" method I read about here. I take a small headlong punch and tap the bottom nut. I go just more then a 1/4 turn. The is to side bounce test is much better.

 

I don't understand the top nut. I thought it was used to lock down the bottom nut. However there are small "straps" (thing with the dot on it in the picture below) that span one nut to the other. They seem to be able to be prayed away and the top nut rotates kind of freely, being held in position and inline with the bottom nut by this "strap".

 

Anyway, I run 45# in the rear, 40#in the front, no air in the front shock. Out for a ride and there is noticeable improvement. I'll take a longer ride tomorrow to see for sure.

 

So I point to the steering head bearings. Not sure how long my cheat fix will last. Anyone know what that top/bottom. It is all about?

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/K56CNIhHFcEGZFWJkknABdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

 

Thx

Andrew

Edited September 9, 2012 by ablumny

[XV1100SE]

The nut on the top of the steering head (27mm) has to be loosened before the adjustment and then tightened afterwards.

 

When you tighten the steeering head the two pieces move together and there is a "locking tab" holding them together.

 

I find moving the steering head to the left has the free-est movement. Turning to the right (for lack of a better word) binds. What I do is turn the front wheel half way to the left and let go. If it falls further on its own it needs to be tightened. If it holds then it is okay.

 

The last couple times I had to adjust mine there was 10,000km between times.

[ablumny]

Hmmm. The top nut should be tight against the bottom, makes sense but mine is not. I don't see how this is possible as the tab or strap as I described it seems to prevent independent movement of each nut.

 

Went for a longer ride. In the beginning, I'd swear it was better, at the end, felt like it was sloppy again. I'll look at the nuts again.

Edited September 11, 2012 by ablumny

[playboy]

As I understand the Cheat or short cut method of adjusting the steering head. You need to loosen the top cap nut first the chrome one under the handle bars. Then tap the two nuts with the locking tabs. Yes both will turn they can't help it. When this adjustment is done per the manual you would remove the top locking nut and washer and only torque the lower nut to spec. then reinstall the other nut and locking washer. This would obviously take a lot more work just to get to them hence the short cut. But after you have tapped the two locking nuts the chrome nut under the handle bars needs to be re tightened.

 

 

re read your last post and there is a rubber washer between the locking nuts if I'm reading the manual right. This is probably the gap your seeing between the nuts. I first thought you were talking about a gap under the chrome nut.

Edited September 11, 2012 by playboy

[ablumny]

I havethe Clymer manual.

https://picasaweb.google.com/116811512302801092027/VentureStuff#5787072008259027042

 

I see the stack up now. playboy,your description makes sense but The cheat method doesnt allow for removal of the lock washer with the tab then. I'll look around the forum again on the subject. Thx

[XV1100SE]

.... I'll look around the forum again on the subject. Thx

 

Here is the link to the short cut - http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=511

 

Service manual - http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20228

 

Owners and Service manuals - http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1828

 

Parts diagram - http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2477

[XV1100SE]

...but The cheat method doesnt allow for removal of the lock washer with the tab then. ...

 

You don't remove the lock washer/tab.

 

In simple steps...with the bike on the lift and the front wheel clear of the ground :

 

1) Loosen the nut on top of the steering head (27mm wrench) (lefty loosey - counter clockwise)

2) Turn the handle bars to the left (as in front wheel pointing to the left)

3) Test front wheel by holding it halfway between straight ahead and full left turn and let go. If it moves, it needs to be tighted. If it holds on its own it is probably tight enough.

4) If the steering wheel test shows it is too loose, with a flat blade screw driver and mallet, line up the notch in the lock nut and hit it in a clockwise direction

5) Test front wheel by holding it halfway between straight ahead and full left turn and let go. If it moves, tighten some more. If it holds on its own it is probably tight enough.

6) Tighten the nut on top of the steering head (27mm wrench). I take turns tightening from the left side of the bike, then the right (righty tighty - clockwise)

 

If this doesn't cure the problem... something else is wrong.

[XV1100SE]

How did you make out?

[reddevilmedic]

so let me get this right.......the nut behind the wheel is loose?

[ablumny]

Nut behind the wheel is loose? Totally!

 

What a week, pressu valve on boiler pops, floods basement. Clean that up, fix problem , 4 days later, cesspool backs up, floods basement...finished basement! Now I need two new cesspools. Seems like the original 40yo block construction cesspools have had it.

 

Anyway.... Got the bike back on the jack. I never focused on the chrome nut. My bad, very bad as the nut was loose. I decided to pinch down the two lock nuts a bit more after doing the handle bar test again, then cranked down the chrome nut. Went for a test ride, definite difference , however still squirrelly in a lean. Back on the jack, change focus to back end. It appears the back tire has some kind of cupping issue. What a mess.

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/116811512302801092027/VentureStuff#5788838455555081122

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/116811512302801092027/VentureStuff#5788838424749479906

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/116811512302801092027/VentureStuff#5788838481891241810

 

I think this tire was made 48th week of 2009? Too long for dunlop to warrant?

 

Thanks for all the advice. I think the rear tire needs to be replaced and I'll pay attention to the head bearings ...

[Ventureless]

Sorry for bringing up an old thread. But I am having a sloppy feeling in my front end. I have done the tests and things feel ok. Front end feels very loose. Recent maintenance includes new Hagon rear shock, new Pirelli rear tire, and new rear pads and rotor. It felt great for a few weeks and then the front end started feeling extremely loose. The reason I dug up this thread was because it talks about the locking tab on the steering head nuts. Looking at the pics it seems the locking tab should be locked in both nuts. Mine is not. It is in a groove on the top nut and then rests on the outside of the bottom nut. Now I am thinking maybe it should be in a groove on the bottom as well. I can post a pic when I get home today. Just some other factors. Dunlop E3 on the front (soon to be replaced but still in good shape). New Hagon shock (Everything is tight and seems to be working with it). Leveling links (Some have said with the aftermarket shock they have removed the links). Front tire pressure right around 42. Rear tire pressure right around 42. Tire pressures have been at those pressures since I got the bike. 0 PSI in the front shocks (been that way since I got the bike). And when I say loose, I mean very light feeling. Slow speeds now take more effort. Curves still feel ok (no wobble or anything). Straight line a pain in the a^^. Feels like the bike really wants to wander. I am going to try to tighten up the head nuts this weekend but other than that, any suggestions.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Ventureless

[Condor]

Sorry for bringing up an old thread. But I am having a sloppy feeling in my front end. I have done the tests and things feel ok. .

 

It seems to me that Y had a problem with the steering head lower bearing race breaking loose, and not being able to adjust the play. This was a long time ago, and it might have only been the one incidence?? If I remember correctly the member could adjust the bearings and they would loosen up after riding a while. I'm not saying this is your problem, but it's one more thing to look at....